{"id":280453,"date":"2023-08-30T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-08-30T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/"},"modified":"2025-05-06T17:02:34","modified_gmt":"2025-05-06T21:02:34","slug":"why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Kids Leave Christianity (And What to Do): Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cWill my kids leave the faith?\u201d It&#8217;s a legitimate concern. Drs. Sean McDowell and John Marriott reveal why kids leave Christianity, what happens in deconstruction, and how parents can both prevent and respond to faith crises.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>Christianity to a young person isn\u2019t this historic 2000-year-old faith that is diverse and believed all around the world. It\u2019s basically the few people who are living it out in front of me, whether that\u2019s Christians they know at their church, whether it\u2019s their parents, or maybe some other public figures that they see. So if they look at these Christians and don\u2019t think their life is captivating and compelling and backing up what they say, a certain urgency with the gospel, then why on earth would they believe it? &#8212; John Marriott<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cWill my kids leave the faith?\u201d It&#8217;s a legitimate concern. Drs. Sean McDowell and John Marriott reveal why kids leave Christianity, what happens in deconstruction, and how parents can both prevent and respond to faith crises. Christianity to a young p&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/d3301930-f405-450c-97d3-b154011de159\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:32:00","filesize":"29.33M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-08-30 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2262],"podcast_series":[8670],"cwp_profile":[9849,3605],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280453","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-why-kids-leave-christianity","podcast_series-set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-john-marriott","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280453\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280453\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"T2JsAqB58G\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/\">Why Kids Leave Christianity (And What to Do): Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-kids-leave-christianity-and-what-to-do-drs-sean-mcdowell-john-marriott\/embed\/#?secret=T2JsAqB58G\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Why Kids Leave Christianity (And What to Do): Drs. Sean McDowell &#038; John Marriott&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"T2JsAqB58G\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012679"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/d3301930-f405-450c-97d3-b154011de159\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:32:00"],"filesize":["29.33M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Connect with Sean McDowell at <a href=\"http:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a> and listen to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">other programs <\/a>from him on FamilyLife Today.<br \/>\nFind more on John Marriott at <a href=\"http:\/\/johnmarriott.org\/\">johnmarriott.org<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">Set Adrift<\/a>\"\u00a0in our shop<br \/>\nListen to other podcasts by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">John Marriott<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-30.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Why Kids Leave Christianity (And What to Do)<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean McDowell and John Marriott<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your<\/p>\n<p>Faith (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 30, 2023<\/p>\n<p>John: Christianity to a young person isn\u2019t this historic 2000-year-old faith that is diverse and believed all around the world. It\u2019s basically the few people who are living it out in front of me, whether that\u2019s Christians they know at their church, whether it\u2019s their parents, or maybe some other public figures that they see. So if they look at these Christians and don\u2019t think their life is captivating and compelling and backing up what they say, a certain urgency with the gospel, then why on earth would they believe it?<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>I guess it might the number one fear of every Christian parent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: --That their children leave the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. It\u2019s like we\u2019re married, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know. We are one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You finished my sentence. Yes, I think that\u2019s it. It\u2019s like it\u2019s visceral. It\u2019s so strong in your heart. \u201cI just hope my son or daughter when they\u2019re an adult, they\u2019re walking with Jesus.\u201d I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s anything we want more.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we\u2019re living in a time where if our kids are having questions they can just go on YouTube. They can google it; they can find out any answer, but that feels scary, too, because there\u2019s so much on their minds that they\u2019re being bombarded with that could be contrary to what they grew up with spiritually.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and it\u2019s scary because it seems they know more about our faith than we know about our faith, and so we need some help. So we have help in the studio. Sean McDowell and John Marriott are back with us from Talbot Seminary, Biola University. Both teach there. We\u2019ve already talked about this for one day, but let\u2019s talk about it for another. Welcome back.<\/p>\n<p>John: It\u2019s good to be here again.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys wrote a book together called Set Adrift about this whole idea of deconstruction. What does \u2018set adrift\u2019 mean? Why that title?<\/p>\n<p>John: Oh, because we use the metaphor of a paddle boarder who goes out from shore, and then the fog sets in and they\u2019re just not sure exactly where they are because there are no points of reference for them to see. They can\u2019t see the shore; they don\u2019t know where they are; and that\u2019s a terrifying feeling.<\/p>\n<p>That kind of encapsulates what it is to go through deconstruction, where you say, \u201cI think I\u2019m a Christian, I think I still want to believe, but I don\u2019t know what it is I believe anymore and I\u2019m not sure where to turn, and I don\u2019t know what my next move is.\u201d Our goal is not to tell people what to believe, but maybe how to think through this process well, in the hopes that they can land somewhere within the historic Christian orthodox faith that lines up with maybe who they are and what their values are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019re writing about something\u2014have you experienced this fear that we\u2019re talking about as a parent?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I don\u2019t know that my kids have questioned the faith on this level, that they would leave it. I\u2019ve had moments where I didn\u2019t know remotely what to do, how to deal with the situation my kids were going through, but I can tell you one thing I\u2019ve done is since I went to my parents (and my dad obviously is an apologist) and told them, \u201cHey, I\u2019m not sure I believe this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As a kid how I experienced that was very different than I am as a parent imagining my son or daughter saying that to me. So I have played it through a thousand times in my mind how I would hopefully respond if my kid said that to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, how would you respond?