{"id":280455,"date":"2023-08-29T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-08-29T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/"},"modified":"2025-05-06T17:02:20","modified_gmt":"2025-05-06T21:02:20","slug":"deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/","title":{"rendered":"Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It: Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Can deconstructing faith be healthy? Authors Sean McDowell and John Marriott explore the realities of deconstruction\u2014and the need for each of us to wrestle with doubts, questions, and incongruities toward robust faith.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>Can I prove to you 100 percent that Jesus rose from the dead? Nope. I can\u2019t and neither can anybody else. Do I think that there is good reason to think that He rose from the dead? I do. Do I think that there are counterarguments? I think that there are, but I find the reasons more persuasive than the counter arguments, and so I choose, based on that, to entrust myself to Jesus every day and try and walk out my life as submitting to His Lordship. &#8212; John Marriott<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Can deconstructing faith be healthy? Authors Sean McDowell and John Marriott explore the realities of deconstruction\u2014and the need for each of us to wrestle with doubts, questions, and incongruities toward robust faith. Can I prove to you 100 percent tha&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/45bfec2a-1dce-4a61-a4da-b154011de7b8\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:53","filesize":"27.40M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-08-29 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2263],"podcast_series":[8670],"cwp_profile":[9849,3605],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280455","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-deconstructing","podcast_series-set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-john-marriott","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280455\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280455\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Aiz65GTelE\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/\">Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It: Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/deconstructing-your-faith-without-sinking-it-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/embed\/#?secret=Aiz65GTelE\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It: Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Aiz65GTelE\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012678"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/45bfec2a-1dce-4a61-a4da-b154011de7b8\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:29:53"],"filesize":["27.40M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Connect with Sean McDowell at <a href=\"http:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a> and listen to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">other programs <\/a>from him on FamilyLife Today.<br \/>\nFind more on John Marriott at <a href=\"http:\/\/johnmarriott.org\/\">johnmarriott.org<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">Set Adrift<\/a>\"\u00a0in our shop<br \/>\nListen to other podcasts by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">John Marriott<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-29.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean McDowell and John Marriott<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your<\/p>\n<p>Faith (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 29, 2023<\/p>\n<p>John: Can I prove to you 100 percent that Jesus rose from the dead? Nope. I can\u2019t and neither can anybody else. Do I think that there is good reason to think that He rose from the dead? I do. Do I think that there are counterarguments? I think that there are, but I find the reasons more persuasive than the counter arguments, and so I choose, based on that, to entrust myself to Jesus every day and try and walk out my life as submitting to His Lordship.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what You\u2019re called to. You\u2019re not called to \u201cI\u2019ll only be a Christian when all of my doubts are gone and when I have everything nailed down,\u201d because if that\u2019s the case, you\u2019ll only be a Christian for about 20 minutes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, here\u2019s a stat that will shock you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014that I just read. \u201c2018 Pine Tops Foundation claim that over one million young people will leave the faith per year for the next 30 years.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s staggering and depressing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That means that 35 million walking away from the faith by 2050. Pretty scary, huh?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s terrible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, we\u2019re going to talk about it today. We have to understand this. We have to know what this is about. We have two experts. I would call them the experts in the studio. [Laughter] We actually have had both of them in individually but never together, so this could get really interesting. Sean McDowell and John Marriott, both from California. Both teach at Biola [University]. You guys don\u2019t cross paths very often there, do you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: We do now. Writing this book together made it much more intentional.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It should have happened long ago, that\u2019s for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith. I love the title. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>John: It\u2019s good to be back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How did you two end up saying, \u201cLet\u2019s write a book together about this topic?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Well, I was doing an interview for the Think Biblically podcast that Sean and Scott Ray host, and then afterwards Sean and I got talking about the need for trying to help young Christian college, high school age students think through how to remain in the faith when they don\u2019t really feel like the faith that\u2019s been handed to them really maybe represents what they think is an authentic way of living like Jesus wants them to. And it was from that conversation that the book has eventually come to pass.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: One of the reasons I wanted to do this is because John has written\u2014is this the fifth book on deconstruction?<\/p>\n<p>John: It is, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: He has done the most or some of the most academic, careful research on why young people question their faith, leave the faith, and I have benefited from, read a lot of your stuff, interviewed you. You came with the idea, and I said, \u201cWell, there are other books written on this,\u201d and this unique angle that I think we\u2019re taking, I thought, \u201cWow, this has been the heart of my ministry. So you can bring the research, I have some stories; this sounds like a perfectly needed book for parents and for young people right now who are really questioning their faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. When I saw that you two came together to write this book, I thought, \u201cNo better two guys to do this.\u201d And when I say \u2018experts,\u2019 you guys really have studied this and looked at this. The stat I obviously read was from your book, so you know the research, but talk about what is happening. Deconstruction, deconversion is a pretty well-known term now. Nobody even used that term five years ago. So what is going on?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well maybe we should start there, Dave. John, will you reintroduce the term and explain what that is?