{"id":280439,"date":"2023-09-15T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-09-15T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh\/"},"modified":"2025-04-22T13:57:41","modified_gmt":"2025-04-22T17:57:41","slug":"porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh\/","title":{"rendered":"Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived: Bob and Dannah Gresh"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In the wake of porn addiction, where you do turn? How do you rebuild trust after such intimate, searing betrayal? Authors Bob and Dannah Gresh share the pervasive realities of their own heartache\u2014and their own rocky path toward healing.<\/p>\n<p><strong fetchpriority=\"high\"><em>Scripture warns us not to trust in other people. We&#8217;re only supposed to trust in the Name of the Lord our God. That&#8217;s who we trust. \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him.\u201d What this is saying is that I can trust God with what&#8217;s happening in my marriage, even when I can&#8217;t trust Bob. So, I&#8217;m going to put all my trust in God. &#8212; Dannah Gresh<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the wake of porn addiction, where you do turn? How do you rebuild trust after such intimate, searing betrayal? Authors Bob and Dannah Gresh share the pervasive realities of their own heartache\u2014and their own rocky path toward healing. Scripture warns &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ab3a45e6-7235-463b-aee6-b154011dc3d2\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:49","filesize":"29.16M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-09-15 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2250],"podcast_series":[8676],"cwp_profile":[3140],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280439","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-porn-addiction-and-marriage","podcast_series-addiction-and-our-happily-even-after-bob-and-dannah-gresh","cwp_profile-bob-and-dannah-gresh","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280439\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280439\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"ltSYATBYt5\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh\/\">Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived: Bob and Dannah Gresh<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/porn-addiction-and-how-our-marriage-survived-bob-and-dannah-gresh\/embed\/#?secret=ltSYATBYt5\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived: Bob and Dannah Gresh&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"ltSYATBYt5\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012690"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ab3a45e6-7235-463b-aee6-b154011dc3d2\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:31:49"],"filesize":["29.16M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-15.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Bob and Dannah Gresh<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Happily Even After<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 15, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. I just want to give a heads-up before you listen to this next program. Today\u2019s conversation on FamilyLife Today covers some sensitive but important subjects that might not be suitable for younger ears. So, please use discretion when listening to this next broadcast.<\/p>\n<p>Alright, let\u2019s jump into it! I know some of you have actually already been to a Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage getaway, but we just wanted to make sure you\u2019ve heard that there is actually a lot that has changed. We have a new speaker lineup, an entirely different guidebook, and so much of the getaway has been changed intentionally for you and your spouse to grow together. So, right now would be a great time to head back to a Weekend to Remember. And now through September 18th, registration is actually 50% off. You can find a date and a location that works for you at WeekendtoRemember.com. That\u2019s WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Scripture warns us not to trust in other people. We\u2019re only supposed to trust in the Name of the Lord our God. That\u2019s who we trust. \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him.\u201d What this is saying is that I can trust God with what\u2019s happening in my marriage, even when I can\u2019t trust Bob. So, I\u2019m going to put all my trust in God.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Yesterday, we ended our episode on kind of a traumatic note.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A glass candy jar thrown so hard by a wife\u2014I\u2019m glad she missed! [Laughter] It ended up in the wall, but it was thrown that hard; it ended up stuck in the wall. That\u2019s pretty visually graphic.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was a nice slider curve ball. I don\u2019t know what it was; it wasn\u2019t a changeup.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: You know, some people are at a place in their story where that is just\u2014\u201cHow can you laugh about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But that\u2019s how much healing the Lord has brought to our hearts, that we can look at that really bad day and think, \u201cWe were out of our minds!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, let us introduce you.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: People are thinking, \u201cWho are we listening to?\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re with Dannah and Bob Gresh. You guys are speakers; you\u2019re authors.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Authors.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You do a lot in ministry to help people. Your most recent book is called Happily Even After: Letting God Redeem Your Marriage. The topic was really about porn.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Bob, you revealed to Dannah the secret that you\u2019d been holding on to; that you had been struggling with porn. And Dannah, I guess you didn\u2019t respond well\u2014[Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you didn\u2019t throw it in that moment!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014to that confession.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, in the moment that he confessed to me, I did have a measure of real God-control. That\u2019s all\u2014I don\u2019t know how to say it other than that. I went into problem-solving mode.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, take us back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Bob, you were so scared to open this up. You talk about the red chairs\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The red chairs.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is that where you told her?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And those red chairs left the house for a while, because we just couldn\u2019t have them in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You couldn\u2019t see them, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because of your confession.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: They were a painful thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, Dannah, you said that you had this God-moment\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014where you were rational.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Ann didn\u2019t have that moment [Laughter] when I told her, but I\u2019m glad you did!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, consider, I was praying for 18 months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I think it was because she was in shock, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It hadn\u2019t hit me yet.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I think it was shock.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Maybe a little bit of shock, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wait, wait, wait! You said 18 months?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I had been praying for 18 months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I knew you said you knew something was wrong, but it was that long?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014that you were like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what it is yet?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, and I know that sounds\u2014I\u2019m not a conflict avoider. I don\u2019t like conflict, but I really felt convicted that, whatever it was, it needed to be covered in prayer. Every time my counselor and I would check in, she would say, \u201cDo you know what\u2019s going on? Is it just stress from work? Is it financial stress?\u201d Because I had been having physical symptoms as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, I wasn\u2019t doing well.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And it would come up every once in a while, like every few months: \u201cAre you struggling? Have you fallen?