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I would respond the same way my dad did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I would say two things. I would say, \u201cThanks so much for telling your dad. I can imagine you\u2019ve been thinking about this so long.\u201d And second, \u201cI love you no matter what.\u201d And I guess the third thing I would say is, \u201cDo you mind unpacking this for me? Tell me your story, when you started having questions, what\u2019s going on, how can I help?\u201d and I would just listen and affirm my love, step number one.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: When you guys wrote this book, John, did you have in mind, \u201cI hope parents read this. I hope kids read this.\u201d Who were you hoping?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think both audiences. I think we specifically had in mind the high school, college student who is really trying to think through this, but also maybe for a parent to go through the book with one of their kids or a youth pastor to have, because we think it\u2019s as important for people who are leading young people to also be aware of some of the things that they\u2019re struggling with and that they\u2019re going through, and to try and help them think well about what it means to deconstruct and deconstruction, because it comes with all kinds of different meanings if you were to look it up online.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the quotes I found fascinating in your book is from Dr. Russell Moore. I\u2019d love to have you comment on this because it was very insightful to me. He said, \u201cWe now see young evangelicals walking away from evangelicalism, not because they do not believe what the church teaches, but because they believe the church itself does not believe what the church teaches.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a lot more to that quote, but that\u2019s enough to say, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s talk about that,\u201d because there was something that resonated when I read that. What\u2019s that getting at?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Here\u2019s what the research consistently shows. The primary influence on a young person is their parents, hands down. It\u2019s not Netflix, it\u2019s not the educational system, it\u2019s not their friends. It\u2019s not Google or YouTube. It\u2019s their parents, but it\u2019s not only the relationship with parents, it\u2019s the example.<\/p>\n<p>So Christianity to a young person isn\u2019t this historic, 2000-year-old faith that is diverse and believed all around the world. It\u2019s basically the few people who are living it out in front of me, whether that\u2019s Christians they know at their church, whether it\u2019s their parents, or maybe some other public figures that they see.<\/p>\n<p>So if they look at these Christians and don\u2019t think their life is captivating and compelling and backing up what they say, a certain urgency with the gospel, then why on earth would they believe it, especially when this generation is arguably asked to sacrifice more for living their faith than previous generations?<\/p>\n<p>So the last thing I\u2019ll say is what this really shows is when a young person is questioning their faith, the first thing we have to do is look within. Rather than trying to fix them, look within and say, \u201cOkay, have I played some role in contributing to this?\u201d If so, give myself grace, but \u201cHow do I change it and how do I respond?\u201d because that\u2019s what I can control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Any thoughts, John?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes. I\u2019m not sure if I can put this very succinctly, but I do think that there is a relationship between Russell Moore\u2019s quote about them not seeing the church live out what the church says it should be, and how Jesus pictures it, and perhaps the way that they portray and perhaps the way they see the church being so imbedded in some political issues. I think that there\u2019s a connection there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So they\u2019re not necessarily rejecting Jesus as much as some of the stance Christians could be taking. Is that a way to say that?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so. There are people who would identify as someone who would say, \u201cI\u2019m a done.\u201d Right? There are people who are \u201cnones\u201d who say, \u201cI have no religious affiliation, no religious beliefs,\u201d but then there are people who are \u201cdones\u201d who say, \u201cI have religious beliefs but I have no religious affiliation. So I might affirm the truth claims of the Bible, I might affirm some of the claims of Christianity. I like Jesus, but I don\u2019t really like the church. So I\u2019m done with organized religion; I might be spiritual but I am not religious.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Most of the conversations I\u2019ve had with a person deconstructing\u2014not talking about my own kids\u2014I shouldn\u2019t be surprised, but it often didn\u2019t come back to faith or intellectual beliefs. It came back to hurt; it came back to misunderstanding.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sort of Russell\u2019s quote a little bit, but somebody in the church or a group of people had done something, said something, and they\u2019ve seen it enough times, not just personally but in the church, they said, \u201cI\u2019m just done. I\u2019m out. I can\u2019t associate with those people,\u201d more than \u201cI can\u2019t associate with Christ.\u201d Is that common?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so, and along with that I think comes the influence of social media. I have good friends who, because of Covid, stayed at home. Everyone stayed at home. When church came back, they just realized, \u201cHey, most of the time I go to church I just listen to a boring sermon anyway, and I don\u2019t really love the singing, so why don\u2019t I just watch a sermon that I really enjoy online, from somebody who\u2019s a better preacher than my pastor.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And \u201cI can get all the same kinds of goods that I get when I go to church, and I don\u2019t have to put up with people, who kind of get under my skin and irritate me.\u201d So I think a combination of those kinds of things are what keeps people away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But yet you say in the book, \u201cIf you\u2019re going to walk this journey, don\u2019t do it alone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Don\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Don\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about what that means, because a lot of people do this alone, and it leads to a very dark place.<\/p>\n<p>John: Part of the reason they do is because it\u2019s hard to open up and admit to someone who is safe that you\u2019re wrestling through these questions. \u201cI have some more to say. I don\u2019t really know what I think about men\u2019s and women\u2019s role, or I don\u2019t really know what I think about LGBTQ issues.