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, sure. To deconvert is when someone says, \u201cI once believed a particular faith.\u201d It could be Islam; it could be Christianity. \u201cBut I don\u2019t believe it anymore. Not only do I not believe the truth claims, but I have now removed myself out from the community, and I don\u2019t carry that label anymore. I wouldn\u2019t call myself a Christian. I\u2019ve really undone my entire conversion.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Deconstruction is sometimes associated with deconversion, and often people who deconvert\u2014it\u2019s the end of their deconstruction. But deconstruction doesn\u2019t necessarily even have to end in a deconversion. It can be a rethinking, sort of a \u201cI\u2019ve been handed this faith. It\u2019s the faith of my parents, it\u2019s the faith of my church or the denomination I\u2019m a part of. And you know, my entire life I\u2019ve accepted it, I\u2019ve lived it out, I\u2019ve kind of unquestionably gone along with it and accepted all the tenets, but now I may be a little bit more self-reflective.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI\u2019ve intellectually come of age. Some things are not lining up with me and the way I see the life that Jesus calls us to, and so I\u2019m going to rethink some of this. I\u2019m going to take it apart, maybe lay the parts on the table, and evaluate whether or not I think some of the things I\u2019ve inherited really reflect the way of Jesus.\u201d So that would be a deconstruction.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: There\u2019s a lot of debate about what the term \u2018deconstruction\u2019 even means.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: If you google it or go on YouTube or talk to people, some will say deconstruction means deconversion. But when John and I started talking, one of the things I appreciate is how he carefully said, \u201cLook, deconstruct is two words. \u2018De\u2019 like in \u2018destroy\u2019 is to break down. But \u2018construct\u2019 is to build back up. So deconstruction doesn\u2019t just have to be a negative process.<\/p>\n<p>Now there are some other Christian writers who will disagree with us and say, \u201cYou should never use \u2018deconstruction\u2019 in a positive term; use a different term for it.\u201d We differ with them. Partly we\u2019re saying, \u201cPeople are talking about deconstruction. This is how some people are using it, so let\u2019s define our terms and help take away the stigma. If somebody feels like their faith is slipping away, that they\u2019re going through a period of questioning, it doesn\u2019t have to result in abandoning your faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So we set out to say, \u201cHere\u2019s just some parameters and some guidelines to deconstruct well with the goal of ending with a healthy faith that you really own, that lines up with what Jesus taught.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. As I read your book, it was one of the first\u2014maybe the only\u2014you guys would know\u2014book written that made me think deconstruction isn\u2019t a bad thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Necessarily.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It can end up in deconversion. It often can end up in a better, stronger faith, and I haven\u2019t seen many people saying that. It\u2019s like \u201cDon\u2019t freak out if your child or your spouse is deconstructing.\u201d It could end up to be a really positive thing, right?<\/p>\n<p>John: It can. It can be very fearful for those of us who are watching from the outside, because we don\u2019t know where it\u2019s going to end up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, it makes me freak out as a mom.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, and I think Sean can speak to that, right? When you went through your period of struggling\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, I did.<\/p>\n<p>John: --your dad was okay, but your mom\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, it was a very different response. That\u2019s exactly right. So if you have a spouse or friend deconstructing, the first thing I would say is, \u201cTell me what you mean by deconstruction.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A lot of where it ends up is the process we go through with it, and the attitude and approach. So some people have been so hurt by the church that they are intentionally shedding their faith and want to get rid of it. There\u2019s nothing I can do to stop that person unless they have a heart change.<\/p>\n<p>There are a lot of people just saying, \u201cI have questions about this theological idea. I don\u2019t know how to make sense of this. I am questioning my faith. How do I proceed wisely?\u201d So it doesn\u2019t have to be a negative thing, but we have to carefully define our terms. You\u2019re right, with my dad the glass is 99.9 percent full. He just is. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So when I told him I was questioning my faith, I didn\u2019t use the term \u2018deconstruction\u2019 but looking back I might have used it to describe that process.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old were you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think I was probably 19 years old.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: A sophomore in college. My mom\u2019s response is very different, partly because she\u2019s a mom. She just freaked out and thought she failed in some fashion, which I understand. So those of us who are questioning things\u2014John and I talk about this a lot\u2014-we have to keep in mind how our questioning affects those around us. It really has to go both ways if we\u2019re going to do this well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, so what did your mom say versus your dad? What did that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know what your dad said. You put that in the book, but I don\u2019t know what your mom said.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Well, you know, in defense of my mom, I told my mom first, and then looking back, she I\u2019m sure had had a conversation with my dad, [Laughter] so he was able to emotionally prep.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So there is a difference there, but I have never been an angry rebel, so to speak. I just told my mom, \u201cI\u2019m not sure if I believe this stuff. I don\u2019t know,\u201d and she was just completely taken aback, didn\u2019t know how to respond, somewhat speechless. She didn\u2019t say anything wrong; she just was completely taken aback by this and \u201ccould not imagine that this would happen on her watch\u201d kind of thing. So she didn\u2019t have to come back and apologize for anything, but she just was that concerned, worried mom.<\/p>\n<p>My dad\u2019s like, \u201cHey, seek after truth, love you no matter what, let\u2019s go get some coffee.\u201d And I actually think kids need both. They need someone who\u2019s concerned, to see that motional side, and someone who\u2019s like, \u201cAlright, let\u2019s do this. What\u2019s truth? Let\u2019s figure it out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you started saying to ask those questions: \u201cWhat do you mean by that?\u201d Is that what you\u2019re saying to start with when your kids come and say, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t even know if I believe this stuff?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Sure. My daughter is 12 years old, and the other night she said to me, \u201cYou know, Dad, I don\u2019t think I believe in heaven.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oooh.<\/p>\n<p>John: My heart sunk. I\u2019m putting her to bed; we\u2019ve prayed together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you say, \u201cI\u2019ve written a lot of books about this.