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, Bob! She would ask you?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She would ask me!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I didn\u2019t ask\u2014I never asked\u2014it that directly.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, Bob, you know you\u2019re not good! What did you say?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d say things like, \u201cI\u2019m good.\u201d I would kind of, in my mind, say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m good right now. It\u2019s been a few weeks,\u201d or whatever. I would equivocate in that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But you didn\u2019t say to her, \u201cIt\u2019s been a few weeks.\u201d You just said, \u201cI\u2019m good?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cI\u2019m good. I\u2019m going on a trip tomorrow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d just say something to keep the conversation off-track or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re like me, but then when it came out\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Here\u2019s what I said: \u201cYou\u2019ve been lying to me!?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cAll this time? Are you kidding me?! How can I even trust you?\u201d Did you feel that?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, yes. Women will say, \u201cThe porn is painful, but the lying is far more devastating!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you hear that, guys?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I can deal with the porn. I can talk with you about the porn. We can get the help you need for the porn. But when you lie to me, that\u2019s a trust breach!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And that hurst so much more.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I felt worse about the lying than I did about the porn.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because I thought the porn, to me, was like an addiction sort of thing, but the lying was an integrity issue, and I wanted to be a man of integrity. I had these weird rules for how things worked, you know? Just total rationalizations, but I hated lying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, did you feel any reservation such as, \u201cThis is Bob\u2019s story. I don\u2019t have the right to tell somebody else\u201d? Or did you feel like, \u201cBob, you go ahead! Tell them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I told her to tell people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s good. I mean, I think some spouses think, \u201cI can\u2019t!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Especially those in leadership.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cIt\u2019s got to be just us!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Many. You know, you\u2019re not going to win [with] just you. You\u2019ve got to have community!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: If you want to guarantee that the problem will continue\u2014that the cycle will continue\u2014don\u2019t tell anybody. Keep it to yourself. But, if you want to win, then you\u2019ll have a great marriage; because I promise you [that] you can! We do have a great marriage. You need to tell someone. He needs to tell someone. You need to get help.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; so, Bob, you went away, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I went away for a few weeks. I actually went to the clinic that the stars went to, and it didn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It wasn\u2019t Christian. It was just kind of, \u201cTell your story, and God will heal you. Go to group,\u201d and things like that. They didn\u2019t really want the wives to be involved. It was kind of like, \u201cYour wife is co-dependent. Scratch an addict. and you\u2019ll find a co-dependent.\u201d So, all of the sudden, the wife is the problem, not part of the solution.<\/p>\n<p>So, one of the things that we talk about is that, it\u2019s kind of like I\u2019m driving down the road, and I run over Dannah with the car. When I slam on the brakes, I hit my chin on the dashboard. An ambulance comes, takes me into the ambulance, takes me to the hospital, and lets Dannah lie in the traffic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because I\u2019m the identified patient, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: So, this particular treatment program wasn\u2019t helping the wives as their website promised they would. And they were using labels like co-dependent. I really think it\u2019s important that we say this: codependency is a real thing. There are people\u2014I think all of us have some measure\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014of codependency in our lives; but it\u2019s a different thing to operate as co-dependent. So, for example, if you know your husband uses the computer late at night when you go to bed, and you passively say, \u201cOkay, well, I\u2019m going to bed,\u201d and you don\u2019t say, \u201cHey, where\u2019s your computer? You need to put it under the bed when I go to bed.\u201d That could be codependency. It could be, but the research doesn\u2019t really bear out what they used to say about that: \u201cIf someone\u2019s an addict, there is a codependent person in the relationship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It actually does, more often than not\u2014that person has been traumatized by whatever the addiction is. They might not be operating at their optimal self, because they\u2019re experiencing betrayal trauma. So, for me to be told that I\u2019m codependent, and that I\u2019m part of the problem, [made me say], \u201cOh, we were heat-seeking missiles, and we found each other because we were so broken.\u201d That was just--!<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the thing: that is what one body of addiction recovery, without the Word of God in it, will tell you. So, if you\u2019ve been hearing that and believing that, I\u2019m not saying that you haven\u2019t behaved codependently; it\u2019s possible that you have to be brave, look that in the face, and deal with it. But it\u2019s also really possible that you\u2019re experiencing the symptoms of betrayal, and that\u2019s why you\u2019re not operating at your best self.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you leave early out of the program?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes! And I was kind of a rebel there.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But the thing he was rebelling against was that the wives weren\u2019t involved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: So, yes, we both felt\u2014I was at home in Pennsylvania; he was there, and we both felt\u2014on the same day that God was saying, \u201cGo somewhere where your help is clinical and informed but saturated in the presence of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes. I left and went to a Christian counselor whom we love. His name is Pete Kuiper; he\u2019s in Colorado. How we describe Pete is that he\u2019s clinically informed, biblically-based. There is more to it than just praying it away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I also want to say this before we go further. Our story is our story.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I responded in a certain way. Dannah responded in a certain way. We get some criticism now and then for, \u201cWell, it might have worked out for you, but it didn\u2019t work out for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Or even, \u201cWhat kind of crazy lady are you to throw that candy jar?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Bob: So, you know, you need a group of friends.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, who know you!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Godly friends, to deal with your own particular circumstances.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because if you do what I did, it might not work out the way it did for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We feel pretty strongly that, if there has been a cycle, okay? I imagine there\u2019s probably used pornography, and it was an \u201cOops, that was a one-time thing.\u201d We haven\u2019t heard from those couples. We\u2019ve heard from the couples who are experiencing this cyclical thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is that the majority of people?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I do, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I mean, I haven\u2019t read anything that says it, but it\u2019s just\u2014for everyone we talk to, it\u2019s just\u2014very familiar.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes, doing it one time is like eating one Cheeto. That\u2019s very rare.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Or a Dorito?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know what I\u2019m saying? That\u2019s very rare.