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you don\u2019t open up to the right person, then you can find yourself either shamed or you can find yourself maybe on the outs, people start talking about you because you have questions, and that\u2019s the worst thing in the world that can happen with somebody who\u2019s kind of on the fence and not knowing what they believe. So that\u2019s one reason why people don\u2019t open up and have these conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Probably a decade ago I had a student who was in my high school Worldview Apologetics class. He came out to me that he had totally become an atheist, out of the blue, like this kid was the opposite in my class. We went out to coffee twice, and one thing I said: \u201cTell me your story, how you got here.\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I went through this questioning period and just blocked out all voices and had to figure it out for myself.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cWell, you didn\u2019t block out all voices. You were listening to some voices. We\u2019re all listening to somebody.\u201d And then at the end I realized he had kind of dug in his heels, and all I said to him was, \u201cIf you ever revisit this question, one request: Will you let me just be a part of the conversation? That\u2019s it,\u201d and he promised. So I\u2019m hoping I get that text or that call someday. But when you do it alone, emotionally you can\u2019t handle it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: You can\u2019t intellectually ask the right questions. It\u2019s like you\u2019re setting yourself up for failure in so many circumstances.<\/p>\n<p>John: Even on top of that, too, I think that our culture is a very individualized culture, right? We need to be authentically who we are, and so I need to believe what I think is true, and I need to search that out for myself. This is a phenomenon that is really kind of a new thing in the western world. Nobody was deconstructing their faith 30 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>People had questions, people had some apologetics, but nobody was putting the whole of Christianity on the table and pulling it apart and asking which pieces lined up with their values like they do now. And that\u2019s because there\u2019s a shift in the way that we view the self, and the self is the one thing that we need to be loyal to, our inner feelings, who we are to be authentically me.<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s another reason why people kind of go about this alone, because we are primed to go that road, but historically it\u2019s an unhealthy practice because we\u2019re part of a community. We\u2019re not just individuals.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say, go into that a little deeper, because that is what we\u2019re hearing in our culture. \u201cThis is what I feel. This is what I believe.\u201d There are no absolutes in it, so \u201cwhat I believe, this is to be true.\u201d How do you respond to that, because you guys are doing that all the time?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Part of what\u2019s happened is a shift in what you might call the locus of truth. It used to be typically thought that \u201cTruth is something that I discover and I conform my life to, whether it\u2019s convenient or not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Now it\u2019s \u201cYou be you. Live your truth. Being authentic,\u201d like John said, \u201cTo the self is the highest form of the good.\u201d So in part, you can\u2019t just say one thing and fix this. I try to have conversations with young people about things like, \u201cWhat is freedom? What does it mean to be free?\u201d and point out that you cannot be free apart from truth. It\u2019s actually truth that sets us free.<\/p>\n<p>So for example, G.K. Chesterton said, \u201cYou can take a tiger and free it from the zoo, but don\u2019t free a tiger from its stripes. Having stripes is what it means to be a tiger. You understand the truth of something, then know how it should live.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I thought, \u201cWe have to have a conversation with young people about \u2018What is truth? Can we know truth? What\u2019s the relationship between truth and freedom? What is the good life?\u2019\u201d because they\u2019ve imbibed so many things without realizing it from watching TikTok videos, watching our world that says it\u2019s all about the self. So it takes a lot of deconstructing, so to speak, or rewiring these bad ideas.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And is there a way that we talk to our kids that they don\u2019t conform to that worldview? As your kids were growing up and they\u2019re little you\u2019re not saying, \u201cYou be you.\u201d What are your saying to your kids?<\/p>\n<p>John: My son is 14, so he\u2019s at the place where we can have these conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: I will tell him about this. I\u2019ll tell him about how there\u2019s been a shift in the way that Sean talked about where truth was outside and that we tried to conform ourselves to that rather than it being all about us. Then as we go through Walmart, and as we go through the record store, or as we go through the mall, I will start pointing out advertisements that say that \u201cIt\u2019s all about you. You be you. You\u2019re going to do what you want to do. It\u2019s your truth.\u201d It\u2019s at the point now where he will start pointing those things out to me.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>John: He\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, Dad, look at that ad over there. It\u2019s exactly what you talk about.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cYes.\u201d It\u2019s a very subtle message, but when it\u2019s reinforced over and over and over again, it\u2019s the highest value in our culture to be authentically who you are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: As parents we can\u2019t be lazy. We have to be intentional just to be aware, but it\u2019s hard because as parents we\u2019re tired, we\u2019re stressed, we have all kinds of demands on our lives. But our kids are at stake, and our relationships with them are at stake. I love that you guys are bringing this up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. I think what I heard you say is in a sense you\u2019re deconstructing true statements all around you all the time. And so when our kids start to deconstruct their own faith, that\u2019s not always a bad thing. They\u2019re doing the same thing, like \u201cWait, wait, wait, is this true? Let\u2019s deconstruct it and say \u2018yes\u2019.\u201d You talk in the book about primary beliefs and secondary. Often we walk away because of a secondary belief. Explain that a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: The main Christian message is God exists, He created the world, Jesus is the God-man who lived a sinless life, rose from the grave on the third day. These are essential beliefs. Then there are secondary and third-level beliefs that are very important for Christian living. They are not unimportant to have an answer for, but they\u2019re not the kind of questions that should make me jettison my faith.<\/p>\n<p>So partly what we\u2019re encouraging people to do is say, \u201cWhat are primary questions? What are secondary ones? What is the heart of the faith? Why do I believe?\u201d And again, it doesn\u2019t mean we shouldn\u2019t entertain and consider the importance of secondary beliefs, like \u201cIs the Bible inerrant?\u201d That\u2019s really important for its authority and how I live, but if I discovered a genuine error in the Bible, I wouldn\u2019t leave my faith the way I would if they found the body of Jesus in a tomb in Israel.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s just one kind of distinction that I can think empowers people when they come across a contradiction they can\u2019t answer, to say, \u201cOkay, I can take a deep breath. I realize what\u2019s at stake. Now let\u2019s go see if we can find a resolution to this question.