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cYou need to read one of them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: No, I didn\u2019t, but I did what Sean said. I kind of tried to gather myself, because when she said that it was really troubling because in a moment\u2019s time I projected where things were going to be going in her life in the next ten years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>John: And that was really disturbing to me, but I said, \u201cSo, can you tell me what you mean when you say that?\u201d because she\u2019s 12, and she may not have the ability to really communicate effectively what she\u2019s thinking and feeling in her words. By the end of the conversation, what came out was that she feels as though heaven is so hard to imagine, it\u2019s hard to picture what it\u2019s like, so when you can\u2019t do that it\u2019s really hard to really grab a hold on and enter into that truth.<\/p>\n<p>That made me feel a lot better, because what I wanted to do was to jump in and start giving her answers and explanations for why she should still believe in heaven.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: So I think when we have young people, whether we\u2019re in ministry and they come and they ask us these questions or they say they\u2019re having doubts, or within our own family, it\u2019s really important to just take a deep breath and pause to ask clarifying questions, to listen really well to what is being said, and then maybe from there, once you have a bit of the lay of the land, then to maybe move forward, asking some more clarifying questions, to find maybe what the heart of the issue really is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So is it okay to ask questions? Should we ask questions? Is doubt something that should be expressed?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think the research shows that it\u2019s not doubt that hijacks a kid\u2019s faith. It\u2019s unexpressed doubt that hijacks a kid\u2019s faith. So when a kid doesn\u2019t feel permission or invited to ask questions, and then presses it down, so to speak, eventually it\u2019s going to fester and it\u2019s going to hijack a faith.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting is the Bible says in Jude, \u201cHave mercy on those who doubt.\u201d Why mercy? Because doubt can be painful. When I started having questions, I started thinking through, \u201cIf I don\u2019t believe this, does this affect my relationship with my parents? With my friends? My future?\u201d It was painful, and we miss that with many people who ask questions.<\/p>\n<p>So if there\u2019s any faith that can take questions, it\u2019s Christianity, because it\u2019s true and there are reasons for it. I\u2019m telling you, so many people that not only deconstruct but end up in deconversion, one of the common threads I will hear is the thread you just said: \u201cI was never allowed to ask questions. I was told that doubt was bad.\u201d And in the age of smart phones, where there\u2019s endless information, kids are going to have questions, and that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So we can answer them, but one of the things I\u2019ve found as parents is if we can just live with doubts, even telling our kids, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to answer that, but I know that God does, and I can live in this tension,\u201d gives them permission to do so, and realize that there\u2019s some messiness to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s sort of sad that the disciple Thomas is known as \u201cDoubting Thomas,\u201d and yet you guys tell me\u2014Isn\u2019t it beautiful how Jesus responds to his question of certainty? \u201cI won\u2019t believe unless I can put my fingers in His hand.\u201d Jesus doesn\u2019t say, \u201cCome on, Dude. I can\u2019t believe you doubt.\u201d He says, \u201cHere.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Keep this in mind, though. Thomas was not a doubter. We need to stop calling him a doubter.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know. I hate that.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Thomas rejected. He flat out said, \u201cI will not believe unless I can see and touch.\u201d That\u2019s not doubt. That\u2019s a full-on \u201cI do not believe.\u201d Doubt is consistent with faith. You can believe something but have some doubts. You just don\u2019t know, so it\u2019s not the opposite of faith. Thomas was not a doubter, so when we call him a doubter we\u2019re basically saying, \u201cEither you\u2019re like Thomas who completely rejects this; there\u2019s no room for somebody to say, \u2018I think I believe this but I have questions.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So even the moniker, \u201cDoubting Thomas,\u201d shows how confused we are about what it means to doubt. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And John, you went through your own period of doubting and kind of looking at your faith and analyzing, \u201cIs this what I really believe?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Oh, I did. And it started at a Bible college, believe it or not.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>John: It was at a Bible college where I was gung-ho for Jesus but had very little Bible knowledge. I was in my teens; I think I was 15, and I was working with a Bible college student. We were both working on a game, and we were putting it away afterwards. The conversation somehow turned to the sovereignty of God. He raised the paradox that I had never thought of before: If God is completely sovereign, it doesn\u2019t seem like there\u2019s free will. And if people have free will, then maybe God is not completely sovereign.<\/p>\n<p>Then he explained to me how if that\u2019s the case, then God is maybe predetermining or just electing certain people to go to heaven, and other people are going to hell. It was in that moment that I felt all the joy just evaporate out of my Christian life, because up until then God was just good, and He was loving and kind. Really I just had a na\u00efve faith. That really sent me down the rabbit hole of asking all kinds of questions.<\/p>\n<p>For a long period of time I really, really wrestled with Who is God? What is He like? Is He really good? How am I supposed to understand what He has to say? What can I put my trust in? So there is a sense that Sean and I write this book out of our own experience.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s pretty cool. As I read that, I thought, \u201cYou illustrate everything you say in the book about that deconstruction journey that led you to a better understanding of your faith, and you say over and over in the book, \u201cSo often followers of Christ don\u2019t really even know what we believe anyway.\u201d So then when that starts to crumble, when we start to see \u2018Here\u2019s what we believe,\u2019 they fall apart.<\/p>\n<p>Talk about that, because I think as parents that\u2019s our children. We\u2019ve raised them in the church. They don\u2019t even really know what they believe. I\u2019m not even sure we do, often, and then we see deconstruction. They\u2019re deconstructing from something they never really understood anyway, and then they walk away. Am I right? Is that what you\u2019re trying to say?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, I think so. Sean and I both teach at Biola, and students come to Biola because they\u2019re Christians. They want to study in a liberal arts Christian environment. And then often when they get there, Biola has a requirement that you have to take so many Bible credits, and maybe for the first time they get exposed to the biblical story in a kind of chronological way.