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Listen, here\u2019s the sad thing about it: most times, it started when they were young.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The average age today is 11 years old. So, when they were 11 or 13, they didn\u2019t know why their problem with their parents\u2019 divorce went away when they did that; they just knew that, for a while, there was a reprieve from the deep pain that was in their heart. At 11, 12, or 13, they find this medicine for a really big problem in their life. It might be just being bullied at school\u2014not \u201cjust,\u201d but I mean, it doesn\u2019t have to be a divorce.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It could be anything! So, by the time they\u2019re married, this is an ingrained, cyclical addiction.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s become their coping mechanism.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s a coping mechanism. So, what we really feel strongly about in the church is, yes, it has to be biblical care, but that marriage mentor at your church who\u2019s great at helping you not fight about your husband leaving the socks in the living room floor\u2014not that anyone at this table would ever do that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Nope!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Of course not.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: They\u2019re going to be in over their head when it comes to the betrayal trauma and the brain damage that porn can do to a person\u2019s thinking patterns. You need someone who has some clinical understanding. That way, they\u2019ll be able to know when to apply Scripture. A good example of this would be forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re telling a wife, \u201cOh, just forgive him,\u201d and there\u2019s been no repentance in his heart, so that this cycle is going to stop, you\u2019re just further adding to her trauma. That doesn\u2019t mean that what God\u2019s Word says about forgiveness isn\u2019t true. That just means it might not be the right time. We\u2019ve got to stabilize this pattern before we really sit down and verbalize that forgiveness in a healthier, and probably facilitated manner.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And repentance isn\u2019t crying.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know, for a guy to cry and say you\u2019re sorry; that\u2019s not repentance. You start to see new disciplines in his life, new ways of showing and rebuilding trust, and partly, not expecting trust right away. That\u2019s the hard thing. Obviously, she\u2019s not trusting. She wonders where I am and what I\u2019m doing. I have to take that on as a consequence. That\u2019s a consequence. I did that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I created that in her.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re not saying to Dannah, \u201cYou need to trust me!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No. Once I got to that point, I said, \u201cI own this. This is my fault.\u201d The trigger when the candy jar goes flying? I triggered that. So, was it good to get the candy jar there? No, but I did that.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that happened\u2014there are some triggers that happen when watching a movie or whatever; one day, when Dannah was gone, I came home and I cleaned the house, did the dishes; folded everything. I was so proud of myself! And Dannah walked in, and I was standing there like a hero.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tada!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She said, \u201cWhat\u2019s happening?\u201d And she was cold to me. I thought, \u201cWhat is going on?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Cold shoulder; silent treatment.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Finally, she said, \u201cThis is the kind of thing you did out of penance after you acted out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: He would fix things or run errands.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Or take care of the kids.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: So, I never did that again! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You have a dirty house now!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dannah, walk through how trust was rebuilt.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because it sounds like you both have put some work into that. That was my struggle: \u201cI don\u2019t know if I can trust you anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhat does this look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And she had every right not to trust me, because I lied.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Just like you said, Bob.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes. I really wrestled as I was writing the book. I thought, \u201cHave I really figured this out yet?\u201d When you study the Scriptures, Scripture warns us not to trust in other people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It says over and over again that we\u2019re only supposed to trust in the Name of the Lord our God. That\u2019s who we trust.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him.\u201d Several Scriptures say, \u201cDo not trust in mere man.\u201d So, I thought, \u201cOkay, what this is saying is, I can trust God with what\u2019s happening in my marriage, even when I can\u2019t trust Bob. He\u2019s not trustworthy right now. He hasn\u2019t built a pattern and a history of being safe for my heart in this specific way. So, I\u2019m going to put all my trust in God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But then, you want to be in a marriage that\u2019s trustworthy, right? So, as you trust God, how do you rebuild that together? Bob did something for me that was a great gift and the beginning of us building trust. He had something called a \u201cpersonal craziness index.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Well, Patrick Karnes had this in his book, and it\u2019s basically the concept of [picking] three or four things a day\u2014basic disciplines; it might be reading a chapter in a book or writing in a journal. Then you score yourself. The idea is that, if a person has an addiction or an addictive personality, usually basic disciplines start to fall off before the relapse or the acting out.<\/p>\n<p>One of mine, to this day, is making the bed. When I make my bed\u2014when I make our bed\u2014that\u2019s a physical sign to Dannah that, \u201cI\u2019m still here. This is still on my mind. I\u2019m still building this.\u201d If I start\u2014there are times when I\u2019ll get up and, two days in a row, I don\u2019t make the bed; in my mind, that\u2019s sending a message to Dannah.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: There were little things like that: going to meetings, checking in with my accountability partners. There were certain things that show her that I was earning her trust back. I think the biggest thing was, at some point, if she wanted to know where I was and track the phone or whatever\u2014the biggest thing for me was when I realized, \u201cThose are safety things for me. I shouldn\u2019t rebel against it.\u201d Me getting upset that she\u2019s not trusting me is like\u2014she started to use the words that she feels \u201csafe\u201d when I do those things. That was a good word for me. I wanted her to feel safe.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It wasn\u2019t, \u201cI don\u2019t trust you.\u201d It was, \u201cI want to feel safe.\u201d And that was a big vocabulary change for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Now, I should say, it\u2019s not like it was idyllic and Bob presented these wonderful \u201ccrazy index\u201d steps, and I trusted him explicitly.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: No. I withheld trust longer than I probably should have. It became a problem. And here again, you\u2019ve got to tell people, because I told my mentor, \u201cI don\u2019t trust him. I don\u2019t want to trust him. He doesn\u2019t deserve that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You could almost withhold it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Oh, I was withholding it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: My counselor said, \u201cYou know, Dannah, there\u2019s such a thing as being divorced without having a piece of paper that\u2019s signed, and that\u2019s where your heart is headed.\u201d That was a wakeup call!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And things would go great for three days; we\u2019d be really close, then I\u2019d come home, and she was silent.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Silent treatment; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Something had triggered her or whatever. It was brutal.