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve talked to people who said, \u201cI can\u2019t buy that. I\u2019m out.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell you don\u2019t have to buy that to stay in.\u201d There are essentials, like you said, that are crucial, but there are many secondary that there\u2019s reasons I believe them, and there are reasons you should, I think, but it\u2019s not that critical.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, that\u2019s right. We have to be careful of setting up an all-or-nothing ultimatum, that you buy this entire package I\u2019m passing on to you, exactly as I\u2019m transmitting it to you, or you\u2019re not a Christian at all.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: Unfortunately what is usually getting passed on is not unadulterated pure Christianity. It\u2019s an interpretation, it\u2019s someone\u2019s interpretation of the Bible, and it can be very close to being what the Bible actually means, right? But nevertheless, it\u2019s an interpretation, and there are lots of different ways of being faithfully Christian, being biblical, being within the orthodox Christian faith, that don\u2019t look exactly like the church that I go to right now.<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s good for young people to know that, because there are some young people who love Jesus, who are committed, who believe right things about Him, but where their heart really is, is not in parsing out doctrine as much as it is getting out and serving and helping and trying to correct injustices. And if they feel as though that\u2019s not part of the faith, if they feel like Christianity ignores that, then it\u2019s going to be very hard if they\u2019re wired that way to stay where they\u2019re at.<\/p>\n<p>But if they know, \u201cHey, I can faithfully, lovingly follow Jesus, be committed and a disciple, and I can incorporate these passions that I have, but it might mean I\u2019m going to a different church over here,\u201d as long as it\u2019s within the broad scope of Christian orthodoxy and it is biblical in the broad sense, then they need to know that they can have the freedom to think through those issues.<\/p>\n<p>I think the Apostles Creed is a good set of fenceposts. Maybe some of the other really early creeds are good fenceposts that the early Christians all agreed on. Those would be the ones that we would want to say, \u201cHey, stay within here,\u201d and then, even within there, then you have different secondary issues that come often down to interpretation, and there should be some freedom on those.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was sitting here thinking, three of us out of the four at this table, sort of went on a skeptic\u2019s journey. My wife just never doubted. She\u2019s sort of perfect, and I think a lot of people do that. We had a guest on, Brant Hansen, who\u2019s written several books, and is a well-know radio host. He made a comment about his skeptic journey. I\u2019d love to play the clip and just let you two guys respond. Just whatever comes to your mind, respond to what Brant has to say right here.<\/p>\n<p>[Recorded Message]<\/p>\n<p>Brant Hansen: I am a highly skeptical person. I\u2019m so skeptical it chases me back around, because I feel like a lot of people are one-way skeptics when it comes to faith, and I think my experience of \u201cOkay, what are the alternatives?\u201d but I\u2019m skeptical about those, too, and ask questions. I don\u2019t think they work. I think Jesus is the only One Who makes any sense, for crying out loud, in the world\u2014<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter] \u2014because He calls out human nature and sin and then does something about it, instead of acting like, \u201cNo, we\u2019re all good,\u201d or \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do about it.\u201d Human nature is so obviously askew, but that chases me back around to Him calling out self-righteousness, calling out the way we won\u2019t rethink, calling out the way we want to point the finger at others, all that sort of stuff. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Any thoughts?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I\u2019m a highly skeptical person, too. I doubt everything, from shoes that I buy, to the car that I buy, to where I go on vacation. And for a while I used to beat myself up, because I have a friend with a gift of faith who just believes. He\u2019s like, \u201cGod is going to come through.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cHow do you know? Give me some proof.\u201d But then I realized he doesn\u2019t write 350-page dissertations or 600-page books on the evidence.<\/p>\n<p>There is space within the Christian community for people who naturally have faith, people who are highly skeptical, and I hear his story and I think of so many other young people who grew up in the church who are highly skeptical and felt like they didn\u2019t belong, and felt like somebody needed to say, \u201cYou know what? Your questions are okay, and they\u2019re invited, and God can help you through this.\u201d That\u2019s why we have so many people deconstructing in a way that leads to deconversion.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How did you like having John and Sean in the studio? I know this topic is right up your alley.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, this is my wheelhouse. I love what we\u2019re talking about. And I honestly, and I said this, I love the way they approached it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s fresh. It\u2019s so incredibly important for us in families and in the culture we\u2019re living in, to help especially our children, and even ourselves, know how to grapple with faith issues in a way that\u2019s healthy. Deconstruction sounds like a bad term, and actually if it\u2019s done well leads to a stronger faith. They modeled for us how to do this well, and as parents how to lead our families to walk through these discussions well, as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And how to not freak out. That\u2019s always helpful for me, who is. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it just helps us to know what this could look like, how can we do this, and how can we think about this in our culture as we\u2019re facing so many of these different things?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If there\u2019s something we should be talking about right now in this culture, this is it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Deconstruction is happening all around us. It often ends badly, but if we do it well as they\u2019ve modeled for us, it can really end in a beautiful place, a stronger faith for our families and our legacy. Let me just say to you who listen to FamilyLife, and some of you give financially to FamilyLife, thank you. You are allowing programs like this that will change the future of the next generation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we not only appreciate you, but we need you to continue to do this kind of work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and if you\u2019ve never jumped in, you can jump in right now. Jump in with us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Be our partners.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, that\u2019s really well said. Partnership is really community, and we appreciate you joining our FamilyLife community by donating to make what we do possible. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean McDowell and John Marriott on FamilyLife Today. Sean and John have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith.<\/p>\n<p>This is a book that really strips away the nonessential aspects of Christianity, and then helps you to rebuild on solid biblical principles that shape a strong faith in our great Savior. You can pick up a copy of their book at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>And speaking of partnering, August is a really special time to give, because when you do, we\u2019ll send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course, and an engaging card game called Ferret Flush\u2122. The game will really provide wonderful opportunity for you and you family to bond and gain deeper insights into one another.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow is the last day to participate to receive the Art of Parenting course and the card game, so you can make your donation now at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again that number is 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d Or feel free to donate and drop us something in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow Dave and Ann Wilson are joined by Drew Hunter to talk about the importance of community and companionship in human life, and how the lack of it in modern society is affecting our friendships. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife\u00ae. All rights reserved. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776557012;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"\u201cWill my kids leave the faith?\u201d It's a legitimate concern. Drs. Sean McDowell and John Marriott reveal why kids leave Christianity, what happens in deconstruction, and how parents can both prevent and respond to faith crises. Christianity to a young p...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Sean McDowell at <a href=\"http:\/\/seanmcdowell.org\/\">seanmcdowell.org<\/a> and listen to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/dr-sean-mcdowell\/\">other programs <\/a>from him on FamilyLife Today.<br \/>\nFind more on John Marriott at <a href=\"http:\/\/johnmarriott.org\/\">johnmarriott.org<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab their book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">Set Adrift<\/a>\"\u00a0in our shop<br \/>\nListen to other podcasts by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">John Marriott<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Why Kids Leave Christianity (And What to Do)<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean McDowell and John Marriott<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your<\/p>\n<p>Faith (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 30, 2023<\/p>\n<p>John: Christianity to a young person isn\u2019t this historic 2000-year-old faith that is diverse and believed all around the world. It\u2019s basically the few people who are living it out in front of me, whether that\u2019s Christians they know at their church, whether it\u2019s their parents, or maybe some other public figures that they see. So if they look at these Christians and don\u2019t think their life is captivating and compelling and backing up what they say, a certain urgency with the gospel, then why on earth would they believe it?<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>I guess it might the number one fear of every Christian parent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: --That their children leave the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. It\u2019s like we\u2019re married, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know. We are one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You finished my sentence. Yes, I think that\u2019s it. It\u2019s like it\u2019s visceral. It\u2019s so strong in your heart. \u201cI just hope my son or daughter when they\u2019re an adult, they\u2019re walking with Jesus.\u201d I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s anything we want more.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we\u2019re living in a time where if our kids are having questions they can just go on YouTube. They can google it; they can find out any answer, but that feels scary, too, because there\u2019s so much on their minds that they\u2019re being bombarded with that could be contrary to what they grew up with spiritually.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and it\u2019s scary because it seems they know more about our faith than we know about our faith, and so we need some help. So we have help in the studio. Sean McDowell and John Marriott are back with us from Talbot Seminary, Biola University. Both teach there. We\u2019ve already talked about this for one day, but let\u2019s talk about it for another. Welcome back.<\/p>\n<p>John: It\u2019s good to be here again.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys wrote a book together called Set Adrift about this whole idea of deconstruction. What does \u2018set adrift\u2019 mean? Why that title?<\/p>\n<p>John: Oh, because we use the metaphor of a paddle boarder who goes out from shore, and then the fog sets in and they\u2019re just not sure exactly where they are because there are no points of reference for them to see. They can\u2019t see the shore; they don\u2019t know where they are; and that\u2019s a terrifying feeling.<\/p>\n<p>That kind of encapsulates what it is to go through deconstruction, where you say, \u201cI think I\u2019m a Christian, I think I still want to believe, but I don\u2019t know what it is I believe anymore and I\u2019m not sure where to turn, and I don\u2019t know what my next move is.\u201d Our goal is not to tell people what to believe, but maybe how to think through this process well, in the hopes that they can land somewhere within the historic Christian orthodox faith that lines up with maybe who they are and what their values are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019re writing about something\u2014have you experienced this fear that we\u2019re talking about as a parent?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I don\u2019t know that my kids have questioned the faith on this level, that they would leave it. I\u2019ve had moments where I didn\u2019t know remotely what to do, how to deal with the situation my kids were going through, but I can tell you one thing I\u2019ve done is since I went to my parents (and my dad obviously is an apologist) and told them, \u201cHey, I\u2019m not sure I believe this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As a kid how I experienced that was very different than I am as a parent imagining my son or daughter saying that to me. So I have played it through a thousand times in my mind how I would hopefully respond if my kid said that to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, how would you respond?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I would respond the same way my dad did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I would say two things. I would say, \u201cThanks so much for telling your dad. I can imagine you\u2019ve been thinking about this so long.\u201d And second, \u201cI love you no matter what.\u201d And I guess the third thing I would say is, \u201cDo you mind unpacking this for me? Tell me your story, when you started having questions, what\u2019s going on, how can I help?\u201d and I would just listen and affirm my love, step number one.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: When you guys wrote this book, John, did you have in mind, \u201cI hope parents read this. I hope kids read this.\u201d Who were you hoping?