<\/p>\n<p>They realize, \u201cOh, I never read any of those passages out of Leviticus before, and what\u2019s with all the terror that\u2019s going on in the Old Testament? And then they start to say, \u201cI didn\u2019t realize that Jesus on the cross was being punished by God. Why is God punishing His own Son? Doesn\u2019t that seem like it\u2019s sort of an abusive kind of relationship?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So a lot of things get exposed when you start doing kind of a systematic study of the Bible, and this is not a criticism of families, Sunday schools, churches, but we don\u2019t really do a great job of going through the Bible, and we do a great job of telling great stories like Abraham and Moses and Samson, but maybe not systematically going through and giving the big picture of the entire text itself.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Parents now are thinking, \u201cOh, no! How do I do that? How do I explain that? I don\u2019t have the means to be able to explain that to my kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think what happens in this experiential time is people end up rejecting a caricature of the faith, and not the real faith. So when you have that moment, it\u2019s like \u201cAm I going to dig in and figure out what Christianity really is and if it\u2019s defensible, or am I going to reject this child-like faith?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Not in every case, but in so many cases of people who have left the faith, I\u2019ll ask a simple question. \u201cTell me about the God that you once believed in,\u201d or \u201cTell me\u2014\" something to the effect of not why did you leave the faith, but \u201cTell me that moment you came into the faith.\u201d You know what I never hear of that second question? It\u2019s almost never about \u201cI knew that I was a sinner, and I cried out to God for His grace.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s oftentimes a false gospel in there that somebody\u2019s believing of hard work or something else, whatever it is. Or they\u2019ll say, \u201cI just don\u2019t believe in this vindictive, hateful God,\u201d which there is judgment and wrath in the Bible, but that\u2019s only a piece of it. So this is why just good theology is so important. It\u2019s important we keep the main thing the main thing.<\/p>\n<p>So I think both of us wrote this book in a way looking back on our experiences, saying, \u201cWhat book do we wish we had?\u201d When you\u2019re being challenged by another Christian, for me that moment hit when I was surfing on the internet in the mid-90s, and I\u2019d come across contradictions in the Bible, and these pagan mythical deities. I thought, \u201cI have never heard this, and my dad\u2019s an apologist.\u201d It just rocked me. \u201cOh, my goodness. What if I\u2019m actually wrong? What if the Bible\u2019s not true? What if Jesus is not God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kids have those moments, whether considering chucking their faith or from another Christian, trying to figure out, \u201cHow do I balance this?\u201d That\u2019s where it\u2019s really important we ask, \u201cOkay, what is the heart of the Gospel? What is God really like?\u201d And if they walk away, at least make sure they walk away from truly understanding what the heart of the Gospel is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I remember one time I was speaking at our men\u2019s retreat for our church. This guy walks up to me, and I\u2019ll never forget. I had never met him; he was at a different campus; I never knew the guy. He said, \u201cYou know, I\u2019ll never believe like you because I\u2019m a doubter.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m here. Somebody dragged me here, and it\u2019s a really cool weekend, but I just don\u2019t believe.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThere are too many questions, and I read this author, and I read this author,\u201d some atheist stuff, \u201cand I believe they\u2019re right. I think everything you guys believe is wrong.\u201d I said, \u201cGuess what?\u201d He said, \u201cWhat?\u201d I said, \u201cI have the same doubts.\u201d He said, \u201cWhat?\u201d \u201cBecause I read that guy. In fact, I could probably tell you five things that I agree with him in, and twenty that I don\u2019t. Would you be open to talk about it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cNo, Dude. You never doubted. You\u2019re the guy up there on that thing.\u201d I said, \u201cIt\u2019s an awesome journey, but doubt is part of it. Would you be willing to meet?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019ve never heard a Christian leader say they doubted. I\u2019ll meet with you.\u201d The guy came to Christ, but he needed to walk a journey, and I think he needed somebody to say, \u201cI struggle, too, and that\u2019s actually normal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s part of deconstructing what isn\u2019t real and what isn\u2019t true, and finding out, constructing, like you guys said earlier, what does matter. Is that a pretty common journey?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so. My son wanted to get baptized. I may have mentioned this last time, but he wanted to get baptized, and we said, \u201cOh, that\u2019s great. We would love to see that.\u201d And then we said, \u201cSo let\u2019s sit down and have a little conversation beforehand.\u201d He\u2019s made a profession in the past, and he said, \u201cYes, it\u2019s a good idea. I have a couple questions.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, okay. What\u2019s the first one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cWell, why do we really think God exists?\u201d [Laughter] I thought, \u201cWow. Okay. Maybe we need to step back. Maybe baptism is not the first step that we should be taking here, right?\u201d What he really meant by that was, \u201cHey, look, I really believe this, but is there some intellectual support that I can have other than it just seems really true to me?\u201d So we went through this discussion on the resurrection, and at the end of it I said to him\u2014his name is Cody.<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cCody, look. Can I prove to you 100 percent that Jesus rose from the dead? Nope. I can\u2019t and neither can anybody else. Do I think that there is good reason to think that He rose from the dead? I do. Do I think that there are counter arguments? I think that there are, but I find the reasons more persuasive than the counter arguments, and so I choose, based on that, to entrust myself to Jesus every day and try and walk out my life as submitting to His Lordship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cThat\u2019s what You\u2019re called to. You\u2019re not called to, \u2018I\u2019ll only be a Christian when all of my doubts are gone and when I have everything nailed down,\u2019 because if that\u2019s the case, you\u2019ll only be a Christian for about 20 minutes, if you\u2019re that kind of a thinker.\u201d [Laughter] Right? So I agree with you.<\/p>\n<p>I think that it\u2019s important to share with folks\u2014I met one person in my life who said he never had any doubts whatsoever. That tells me far more about his psychological makeup than it actually does even the depth of his faith\u2014not to question his faith, but it tells me more about him as a person than it necessarily does of having a robust, biblical faith.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Let\u2019s understand that we\u2019re called as believers to have faith. Knowing everything with 100 percent certainty doesn\u2019t require faith, and God says that \u201cThe righteous shall live by faith.