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We went out to dinner with two friends: a pastor and my mentor. He just looked across the table at me, and he said, \u201cI\u2019m hearing a whole lot of things that Bob\u2019s put in place that are evidence that\u2019s he\u2019s trustworthy at this point. At some point, you have to decide if you\u2019re going to give him the gift of your trust or not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Give him your grace.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I decided that night, \u201cI\u2019m going to give him the gift of trust.\u201d But the reason is because of all these other things I saw: he\u2019s going to small group, he\u2019s going to accountability group. To this day, Bob has a Christian therapist that he sees almost every week; at least twice a month.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I call him a coach. I\u2019ve always had a coach.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s good!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I just think you have a coach for anything else you do.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And all of these other things. Now, there are days he forgets to make the bed, so I make my side of the bed. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You really do?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She does!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you ever think, \u201cWhy isn\u2019t the bed made?!\u201d Does it scare you?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, you know, it\u2019s not like one thing is the sign that he\u2019s off the rails.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: If I saw a lot of the things not happening\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014and there was an increased stress in his career at that time, those two things together would make me think, \u201cHmm. Someone better be checking in with him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I also want to say, in a short program like this, it\u2019s easy to collapse everything into all the healing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was a brutal year.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was a brutal year of high emotions, low emotions.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I would say it was really two years.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was going to say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019m out of the ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014was it a year?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It was about two years until I started to feel normal again.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I stayed out of the ministry for two years. My board wanted me back, and I said, \u201cI need to go above and beyond.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, what happens if he falls?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I would expect him to tell me within 24 hours. I\u2019ve told him that: \u201cWe\u2019re on 24-hour notice. I don\u2019t want to know three months or a week later. I want to know in real-time that this happens.\u201d And there will be grace. It will be another bump in our messy marriage, but at the end of the day, we want to have a marriage that looks like the love of Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Why does Christ love us? Why did He die for us? Because we are so messy. His grace covers that. So, there will be grace if that happens.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Are the chairs still hidden away?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: No, this is a cool thing about the chairs.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: In one of the books that Dannah wrote, our daughter-in-law, Alia, wrote the forward, not knowing anything about this. She talked about those two red chairs as being \u201cthe place we rocked our preemie babies.\u201d They stayed with us for 11 weeks. At the end, she said, \u201cI consider those chairs holy ground.\u201d We read that, and we thought, \u201cHoly cow!\u201d It was one of the greatest redemption things I think has ever happened to me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: The red chair\u2014I mean, just thinking about the furniture\u2014has been a great story. Each day I have to have discipline. You know, one of the 12 steps\u2014I know some people don\u2019t like it, but I find a lot of biblical stuff in there\u2014is \u201cone day at a time,\u201d to not presume your future, that you\u2019re going to be perfect. I need to be humble every day and stay in my disciplines. It keeps me tethered to the church, or else I think I could be a lone ranger. I\u2019d think I can do it myself.<\/p>\n<p>I think one of the things that porn is doing\u2014Satan always overplays his hand and uses counterfeits; I think one of the things it\u2019s doing\u2014is causing men of God to get back into connection.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve just got to say, the topic we hit today with Bob and Dannah Gresh about pornography in your marriage is such a critical conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m so glad they\u2019re talking about it and writing about it, because it has catastrophic effects on a marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and let me just say, to those of you who give financially to FamilyLife, \u201cthank you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Seriously! It\u2019s one of the thoughts I had when it was all done: these shows don\u2019t happen without supporters and donors and people who pray for us and give financially. Man, this is a topic\u2014I said it in the beginning\u2014that\u2019s a secret in marriages and in the church. Nobody\u2019s talking about it, and I\u2019m telling you, it takes courage to go there. They wrote a book about it; we had the courage to say, \u201cLet\u2019s talk about this.\u201d And you make this happen!<\/p>\n<p>Let me also add this: if this is something that impacted you, and I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re going to share this with others, because it\u2019s impacting so many marriages, I would invite you to join our family. Jump in and become a financial partner with us so that we can continue to have these kinds of critical conversations.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I\u2019m just thinking somebody\u2014some couple\u2014is going to hear this program today, and they\u2019re going to say something to their spouse they\u2019ve never\u2014the secret\u2019s going to come out, and they\u2019re going to start a path to healing and freedom because we had the courage to talk about it. That\u2019s because you give. Thank you!<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, I love that! Healing begins because of how God works, and He has worked so often through FamilyLife Today. I\u2019m grateful for that. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make a donation, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; that\u2019s 800-F as in \u201cfamily,\u201d L as in \u201clife,\u201d and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Bob and Dannah Gresh on FamilyLife Today. You know, Dannah\u2019s written a book called Happily Even After: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. In this book, she talks about how to forgive, how to live with joy, and [how to] celebrate as you participate in your husband\u2019s redemption story. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, how does marriage point us to God\u2019s love? What is marriage? Is it sharing a home? Is it being in love? Is it a promise? Well, author Sam Allberry is going to be joining Dave and Ann Wilson in the studio to talk about marriage, but how it\u2019s much more than all of these things I just mentioned. Marriage is a special sign that points us to God\u2019s unique love for us. They\u2019re going to talk about that kind of love that keeps on going, no matter what. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1745346511:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul><!-- wp:list --><\/p>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Connect with Bob and Dannah Gresh at <a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/\">dannahgresh.com\/<\/a>\u00a0or on Instagram <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dannah_gresh\/\">@dannah_gresh<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Buy Dannah's book <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/happily-even-after-let-god-redeem-your-marriage\">Happily Even After<\/a> on our shop<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Listen to Bob and Dannah's\u00a0podcast, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/happily-even-after-podcast\/\">Happily Even After<\/a>\", where they talk through the redemption and healing from addiction that they've experienced in their marriage.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Interested in connecting with a Christian counselor regarding an addiction. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.ccef.org\/find-a-counselor-near-you\/\">Use this resource to get started<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Revitalize your marriage: 50% off Weekend to Remember Getaways, Sep 4-18! Strengthen bonds, create lasting memories. Learn more at <a href=\"http:\/\/weekendtoremember.com\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper how to recover from addiction and move towards a healthier marriage on <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-recovery-our-story-ron-and-nan-deal\/\">this FamilyLife Today podcast<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Networ<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list --><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2023-09-15 09:15:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ab3a45e6-7235-463b-aee6-b154011dc3d2\/audio.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"_g_feedback_shortcode_f4099f3c624e56f1c078bd6e54923892b9502286":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_f4099f3c624e56f1c078bd6e54923892b9502286":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:97:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived: Bob and Dannah 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the wake of porn addiction, where you do turn? How do you rebuild trust after such intimate, searing betrayal? Authors Bob and Dannah Gresh share the pervasive realities of their own heartache\u2014and their own rocky path toward healing. Scripture warns ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul><!-- wp:list --><\/p>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<li>Connect with Bob and Dannah Gresh at <a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/\">dannahgresh.com\/<\/a>\u00a0or on Instagram <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dannah_gresh\/\">@dannah_gresh<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Buy Dannah's book <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/happily-even-after-let-god-redeem-your-marriage\">Happily Even After<\/a> on our shop<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Listen to Bob and Dannah's\u00a0podcast, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/dannahgresh.com\/happily-even-after-podcast\/\">Happily Even After<\/a>\", where they talk through the redemption and healing from addiction that they've experienced in their marriage.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Interested in connecting with a Christian counselor regarding an addiction. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.ccef.org\/find-a-counselor-near-you\/\">Use this resource to get started<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Revitalize your marriage: 50% off Weekend to Remember Getaways, Sep 4-18! Strengthen bonds, create lasting memories. Learn more at <a href=\"http:\/\/weekendtoremember.com\/\">weekendtoremember.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper how to recover from addiction and move towards a healthier marriage on <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/addiction-recovery-our-story-ron-and-nan-deal\/\">this FamilyLife Today podcast<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --> <!-- wp:list-item --><\/p>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Networ<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list-item --><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><!-- \/wp:list --><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Porn Addiction, and How Our Marriage Survived<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Bob and Dannah Gresh<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Happily Even After<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 15, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. I just want to give a heads-up before you listen to this next program. Today\u2019s conversation on FamilyLife Today covers some sensitive but important subjects that might not be suitable for younger ears. So, please use discretion when listening to this next broadcast.<\/p>\n<p>Alright, let\u2019s jump into it! I know some of you have actually already been to a Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage getaway, but we just wanted to make sure you\u2019ve heard that there is actually a lot that has changed. We have a new speaker lineup, an entirely different guidebook, and so much of the getaway has been changed intentionally for you and your spouse to grow together. So, right now would be a great time to head back to a Weekend to Remember. And now through September 18th, registration is actually 50% off. You can find a date and a location that works for you at WeekendtoRemember.com. That\u2019s WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Scripture warns us not to trust in other people. We\u2019re only supposed to trust in the Name of the Lord our God. That\u2019s who we trust. \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him.\u201d What this is saying is that I can trust God with what\u2019s happening in my marriage, even when I can\u2019t trust Bob. So, I\u2019m going to put all my trust in God.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Yesterday, we ended our episode on kind of a traumatic note.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A glass candy jar thrown so hard by a wife\u2014I\u2019m glad she missed! [Laughter] It ended up in the wall, but it was thrown that hard; it ended up stuck in the wall. That\u2019s pretty visually graphic.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It was a nice slider curve ball. I don\u2019t know what it was; it wasn\u2019t a changeup.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: You know, some people are at a place in their story where that is just\u2014\u201cHow can you laugh about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But that\u2019s how much healing the Lord has brought to our hearts, that we can look at that really bad day and think, \u201cWe were out of our minds!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, let us introduce you.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: People are thinking, \u201cWho are we listening to?\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re with Dannah and Bob Gresh. You guys are speakers; you\u2019re authors.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Authors.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You do a lot in ministry to help people. Your most recent book is called Happily Even After: Letting God Redeem Your Marriage. The topic was really about porn.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Bob, you revealed to Dannah the secret that you\u2019d been holding on to; that you had been struggling with porn. And Dannah, I guess you didn\u2019t respond well\u2014[Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you didn\u2019t throw it in that moment!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014to that confession.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, in the moment that he confessed to me, I did have a measure of real God-control. That\u2019s all\u2014I don\u2019t know how to say it other than that. I went into problem-solving mode.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, take us back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Bob, you were so scared to open this up. You talk about the red chairs\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The red chairs.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is that where you told her?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And those red chairs left the house for a while, because we just couldn\u2019t have them in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You couldn\u2019t see them, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because of your confession.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: They were a painful thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, Dannah, you said that you had this God-moment\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014where you were rational.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Ann didn\u2019t have that moment [Laughter] when I told her, but I\u2019m glad you did!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, consider, I was praying for 18 months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I think it was because she was in shock, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It hadn\u2019t hit me yet.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I think it was shock.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Maybe a little bit of shock, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wait, wait, wait! You said 18 months?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I had been praying for 18 months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I knew you said you knew something was wrong, but it was that long?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014that you were like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what it is yet?