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think both audiences. I think we specifically had in mind the high school, college student who is really trying to think through this, but also maybe for a parent to go through the book with one of their kids or a youth pastor to have, because we think it\u2019s as important for people who are leading young people to also be aware of some of the things that they\u2019re struggling with and that they\u2019re going through, and to try and help them think well about what it means to deconstruct and deconstruction, because it comes with all kinds of different meanings if you were to look it up online.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the quotes I found fascinating in your book is from Dr. Russell Moore. I\u2019d love to have you comment on this because it was very insightful to me. He said, \u201cWe now see young evangelicals walking away from evangelicalism, not because they do not believe what the church teaches, but because they believe the church itself does not believe what the church teaches.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a lot more to that quote, but that\u2019s enough to say, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s talk about that,\u201d because there was something that resonated when I read that. What\u2019s that getting at?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Here\u2019s what the research consistently shows. The primary influence on a young person is their parents, hands down. It\u2019s not Netflix, it\u2019s not the educational system, it\u2019s not their friends. It\u2019s not Google or YouTube. It\u2019s their parents, but it\u2019s not only the relationship with parents, it\u2019s the example.<\/p>\n<p>So Christianity to a young person isn\u2019t this historic, 2000-year-old faith that is diverse and believed all around the world. It\u2019s basically the few people who are living it out in front of me, whether that\u2019s Christians they know at their church, whether it\u2019s their parents, or maybe some other public figures that they see.<\/p>\n<p>So if they look at these Christians and don\u2019t think their life is captivating and compelling and backing up what they say, a certain urgency with the gospel, then why on earth would they believe it, especially when this generation is arguably asked to sacrifice more for living their faith than previous generations?<\/p>\n<p>So the last thing I\u2019ll say is what this really shows is when a young person is questioning their faith, the first thing we have to do is look within. Rather than trying to fix them, look within and say, \u201cOkay, have I played some role in contributing to this?\u201d If so, give myself grace, but \u201cHow do I change it and how do I respond?\u201d because that\u2019s what I can control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Any thoughts, John?<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes. I\u2019m not sure if I can put this very succinctly, but I do think that there is a relationship between Russell Moore\u2019s quote about them not seeing the church live out what the church says it should be, and how Jesus pictures it, and perhaps the way that they portray and perhaps the way they see the church being so imbedded in some political issues. I think that there\u2019s a connection there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So they\u2019re not necessarily rejecting Jesus as much as some of the stance Christians could be taking. Is that a way to say that?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so. There are people who would identify as someone who would say, \u201cI\u2019m a done.\u201d Right? There are people who are \u201cnones\u201d who say, \u201cI have no religious affiliation, no religious beliefs,\u201d but then there are people who are \u201cdones\u201d who say, \u201cI have religious beliefs but I have no religious affiliation. So I might affirm the truth claims of the Bible, I might affirm some of the claims of Christianity. I like Jesus, but I don\u2019t really like the church. So I\u2019m done with organized religion; I might be spiritual but I am not religious.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Most of the conversations I\u2019ve had with a person deconstructing\u2014not talking about my own kids\u2014I shouldn\u2019t be surprised, but it often didn\u2019t come back to faith or intellectual beliefs. It came back to hurt; it came back to misunderstanding.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sort of Russell\u2019s quote a little bit, but somebody in the church or a group of people had done something, said something, and they\u2019ve seen it enough times, not just personally but in the church, they said, \u201cI\u2019m just done. I\u2019m out. I can\u2019t associate with those people,\u201d more than \u201cI can\u2019t associate with Christ.\u201d Is that common?<\/p>\n<p>John: I think so, and along with that I think comes the influence of social media. I have good friends who, because of Covid, stayed at home. Everyone stayed at home. When church came back, they just realized, \u201cHey, most of the time I go to church I just listen to a boring sermon anyway, and I don\u2019t really love the singing, so why don\u2019t I just watch a sermon that I really enjoy online, from somebody who\u2019s a better preacher than my pastor.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And \u201cI can get all the same kinds of goods that I get when I go to church, and I don\u2019t have to put up with people, who kind of get under my skin and irritate me.\u201d So I think a combination of those kinds of things are what keeps people away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But yet you say in the book, \u201cIf you\u2019re going to walk this journey, don\u2019t do it alone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>John: Don\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Don\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about what that means, because a lot of people do this alone, and it leads to a very dark place.<\/p>\n<p>John: Part of the reason they do is because it\u2019s hard to open up and admit to someone who is safe that you\u2019re wrestling through these questions. \u201cI have some more to say. I don\u2019t really know what I think about men\u2019s and women\u2019s role, or I don\u2019t really know what I think about LGBTQ issues.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you don\u2019t open up to the right person, then you can find yourself either shamed or you can find yourself maybe on the outs, people start talking about you because you have questions, and that\u2019s the worst thing in the world that can happen with somebody who\u2019s kind of on the fence and not knowing what they believe. So that\u2019s one reason why people don\u2019t open up and have these conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Probably a decade ago I had a student who was in my high school Worldview Apologetics class. He came out to me that he had totally become an atheist, out of the blue, like this kid was the opposite in my class. We went out to coffee twice, and one thing I said: \u201cTell me your story, how you got here.\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I went through this questioning period and just blocked out all voices and had to figure it out for myself.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cWell, you didn\u2019t block out all voices. You were listening to some voices. We\u2019re all listening to somebody.\u201d And then at the end I realized he had kind of dug in his heels, and all I said to him was, \u201cIf you ever revisit this question, one request: Will you let me just be a part of the conversation? That\u2019s it,\u201d and he promised. So I\u2019m hoping I get that text or that call someday. But when you do it alone, emotionally you can\u2019t handle it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: You can\u2019t intellectually ask the right questions. It\u2019s like you\u2019re setting yourself up for failure in so many circumstances.