\u201d So let\u2019s lean in, even when we don\u2019t have everything nailed down. I love this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean McDowell and John Marriott on FamilyLife Today. Sean and John have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith. It really talks about how to analyze and reevaluate your Christian beliefs and your Christian experiences in the church, while keeping the core of your faith intact. So if you\u2019d like a copy of Sean and John\u2019s book, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>August is such a unique time to give here at FamilyLife, because when you do, we\u2019re going to send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course, along with a fun card game called Ferret Flush\u2122 that you can play with your family to get to know them better.<\/p>\n<p>So if you want to donate you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call us with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again that number is 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now Dave and Ann Wilson are back again tomorrow with Sean and John, to talk about the importance of parental influence, and really responding with love and understanding when the young people in your life are struggling with what they believe. That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1746565368:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_42615c5a0983fbd1390ffd1941fa78531979e743":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_42615c5a0983fbd1390ffd1941fa78531979e743":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:110:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It: Drs. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776578615;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Can deconstructing faith be healthy? Authors Sean McDowell and John Marriott explore the realities of deconstruction\u2014and the need for each of us to wrestle with doubts, questions, and incongruities toward robust faith. Can I prove to you 100 percent tha...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Sean McDowell at <a href=\"http:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a> and listen to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">other programs <\/a>from him on FamilyLife Today.<br \/>\nFind more on John Marriott at <a href=\"http:\/\/johnmarriott.org\/\">johnmarriott.org<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">Set Adrift<\/a>\"\u00a0in our shop<br \/>\nListen to other podcasts by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">John Marriott<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-29.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Deconstructing Your Faith Without Sinking It<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean McDowell and John Marriott<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your<\/p>\n<p>Faith (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 29, 2023<\/p>\n<p>John: Can I prove to you 100 percent that Jesus rose from the dead? Nope. I can\u2019t and neither can anybody else. Do I think that there is good reason to think that He rose from the dead? I do. Do I think that there are counterarguments? I think that there are, but I find the reasons more persuasive than the counter arguments, and so I choose, based on that, to entrust myself to Jesus every day and try and walk out my life as submitting to His Lordship.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what You\u2019re called to. You\u2019re not called to \u201cI\u2019ll only be a Christian when all of my doubts are gone and when I have everything nailed down,\u201d because if that\u2019s the case, you\u2019ll only be a Christian for about 20 minutes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, here\u2019s a stat that will shock you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014that I just read. \u201c2018 Pine Tops Foundation claim that over one million young people will leave the faith per year for the next 30 years.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s staggering and depressing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That means that 35 million walking away from the faith by 2050. Pretty scary, huh?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s terrible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, we\u2019re going to talk about it today. We have to understand this. We have to know what this is about. We have two experts. I would call them the experts in the studio. [Laughter] We actually have had both of them in individually but never together, so this could get really interesting. Sean McDowell and John Marriott, both from California. Both teach at Biola [University]. You guys don\u2019t cross paths very often there, do you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: We do now. Writing this book together made it much more intentional.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It should have happened long ago, that\u2019s for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith. I love the title. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>John: It\u2019s good to be back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How did you two end up saying, \u201cLet\u2019s write a book together about this topic?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Well, I was doing an interview for the Think Biblically podcast that Sean and Scott Ray host, and then afterwards Sean and I got talking about the need for trying to help young Christian college, high school age students think through how to remain in the faith when they don\u2019t really feel like the faith that\u2019s been handed to them really maybe represents what they think is an authentic way of living like Jesus wants them to. And it was from that conversation that the book has eventually come to pass.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: One of the reasons I wanted to do this is because John has written\u2014is this the fifth book on deconstruction?<\/p>\n<p>John: It is, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: He has done the most or some of the most academic, careful research on why young people question their faith, leave the faith, and I have benefited from, read a lot of your stuff, interviewed you. You came with the idea, and I said, \u201cWell, there are other books written on this,\u201d and this unique angle that I think we\u2019re taking, I thought, \u201cWow, this has been the heart of my ministry. So you can bring the research, I have some stories; this sounds like a perfectly needed book for parents and for young people right now who are really questioning their faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. When I saw that you two came together to write this book, I thought, \u201cNo better two guys to do this.\u201d And when I say \u2018experts,\u2019 you guys really have studied this and looked at this. The stat I obviously read was from your book, so you know the research, but talk about what is happening. Deconstruction, deconversion is a pretty well-known term now. Nobody even used that term five years ago. So what is going on?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well maybe we should start there, Dave. John, will you reintroduce the term and explain what that is?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, sure. To deconvert is when someone says, \u201cI once believed a particular faith.\u201d It could be Islam; it could be Christianity. \u201cBut I don\u2019t believe it anymore. Not only do I not believe the truth claims, but I have now removed myself out from the community, and I don\u2019t carry that label anymore. I wouldn\u2019t call myself a Christian. I\u2019ve really undone my entire conversion.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Deconstruction is sometimes associated with deconversion, and often people who deconvert\u2014it\u2019s the end of their deconstruction. But deconstruction doesn\u2019t necessarily even have to end in a deconversion. It can be a rethinking, sort of a \u201cI\u2019ve been handed this faith. It\u2019s the faith of my parents, it\u2019s the faith of my church or the denomination I\u2019m a part of. And you know, my entire life I\u2019ve accepted it, I\u2019ve lived it out, I\u2019ve kind of unquestionably gone along with it and accepted all the tenets, but now I may be a little bit more self-reflective.