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, and I know that sounds\u2014I\u2019m not a conflict avoider. I don\u2019t like conflict, but I really felt convicted that, whatever it was, it needed to be covered in prayer. Every time my counselor and I would check in, she would say, \u201cDo you know what\u2019s going on? Is it just stress from work? Is it financial stress?\u201d Because I had been having physical symptoms as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes, I wasn\u2019t doing well.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And it would come up every once in a while, like every few months: \u201cAre you struggling? Have you fallen?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, Bob! She would ask you?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She would ask me!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I didn\u2019t ask\u2014I never asked\u2014it that directly.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, Bob, you know you\u2019re not good! What did you say?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d say things like, \u201cI\u2019m good.\u201d I would kind of, in my mind, say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m good right now. It\u2019s been a few weeks,\u201d or whatever. I would equivocate in that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But you didn\u2019t say to her, \u201cIt\u2019s been a few weeks.\u201d You just said, \u201cI\u2019m good?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: \u201cI\u2019m good. I\u2019m going on a trip tomorrow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019d just say something to keep the conversation off-track or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re like me, but then when it came out\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Here\u2019s what I said: \u201cYou\u2019ve been lying to me!?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cAll this time? Are you kidding me?! How can I even trust you?\u201d Did you feel that?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, yes. Women will say, \u201cThe porn is painful, but the lying is far more devastating!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you hear that, guys?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I can deal with the porn. I can talk with you about the porn. We can get the help you need for the porn. But when you lie to me, that\u2019s a trust breach!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And that hurst so much more.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I felt worse about the lying than I did about the porn.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because I thought the porn, to me, was like an addiction sort of thing, but the lying was an integrity issue, and I wanted to be a man of integrity. I had these weird rules for how things worked, you know? Just total rationalizations, but I hated lying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, did you feel any reservation such as, \u201cThis is Bob\u2019s story. I don\u2019t have the right to tell somebody else\u201d? Or did you feel like, \u201cBob, you go ahead! Tell them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I told her to tell people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s good. I mean, I think some spouses think, \u201cI can\u2019t!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Especially those in leadership.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cIt\u2019s got to be just us!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Many. You know, you\u2019re not going to win [with] just you. You\u2019ve got to have community!<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: If you want to guarantee that the problem will continue\u2014that the cycle will continue\u2014don\u2019t tell anybody. Keep it to yourself. But, if you want to win, then you\u2019ll have a great marriage; because I promise you [that] you can! We do have a great marriage. You need to tell someone. He needs to tell someone. You need to get help.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; so, Bob, you went away, right?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I went away for a few weeks. I actually went to the clinic that the stars went to, and it didn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It wasn\u2019t Christian. It was just kind of, \u201cTell your story, and God will heal you. Go to group,\u201d and things like that. They didn\u2019t really want the wives to be involved. It was kind of like, \u201cYour wife is co-dependent. Scratch an addict. and you\u2019ll find a co-dependent.\u201d So, all of the sudden, the wife is the problem, not part of the solution.<\/p>\n<p>So, one of the things that we talk about is that, it\u2019s kind of like I\u2019m driving down the road, and I run over Dannah with the car. When I slam on the brakes, I hit my chin on the dashboard. An ambulance comes, takes me into the ambulance, takes me to the hospital, and lets Dannah lie in the traffic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because I\u2019m the identified patient, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: So, this particular treatment program wasn\u2019t helping the wives as their website promised they would. And they were using labels like co-dependent. I really think it\u2019s important that we say this: codependency is a real thing. There are people\u2014I think all of us have some measure\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014of codependency in our lives; but it\u2019s a different thing to operate as co-dependent. So, for example, if you know your husband uses the computer late at night when you go to bed, and you passively say, \u201cOkay, well, I\u2019m going to bed,\u201d and you don\u2019t say, \u201cHey, where\u2019s your computer? You need to put it under the bed when I go to bed.\u201d That could be codependency. It could be, but the research doesn\u2019t really bear out what they used to say about that: \u201cIf someone\u2019s an addict, there is a codependent person in the relationship.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It actually does, more often than not\u2014that person has been traumatized by whatever the addiction is. They might not be operating at their optimal self, because they\u2019re experiencing betrayal trauma. So, for me to be told that I\u2019m codependent, and that I\u2019m part of the problem, [made me say], \u201cOh, we were heat-seeking missiles, and we found each other because we were so broken.\u201d That was just--!<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the thing: that is what one body of addiction recovery, without the Word of God in it, will tell you. So, if you\u2019ve been hearing that and believing that, I\u2019m not saying that you haven\u2019t behaved codependently; it\u2019s possible that you have to be brave, look that in the face, and deal with it. But it\u2019s also really possible that you\u2019re experiencing the symptoms of betrayal, and that\u2019s why you\u2019re not operating at your best self.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you leave early out of the program?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes! And I was kind of a rebel there.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: But the thing he was rebelling against was that the wives weren\u2019t involved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: So, yes, we both felt\u2014I was at home in Pennsylvania; he was there, and we both felt\u2014on the same day that God was saying, \u201cGo somewhere where your help is clinical and informed but saturated in the presence of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes. I left and went to a Christian counselor whom we love. His name is Pete Kuiper; he\u2019s in Colorado. How we describe Pete is that he\u2019s clinically informed, biblically-based. There is more to it than just praying it away.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I also want to say this before we go further. Our story is our story.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I responded in a certain way. Dannah responded in a certain way. We get some criticism now and then for, \u201cWell, it might have worked out for you, but it didn\u2019t work out for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Or even, \u201cWhat kind of crazy lady are you to throw that candy jar?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Bob: So, you know, you need a group of friends.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, who know you!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Godly friends, to deal with your own particular circumstances.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Because if you do what I did, it might not work out the way it did for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We feel pretty strongly that, if there has been a cycle, okay? I imagine there\u2019s probably used pornography, and it was an \u201cOops, that was a one-time thing.