<\/p>\n<p>John: Even on top of that, too, I think that our culture is a very individualized culture, right? We need to be authentically who we are, and so I need to believe what I think is true, and I need to search that out for myself. This is a phenomenon that is really kind of a new thing in the western world. Nobody was deconstructing their faith 30 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>People had questions, people had some apologetics, but nobody was putting the whole of Christianity on the table and pulling it apart and asking which pieces lined up with their values like they do now. And that\u2019s because there\u2019s a shift in the way that we view the self, and the self is the one thing that we need to be loyal to, our inner feelings, who we are to be authentically me.<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s another reason why people kind of go about this alone, because we are primed to go that road, but historically it\u2019s an unhealthy practice because we\u2019re part of a community. We\u2019re not just individuals.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say, go into that a little deeper, because that is what we\u2019re hearing in our culture. \u201cThis is what I feel. This is what I believe.\u201d There are no absolutes in it, so \u201cwhat I believe, this is to be true.\u201d How do you respond to that, because you guys are doing that all the time?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Part of what\u2019s happened is a shift in what you might call the locus of truth. It used to be typically thought that \u201cTruth is something that I discover and I conform my life to, whether it\u2019s convenient or not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Now it\u2019s \u201cYou be you. Live your truth. Being authentic,\u201d like John said, \u201cTo the self is the highest form of the good.\u201d So in part, you can\u2019t just say one thing and fix this. I try to have conversations with young people about things like, \u201cWhat is freedom? What does it mean to be free?\u201d and point out that you cannot be free apart from truth. It\u2019s actually truth that sets us free.<\/p>\n<p>So for example, G.K. Chesterton said, \u201cYou can take a tiger and free it from the zoo, but don\u2019t free a tiger from its stripes. Having stripes is what it means to be a tiger. You understand the truth of something, then know how it should live.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I thought, \u201cWe have to have a conversation with young people about \u2018What is truth? Can we know truth? What\u2019s the relationship between truth and freedom? What is the good life?\u2019\u201d because they\u2019ve imbibed so many things without realizing it from watching TikTok videos, watching our world that says it\u2019s all about the self. So it takes a lot of deconstructing, so to speak, or rewiring these bad ideas.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And is there a way that we talk to our kids that they don\u2019t conform to that worldview? As your kids were growing up and they\u2019re little you\u2019re not saying, \u201cYou be you.\u201d What are your saying to your kids?<\/p>\n<p>John: My son is 14, so he\u2019s at the place where we can have these conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: I will tell him about this. I\u2019ll tell him about how there\u2019s been a shift in the way that Sean talked about where truth was outside and that we tried to conform ourselves to that rather than it being all about us. Then as we go through Walmart, and as we go through the record store, or as we go through the mall, I will start pointing out advertisements that say that \u201cIt\u2019s all about you. You be you. You\u2019re going to do what you want to do. It\u2019s your truth.\u201d It\u2019s at the point now where he will start pointing those things out to me.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>John: He\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, Dad, look at that ad over there. It\u2019s exactly what you talk about.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cYes.\u201d It\u2019s a very subtle message, but when it\u2019s reinforced over and over and over again, it\u2019s the highest value in our culture to be authentically who you are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: As parents we can\u2019t be lazy. We have to be intentional just to be aware, but it\u2019s hard because as parents we\u2019re tired, we\u2019re stressed, we have all kinds of demands on our lives. But our kids are at stake, and our relationships with them are at stake. I love that you guys are bringing this up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. I think what I heard you say is in a sense you\u2019re deconstructing true statements all around you all the time. And so when our kids start to deconstruct their own faith, that\u2019s not always a bad thing. They\u2019re doing the same thing, like \u201cWait, wait, wait, is this true? Let\u2019s deconstruct it and say \u2018yes\u2019.\u201d You talk in the book about primary beliefs and secondary. Often we walk away because of a secondary belief. Explain that a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: The main Christian message is God exists, He created the world, Jesus is the God-man who lived a sinless life, rose from the grave on the third day. These are essential beliefs. Then there are secondary and third-level beliefs that are very important for Christian living. They are not unimportant to have an answer for, but they\u2019re not the kind of questions that should make me jettison my faith.<\/p>\n<p>So partly what we\u2019re encouraging people to do is say, \u201cWhat are primary questions? What are secondary ones? What is the heart of the faith? Why do I believe?\u201d And again, it doesn\u2019t mean we shouldn\u2019t entertain and consider the importance of secondary beliefs, like \u201cIs the Bible inerrant?\u201d That\u2019s really important for its authority and how I live, but if I discovered a genuine error in the Bible, I wouldn\u2019t leave my faith the way I would if they found the body of Jesus in a tomb in Israel.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s just one kind of distinction that I can think empowers people when they come across a contradiction they can\u2019t answer, to say, \u201cOkay, I can take a deep breath. I realize what\u2019s at stake. Now let\u2019s go see if we can find a resolution to this question.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve talked to people who said, \u201cI can\u2019t buy that. I\u2019m out.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell you don\u2019t have to buy that to stay in.\u201d There are essentials, like you said, that are crucial, but there are many secondary that there\u2019s reasons I believe them, and there are reasons you should, I think, but it\u2019s not that critical.<\/p>\n<p>John: Yes, that\u2019s right. We have to be careful of setting up an all-or-nothing ultimatum, that you buy this entire package I\u2019m passing on to you, exactly as I\u2019m transmitting it to you, or you\u2019re not a Christian at all.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>John: Unfortunately what is usually getting passed on is not unadulterated pure Christianity. It\u2019s an interpretation, it\u2019s someone\u2019s interpretation of the Bible, and it can be very close to being what the Bible actually means, right? But nevertheless, it\u2019s an interpretation, and there are lots of different ways of being faithfully Christian, being biblical, being within the orthodox Christian faith, that don\u2019t look exactly like the church that I go to right now.