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI\u2019ve intellectually come of age. Some things are not lining up with me and the way I see the life that Jesus calls us to, and so I\u2019m going to rethink some of this. I\u2019m going to take it apart, maybe lay the parts on the table, and evaluate whether or not I think some of the things I\u2019ve inherited really reflect the way of Jesus.\u201d So that would be a deconstruction.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: There\u2019s a lot of debate about what the term \u2018deconstruction\u2019 even means.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: If you google it or go on YouTube or talk to people, some will say deconstruction means deconversion. But when John and I started talking, one of the things I appreciate is how he carefully said, \u201cLook, deconstruct is two words. \u2018De\u2019 like in \u2018destroy\u2019 is to break down. But \u2018construct\u2019 is to build back up. So deconstruction doesn\u2019t just have to be a negative process.<\/p>\n<p>Now there are some other Christian writers who will disagree with us and say, \u201cYou should never use \u2018deconstruction\u2019 in a positive term; use a different term for it.\u201d We differ with them. Partly we\u2019re saying, \u201cPeople are talking about deconstruction. This is how some people are using it, so let\u2019s define our terms and help take away the stigma. If somebody feels like their faith is slipping away, that they\u2019re going through a period of questioning, it doesn\u2019t have to result in abandoning your faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So we set out to say, \u201cHere\u2019s just some parameters and some guidelines to deconstruct well with the goal of ending with a healthy faith that you really own, that lines up with what Jesus taught.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. As I read your book, it was one of the first\u2014maybe the only\u2014you guys would know\u2014book written that made me think deconstruction isn\u2019t a bad thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Necessarily.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It can end up in deconversion. It often can end up in a better, stronger faith, and I haven\u2019t seen many people saying that. It\u2019s like \u201cDon\u2019t freak out if your child or your spouse is deconstructing.\u201d It could end up to be a really positive thing, right?<\/p>\n<p>John: It can. It can be very fearful for those of us who are watching from the outside, because we don\u2019t know where it\u2019s going to end up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, it makes me freak out as a mom.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, and I think Sean can speak to that, right? When you went through your period of struggling\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, I did.<\/p>\n<p>John: --your dad was okay, but your mom\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, it was a very different response. That\u2019s exactly right. So if you have a spouse or friend deconstructing, the first thing I would say is, \u201cTell me what you mean by deconstruction.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A lot of where it ends up is the process we go through with it, and the attitude and approach. So some people have been so hurt by the church that they are intentionally shedding their faith and want to get rid of it. There\u2019s nothing I can do to stop that person unless they have a heart change.<\/p>\n<p>There are a lot of people just saying, \u201cI have questions about this theological idea. I don\u2019t know how to make sense of this. I am questioning my faith. How do I proceed wisely?\u201d So it doesn\u2019t have to be a negative thing, but we have to carefully define our terms. You\u2019re right, with my dad the glass is 99.9 percent full. He just is. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So when I told him I was questioning my faith, I didn\u2019t use the term \u2018deconstruction\u2019 but looking back I might have used it to describe that process.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old were you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think I was probably 19 years old.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: A sophomore in college. My mom\u2019s response is very different, partly because she\u2019s a mom. She just freaked out and thought she failed in some fashion, which I understand. So those of us who are questioning things\u2014John and I talk about this a lot\u2014-we have to keep in mind how our questioning affects those around us. It really has to go both ways if we\u2019re going to do this well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, so what did your mom say versus your dad? What did that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know what your dad said. You put that in the book, but I don\u2019t know what your mom said.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Well, you know, in defense of my mom, I told my mom first, and then looking back, she I\u2019m sure had had a conversation with my dad, [Laughter] so he was able to emotionally prep.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So there is a difference there, but I have never been an angry rebel, so to speak. I just told my mom, \u201cI\u2019m not sure if I believe this stuff. I don\u2019t know,\u201d and she was just completely taken aback, didn\u2019t know how to respond, somewhat speechless. She didn\u2019t say anything wrong; she just was completely taken aback by this and \u201ccould not imagine that this would happen on her watch\u201d kind of thing. So she didn\u2019t have to come back and apologize for anything, but she just was that concerned, worried mom.<\/p>\n<p>My dad\u2019s like, \u201cHey, seek after truth, love you no matter what, let\u2019s go get some coffee.\u201d And I actually think kids need both. They need someone who\u2019s concerned, to see that motional side, and someone who\u2019s like, \u201cAlright, let\u2019s do this. What\u2019s truth? Let\u2019s figure it out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you started saying to ask those questions: \u201cWhat do you mean by that?\u201d Is that what you\u2019re saying to start with when your kids come and say, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t even know if I believe this stuff?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Sure. My daughter is 12 years old, and the other night she said to me, \u201cYou know, Dad, I don\u2019t think I believe in heaven.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oooh.<\/p>\n<p>John: My heart sunk. I\u2019m putting her to bed; we\u2019ve prayed together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you say, \u201cI\u2019ve written a lot of books about this.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cYou need to read one of them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: No, I didn\u2019t, but I did what Sean said. I kind of tried to gather myself, because when she said that it was really troubling because in a moment\u2019s time I projected where things were going to be going in her life in the next ten years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>John: And that was really disturbing to me, but I said, \u201cSo, can you tell me what you mean when you say that?\u201d because she\u2019s 12, and she may not have the ability to really communicate effectively what she\u2019s thinking and feeling in her words. By the end of the conversation, what came out was that she feels as though heaven is so hard to imagine, it\u2019s hard to picture what it\u2019s like, so when you can\u2019t do that it\u2019s really hard to really grab a hold on and enter into that truth.