\u201d We haven\u2019t heard from those couples. We\u2019ve heard from the couples who are experiencing this cyclical thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is that the majority of people?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I do, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I mean, I haven\u2019t read anything that says it, but it\u2019s just\u2014for everyone we talk to, it\u2019s just\u2014very familiar.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Yes, doing it one time is like eating one Cheeto. That\u2019s very rare.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Or a Dorito?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know what I\u2019m saying? That\u2019s very rare.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Listen, here\u2019s the sad thing about it: most times, it started when they were young.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: The average age today is 11 years old. So, when they were 11 or 13, they didn\u2019t know why their problem with their parents\u2019 divorce went away when they did that; they just knew that, for a while, there was a reprieve from the deep pain that was in their heart. At 11, 12, or 13, they find this medicine for a really big problem in their life. It might be just being bullied at school\u2014not \u201cjust,\u201d but I mean, it doesn\u2019t have to be a divorce.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It could be anything! So, by the time they\u2019re married, this is an ingrained, cyclical addiction.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s become their coping mechanism.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It\u2019s a coping mechanism. So, what we really feel strongly about in the church is, yes, it has to be biblical care, but that marriage mentor at your church who\u2019s great at helping you not fight about your husband leaving the socks in the living room floor\u2014not that anyone at this table would ever do that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Nope!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Of course not.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: They\u2019re going to be in over their head when it comes to the betrayal trauma and the brain damage that porn can do to a person\u2019s thinking patterns. You need someone who has some clinical understanding. That way, they\u2019ll be able to know when to apply Scripture. A good example of this would be forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re telling a wife, \u201cOh, just forgive him,\u201d and there\u2019s been no repentance in his heart, so that this cycle is going to stop, you\u2019re just further adding to her trauma. That doesn\u2019t mean that what God\u2019s Word says about forgiveness isn\u2019t true. That just means it might not be the right time. We\u2019ve got to stabilize this pattern before we really sit down and verbalize that forgiveness in a healthier, and probably facilitated manner.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And repentance isn\u2019t crying.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: You know, for a guy to cry and say you\u2019re sorry; that\u2019s not repentance. You start to see new disciplines in his life, new ways of showing and rebuilding trust, and partly, not expecting trust right away. That\u2019s the hard thing. Obviously, she\u2019s not trusting. She wonders where I am and what I\u2019m doing. I have to take that on as a consequence. That\u2019s a consequence. I did that!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I created that in her.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re not saying to Dannah, \u201cYou need to trust me!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No. Once I got to that point, I said, \u201cI own this. This is my fault.\u201d The trigger when the candy jar goes flying? I triggered that. So, was it good to get the candy jar there? No, but I did that.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that happened\u2014there are some triggers that happen when watching a movie or whatever; one day, when Dannah was gone, I came home and I cleaned the house, did the dishes; folded everything. I was so proud of myself! And Dannah walked in, and I was standing there like a hero.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tada!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She said, \u201cWhat\u2019s happening?\u201d And she was cold to me. I thought, \u201cWhat is going on?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Cold shoulder; silent treatment.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Finally, she said, \u201cThis is the kind of thing you did out of penance after you acted out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: He would fix things or run errands.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Or take care of the kids.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: So, I never did that again! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You have a dirty house now!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dannah, walk through how trust was rebuilt.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because it sounds like you both have put some work into that. That was my struggle: \u201cI don\u2019t know if I can trust you anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhat does this look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And she had every right not to trust me, because I lied.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Just like you said, Bob.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes. I really wrestled as I was writing the book. I thought, \u201cHave I really figured this out yet?\u201d When you study the Scriptures, Scripture warns us not to trust in other people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It says over and over again that we\u2019re only supposed to trust in the Name of the Lord our God. That\u2019s who we trust.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him.\u201d Several Scriptures say, \u201cDo not trust in mere man.\u201d So, I thought, \u201cOkay, what this is saying is, I can trust God with what\u2019s happening in my marriage, even when I can\u2019t trust Bob. He\u2019s not trustworthy right now. He hasn\u2019t built a pattern and a history of being safe for my heart in this specific way. So, I\u2019m going to put all my trust in God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But then, you want to be in a marriage that\u2019s trustworthy, right? So, as you trust God, how do you rebuild that together? Bob did something for me that was a great gift and the beginning of us building trust. He had something called a \u201cpersonal craziness index.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Well, Patrick Karnes had this in his book, and it\u2019s basically the concept of [picking] three or four things a day\u2014basic disciplines; it might be reading a chapter in a book or writing in a journal. Then you score yourself. The idea is that, if a person has an addiction or an addictive personality, usually basic disciplines start to fall off before the relapse or the acting out.<\/p>\n<p>One of mine, to this day, is making the bed. When I make my bed\u2014when I make our bed\u2014that\u2019s a physical sign to Dannah that, \u201cI\u2019m still here. This is still on my mind. I\u2019m still building this.\u201d If I start\u2014there are times when I\u2019ll get up and, two days in a row, I don\u2019t make the bed; in my mind, that\u2019s sending a message to Dannah.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: There were little things like that: going to meetings, checking in with my accountability partners. There were certain things that show her that I was earning her trust back. I think the biggest thing was, at some point, if she wanted to know where I was and track the phone or whatever\u2014the biggest thing for me was when I realized, \u201cThose are safety things for me. I shouldn\u2019t rebel against it.\u201d Me getting upset that she\u2019s not trusting me is like\u2014she started to use the words that she feels \u201csafe\u201d when I do those things. That was a good word for me. I wanted her to feel safe.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: It wasn\u2019t, \u201cI don\u2019t trust you.\u201d It was, \u201cI want to feel safe.\u201d And that was a big vocabulary change for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Now, I should say, it\u2019s not like it was idyllic and Bob presented these wonderful \u201ccrazy index\u201d steps, and I trusted him explicitly.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: No.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: No. I withheld trust longer than I probably should have. It became a problem. And here again, you\u2019ve got to tell people, because I told my mentor, \u201cI don\u2019t trust him. I don\u2019t want to trust him. He doesn\u2019t deserve that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You could almost withhold it.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Oh, I was withholding it!