<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s good for young people to know that, because there are some young people who love Jesus, who are committed, who believe right things about Him, but where their heart really is, is not in parsing out doctrine as much as it is getting out and serving and helping and trying to correct injustices. And if they feel as though that\u2019s not part of the faith, if they feel like Christianity ignores that, then it\u2019s going to be very hard if they\u2019re wired that way to stay where they\u2019re at.<\/p>\n<p>But if they know, \u201cHey, I can faithfully, lovingly follow Jesus, be committed and a disciple, and I can incorporate these passions that I have, but it might mean I\u2019m going to a different church over here,\u201d as long as it\u2019s within the broad scope of Christian orthodoxy and it is biblical in the broad sense, then they need to know that they can have the freedom to think through those issues.<\/p>\n<p>I think the Apostles Creed is a good set of fenceposts. Maybe some of the other really early creeds are good fenceposts that the early Christians all agreed on. Those would be the ones that we would want to say, \u201cHey, stay within here,\u201d and then, even within there, then you have different secondary issues that come often down to interpretation, and there should be some freedom on those.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was sitting here thinking, three of us out of the four at this table, sort of went on a skeptic\u2019s journey. My wife just never doubted. She\u2019s sort of perfect, and I think a lot of people do that. We had a guest on, Brant Hansen, who\u2019s written several books, and is a well-know radio host. He made a comment about his skeptic journey. I\u2019d love to play the clip and just let you two guys respond. Just whatever comes to your mind, respond to what Brant has to say right here.<\/p>\n<p>[Recorded Message]<\/p>\n<p>Brant Hansen: I am a highly skeptical person. I\u2019m so skeptical it chases me back around, because I feel like a lot of people are one-way skeptics when it comes to faith, and I think my experience of \u201cOkay, what are the alternatives?\u201d but I\u2019m skeptical about those, too, and ask questions. I don\u2019t think they work. I think Jesus is the only One Who makes any sense, for crying out loud, in the world\u2014<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter] \u2014because He calls out human nature and sin and then does something about it, instead of acting like, \u201cNo, we\u2019re all good,\u201d or \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do about it.\u201d Human nature is so obviously askew, but that chases me back around to Him calling out self-righteousness, calling out the way we won\u2019t rethink, calling out the way we want to point the finger at others, all that sort of stuff. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Any thoughts?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I\u2019m a highly skeptical person, too. I doubt everything, from shoes that I buy, to the car that I buy, to where I go on vacation. And for a while I used to beat myself up, because I have a friend with a gift of faith who just believes. He\u2019s like, \u201cGod is going to come through.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cHow do you know? Give me some proof.\u201d But then I realized he doesn\u2019t write 350-page dissertations or 600-page books on the evidence.<\/p>\n<p>There is space within the Christian community for people who naturally have faith, people who are highly skeptical, and I hear his story and I think of so many other young people who grew up in the church who are highly skeptical and felt like they didn\u2019t belong, and felt like somebody needed to say, \u201cYou know what? Your questions are okay, and they\u2019re invited, and God can help you through this.\u201d That\u2019s why we have so many people deconstructing in a way that leads to deconversion.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How did you like having John and Sean in the studio? I know this topic is right up your alley.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, this is my wheelhouse. I love what we\u2019re talking about. And I honestly, and I said this, I love the way they approached it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s fresh. It\u2019s so incredibly important for us in families and in the culture we\u2019re living in, to help especially our children, and even ourselves, know how to grapple with faith issues in a way that\u2019s healthy. Deconstruction sounds like a bad term, and actually if it\u2019s done well leads to a stronger faith. They modeled for us how to do this well, and as parents how to lead our families to walk through these discussions well, as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And how to not freak out. That\u2019s always helpful for me, who is. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it just helps us to know what this could look like, how can we do this, and how can we think about this in our culture as we\u2019re facing so many of these different things?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If there\u2019s something we should be talking about right now in this culture, this is it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Deconstruction is happening all around us. It often ends badly, but if we do it well as they\u2019ve modeled for us, it can really end in a beautiful place, a stronger faith for our families and our legacy. Let me just say to you who listen to FamilyLife, and some of you give financially to FamilyLife, thank you. You are allowing programs like this that will change the future of the next generation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we not only appreciate you, but we need you to continue to do this kind of work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and if you\u2019ve never jumped in, you can jump in right now. Jump in with us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Be our partners.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, that\u2019s really well said. Partnership is really community, and we appreciate you joining our FamilyLife community by donating to make what we do possible. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean McDowell and John Marriott on FamilyLife Today. Sean and John have written a book called Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith.<\/p>\n<p>This is a book that really strips away the nonessential aspects of Christianity, and then helps you to rebuild on solid biblical principles that shape a strong faith in our great Savior. You can pick up a copy of their book at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>And speaking of partnering, August is a really special time to give, because when you do, we\u2019ll send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course, and an engaging card game called Ferret Flush\u2122. The game will really provide wonderful opportunity for you and you family to bond and gain deeper insights into one another.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow is the last day to participate to receive the Art of Parenting course and the card game, so you can make your donation now at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again that number is 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d Or feel free to donate and drop us something in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow Dave and Ann Wilson are joined by Drew Hunter to talk about the importance of community and companionship in human life, and how the lack of it in modern society is affecting our friendships. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife\u00ae. All rights reserved. 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