<\/p>\n<p>That made me feel a lot better, because what I wanted to do was to jump in and start giving her answers and explanations for why she should still believe in heaven.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: So I think when we have young people, whether we\u2019re in ministry and they come and they ask us these questions or they say they\u2019re having doubts, or within our own family, it\u2019s really important to just take a deep breath and pause to ask clarifying questions, to listen really well to what is being said, and then maybe from there, once you have a bit of the lay of the land, then to maybe move forward, asking some more clarifying questions, to find maybe what the heart of the issue really is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So is it okay to ask questions? Should we ask questions? Is doubt something that should be expressed?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think the research shows that it\u2019s not doubt that hijacks a kid\u2019s faith. It\u2019s unexpressed doubt that hijacks a kid\u2019s faith. So when a kid doesn\u2019t feel permission or invited to ask questions, and then presses it down, so to speak, eventually it\u2019s going to fester and it\u2019s going to hijack a faith.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting is the Bible says in Jude, \u201cHave mercy on those who doubt.\u201d Why mercy? Because doubt can be painful. When I started having questions, I started thinking through, \u201cIf I don\u2019t believe this, does this affect my relationship with my parents? With my friends? My future?\u201d It was painful, and we miss that with many people who ask questions.<\/p>\n<p>So if there\u2019s any faith that can take questions, it\u2019s Christianity, because it\u2019s true and there are reasons for it. I\u2019m telling you, so many people that not only deconstruct but end up in deconversion, one of the common threads I will hear is the thread you just said: \u201cI was never allowed to ask questions. I was told that doubt was bad.\u201d And in the age of smart phones, where there\u2019s endless information, kids are going to have questions, and that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So we can answer them, but one of the things I\u2019ve found as parents is if we can just live with doubts, even telling our kids, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to answer that, but I know that God does, and I can live in this tension,\u201d gives them permission to do so, and realize that there\u2019s some messiness to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s sort of sad that the disciple Thomas is known as \u201cDoubting Thomas,\u201d and yet you guys tell me\u2014Isn\u2019t it beautiful how Jesus responds to his question of certainty? \u201cI won\u2019t believe unless I can put my fingers in His hand.\u201d Jesus doesn\u2019t say, \u201cCome on, Dude. I can\u2019t believe you doubt.\u201d He says, \u201cHere.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Keep this in mind, though. Thomas was not a doubter. We need to stop calling him a doubter.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know. I hate that.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Thomas rejected. He flat out said, \u201cI will not believe unless I can see and touch.\u201d That\u2019s not doubt. That\u2019s a full-on \u201cI do not believe.\u201d Doubt is consistent with faith. You can believe something but have some doubts. You just don\u2019t know, so it\u2019s not the opposite of faith. Thomas was not a doubter, so when we call him a doubter we\u2019re basically saying, \u201cEither you\u2019re like Thomas who completely rejects this; there\u2019s no room for somebody to say, \u2018I think I believe this but I have questions.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So even the moniker, \u201cDoubting Thomas,\u201d shows how confused we are about what it means to doubt. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And John, you went through your own period of doubting and kind of looking at your faith and analyzing, \u201cIs this what I really believe?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Oh, I did. And it started at a Bible college, believe it or not.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>John: It was at a Bible college where I was gung-ho for Jesus but had very little Bible knowledge. I was in my teens; I think I was 15, and I was working with a Bible college student. We were both working on a game, and we were putting it away afterwards. The conversation somehow turned to the sovereignty of God. He raised the paradox that I had never thought of before: If God is completely sovereign, it doesn\u2019t seem like there\u2019s free will. And if people have free will, then maybe God is not completely sovereign.<\/p>\n<p>Then he explained to me how if that\u2019s the case, then God is maybe predetermining or just electing certain people to go to heaven, and other people are going to hell. It was in that moment that I felt all the joy just evaporate out of my Christian life, because up until then God was just good, and He was loving and kind. Really I just had a na\u00efve faith. That really sent me down the rabbit hole of asking all kinds of questions.<\/p>\n<p>For a long period of time I really, really wrestled with Who is God? What is He like? Is He really good? How am I supposed to understand what He has to say? What can I put my trust in? So there is a sense that Sean and I write this book out of our own experience.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s pretty cool. As I read that, I thought, \u201cYou illustrate everything you say in the book about that deconstruction journey that led you to a better understanding of your faith, and you say over and over in the book, \u201cSo often followers of Christ don\u2019t really even know what we believe anyway.\u201d So then when that starts to crumble, when we start to see \u2018Here\u2019s what we believe,\u2019 they fall apart.<\/p>\n<p>Talk about that, because I think as parents that\u2019s our children. We\u2019ve raised them in the church. They don\u2019t even really know what they believe. I\u2019m not even sure we do, often, and then we see deconstruction. They\u2019re deconstructing from something they never really understood anyway, and then they walk away. Am I right? Is that what you\u2019re trying to say?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, I think so. Sean and I both teach at Biola, and students come to Biola because they\u2019re Christians. They want to study in a liberal arts Christian environment. And then often when they get there, Biola has a requirement that you have to take so many Bible credits, and maybe for the first time they get exposed to the biblical story in a kind of chronological way.<\/p>\n<p>They realize, \u201cOh, I never read any of those passages out of Leviticus before, and what\u2019s with all the terror that\u2019s going on in the Old Testament? And then they start to say, \u201cI didn\u2019t realize that Jesus on the cross was being punished by God. Why is God punishing His own Son? Doesn\u2019t that seem like it\u2019s sort of an abusive kind of relationship?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So a lot of things get exposed when you start doing kind of a systematic study of the Bible, and this is not a criticism of families, Sunday schools, churches, but we don\u2019t really do a great job of going through the Bible, and we do a great job of telling great stories like Abraham and Moses and Samson, but maybe not systematically going through and giving the big picture of the entire text itself.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Parents now are thinking, \u201cOh, no! How do I do that? How do I explain that? I don\u2019t have the means to be able to explain that to my kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think what happens in this experiential time is people end up rejecting a caricature of the faith, and not the real faith. So when you have that moment, it\u2019s like \u201cAm I going to dig in and figure out what Christianity really is and if it\u2019s defensible, or am I going to reject this child-like faith?