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: My counselor said, \u201cYou know, Dannah, there\u2019s such a thing as being divorced without having a piece of paper that\u2019s signed, and that\u2019s where your heart is headed.\u201d That was a wakeup call!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: And things would go great for three days; we\u2019d be really close, then I\u2019d come home, and she was silent.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Silent treatment; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: Something had triggered her or whatever. It was brutal.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: We went out to dinner with two friends: a pastor and my mentor. He just looked across the table at me, and he said, \u201cI\u2019m hearing a whole lot of things that Bob\u2019s put in place that are evidence that\u2019s he\u2019s trustworthy at this point. At some point, you have to decide if you\u2019re going to give him the gift of your trust or not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Give him your grace.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I decided that night, \u201cI\u2019m going to give him the gift of trust.\u201d But the reason is because of all these other things I saw: he\u2019s going to small group, he\u2019s going to accountability group. To this day, Bob has a Christian therapist that he sees almost every week; at least twice a month.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I call him a coach. I\u2019ve always had a coach.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s good!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I just think you have a coach for anything else you do.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: And all of these other things. Now, there are days he forgets to make the bed, so I make my side of the bed. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You really do?<\/p>\n<p>Bob: She does!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do you ever think, \u201cWhy isn\u2019t the bed made?!\u201d Does it scare you?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Well, you know, it\u2019s not like one thing is the sign that he\u2019s off the rails.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: If I saw a lot of the things not happening\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: \u2014and there was an increased stress in his career at that time, those two things together would make me think, \u201cHmm. Someone better be checking in with him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I also want to say, in a short program like this, it\u2019s easy to collapse everything into all the healing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was a brutal year.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: This was a brutal year of high emotions, low emotions.<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I would say it was really two years.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was going to say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I\u2019m out of the ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014was it a year?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: It was about two years until I started to feel normal again.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: I stayed out of the ministry for two years. My board wanted me back, and I said, \u201cI need to go above and beyond.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, what happens if he falls?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: I would expect him to tell me within 24 hours. I\u2019ve told him that: \u201cWe\u2019re on 24-hour notice. I don\u2019t want to know three months or a week later. I want to know in real-time that this happens.\u201d And there will be grace. It will be another bump in our messy marriage, but at the end of the day, we want to have a marriage that looks like the love of Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Why does Christ love us? Why did He die for us? Because we are so messy. His grace covers that. So, there will be grace if that happens.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Are the chairs still hidden away?<\/p>\n<p>Dannah: No, this is a cool thing about the chairs.<\/p>\n<p>Bob: In one of the books that Dannah wrote, our daughter-in-law, Alia, wrote the forward, not knowing anything about this. She talked about those two red chairs as being \u201cthe place we rocked our preemie babies.\u201d They stayed with us for 11 weeks. At the end, she said, \u201cI consider those chairs holy ground.\u201d We read that, and we thought, \u201cHoly cow!\u201d It was one of the greatest redemption things I think has ever happened to me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Bob: The red chair\u2014I mean, just thinking about the furniture\u2014has been a great story. Each day I have to have discipline. You know, one of the 12 steps\u2014I know some people don\u2019t like it, but I find a lot of biblical stuff in there\u2014is \u201cone day at a time,\u201d to not presume your future, that you\u2019re going to be perfect. I need to be humble every day and stay in my disciplines. It keeps me tethered to the church, or else I think I could be a lone ranger. I\u2019d think I can do it myself.<\/p>\n<p>I think one of the things that porn is doing\u2014Satan always overplays his hand and uses counterfeits; I think one of the things it\u2019s doing\u2014is causing men of God to get back into connection.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve just got to say, the topic we hit today with Bob and Dannah Gresh about pornography in your marriage is such a critical conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m so glad they\u2019re talking about it and writing about it, because it has catastrophic effects on a marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and let me just say, to those of you who give financially to FamilyLife, \u201cthank you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Seriously! It\u2019s one of the thoughts I had when it was all done: these shows don\u2019t happen without supporters and donors and people who pray for us and give financially. Man, this is a topic\u2014I said it in the beginning\u2014that\u2019s a secret in marriages and in the church. Nobody\u2019s talking about it, and I\u2019m telling you, it takes courage to go there. They wrote a book about it; we had the courage to say, \u201cLet\u2019s talk about this.\u201d And you make this happen!<\/p>\n<p>Let me also add this: if this is something that impacted you, and I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re going to share this with others, because it\u2019s impacting so many marriages, I would invite you to join our family. Jump in and become a financial partner with us so that we can continue to have these kinds of critical conversations.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I\u2019m just thinking somebody\u2014some couple\u2014is going to hear this program today, and they\u2019re going to say something to their spouse they\u2019ve never\u2014the secret\u2019s going to come out, and they\u2019re going to start a path to healing and freedom because we had the courage to talk about it. That\u2019s because you give. Thank you!<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, I love that! Healing begins because of how God works, and He has worked so often through FamilyLife Today. I\u2019m grateful for that. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make a donation, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; that\u2019s 800-F as in \u201cfamily,\u201d L as in \u201clife,\u201d and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Bob and Dannah Gresh on FamilyLife Today. You know, Dannah\u2019s written a book called Happily Even After: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. In this book, she talks about how to forgive, how to live with joy, and [how to] celebrate as you participate in your husband\u2019s redemption story. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, how does marriage point us to God\u2019s love? What is marriage? Is it sharing a home? Is it being in love? Is it a promise? Well, author Sam Allberry is going to be joining Dave and Ann Wilson in the studio to talk about marriage, but how it\u2019s much more than all of these things I just mentioned. Marriage is a special sign that points us to God\u2019s unique love for us. They\u2019re going to talk about that kind of love that keeps on going, no matter what. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280439","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280439"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280439"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280439"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280439"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280439"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280439"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280439"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}