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Not in every case, but in so many cases of people who have left the faith, I\u2019ll ask a simple question. \u201cTell me about the God that you once believed in,\u201d or \u201cTell me\u2014\" something to the effect of not why did you leave the faith, but \u201cTell me that moment you came into the faith.\u201d You know what I never hear of that second question? It\u2019s almost never about \u201cI knew that I was a sinner, and I cried out to God for His grace.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s oftentimes a false gospel in there that somebody\u2019s believing of hard work or something else, whatever it is. Or they\u2019ll say, \u201cI just don\u2019t believe in this vindictive, hateful God,\u201d which there is judgment and wrath in the Bible, but that\u2019s only a piece of it. So this is why just good theology is so important. It\u2019s important we keep the main thing the main thing.<\/p>\n<p>So I think both of us wrote this book in a way looking back on our experiences, saying, \u201cWhat book do we wish we had?\u201d When you\u2019re being challenged by another Christian, for me that moment hit when I was surfing on the internet in the mid-90s, and I\u2019d come across contradictions in the Bible, and these pagan mythical deities. I thought, \u201cI have never heard this, and my dad\u2019s an apologist.\u201d It just rocked me. \u201cOh, my goodness. What if I\u2019m actually wrong? What if the Bible\u2019s not true? What if Jesus is not God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kids have those moments, whether considering chucking their faith or from another Christian, trying to figure out, \u201cHow do I balance this?\u201d That\u2019s where it\u2019s really important we ask, \u201cOkay, what is the heart of the Gospel? What is God really like?\u201d And if they walk away, at least make sure they walk away from truly understanding what the heart of the Gospel is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I remember one time I was speaking at our men\u2019s retreat for our church. This guy walks up to me, and I\u2019ll never forget. I had never met him; he was at a different campus; I never knew the guy. He said, \u201cYou know, I\u2019ll never believe like you because I\u2019m a doubter.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m here. Somebody dragged me here, and it\u2019s a really cool weekend, but I just don\u2019t believe.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThere are too many questions, and I read this author, and I read this author,\u201d some atheist stuff, \u201cand I believe they\u2019re right. I think everything you guys believe is wrong.\u201d I said, \u201cGuess what?\u201d He said, \u201cWhat?\u201d I said, \u201cI have the same doubts.\u201d He said, \u201cWhat?\u201d \u201cBecause I read that guy. In fact, I could probably tell you five things that I agree with him in, and twenty that I don\u2019t. Would you be open to talk about it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cNo, Dude. You never doubted. You\u2019re the guy up there on that thing.\u201d I said, \u201cIt\u2019s an awesome journey, but doubt is part of it. Would you be willing to meet?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019ve never heard a Christian leader say they doubted. I\u2019ll meet with you.\u201d The guy came to Christ, but he needed to walk a journey, and I think he needed somebody to say, \u201cI struggle, too, and that\u2019s actually normal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s part of deconstructing what isn\u2019t real and what isn\u2019t true, and finding out, constructing, like you guys said earlier, what does matter. Is that a pretty common journey?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so. My son wanted to get baptized. I may have mentioned this last time, but he wanted to get baptized, and we said, \u201cOh, that\u2019s great. We would love to see that.\u201d And then we said, \u201cSo let\u2019s sit down and have a little conversation beforehand.\u201d He\u2019s made a profession in the past, and he said, \u201cYes, it\u2019s a good idea. I have a couple questions.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, okay. What\u2019s the first one?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cWell, why do we really think God exists?\u201d [Laughter] I thought, \u201cWow. Okay. Maybe we need to step back. Maybe baptism is not the first step that we should be taking here, right?\u201d What he really meant by that was, \u201cHey, look, I really believe this, but is there some intellectual support that I can have other than it just seems really true to me?\u201d So we went through this discussion on the resurrection, and at the end of it I said to him\u2014his name is Cody.<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cCody, look. Can I prove to you 100 percent that Jesus rose from the dead? Nope. I can\u2019t and neither can anybody else. Do I think that there is good reason to think that He rose from the dead? I do. Do I think that there are counter arguments? I think that there are, but I find the reasons more persuasive than the counter arguments, and so I choose, based on that, to entrust myself to Jesus every day and try and walk out my life as submitting to His Lordship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cThat\u2019s what You\u2019re called to. You\u2019re not called to, \u2018I\u2019ll only be a Christian when all of my doubts are gone and when I have everything nailed down,\u2019 because if that\u2019s the case, you\u2019ll only be a Christian for about 20 minutes, if you\u2019re that kind of a thinker.\u201d [Laughter] Right? So I agree with you.<\/p>\n<p>I think that it\u2019s important to share with folks\u2014I met one person in my life who said he never had any doubts whatsoever. That tells me far more about his psychological makeup than it actually does even the depth of his faith\u2014not to question his faith, but it tells me more about him as a person than it necessarily does of having a robust, biblical faith.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Let\u2019s understand that we\u2019re called as believers to have faith. Knowing everything with 100 percent certainty doesn\u2019t require faith, and God says that \u201cThe righteous shall live by faith.\u201d So let\u2019s lean in, even when we don\u2019t have everything nailed down. I love this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean McDowell and John Marriott on FamilyLife Today. Sean and John have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith. It really talks about how to analyze and reevaluate your Christian beliefs and your Christian experiences in the church, while keeping the core of your faith intact. So if you\u2019d like a copy of Sean and John\u2019s book, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>August is such a unique time to give here at FamilyLife, because when you do, we\u2019re going to send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course, along with a fun card game called Ferret Flush\u2122 that you can play with your family to get to know them better.<\/p>\n<p>So if you want to donate you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call us with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again that number is 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now Dave and Ann Wilson are back again tomorrow with Sean and John, to talk about the importance of parental influence, and really responding with love and understanding when the young people in your life are struggling with what they believe. That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. 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