{"id":280431,"date":"2023-09-27T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-09-27T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon\/"},"modified":"2025-05-06T16:39:18","modified_gmt":"2025-05-06T20:39:18","slug":"dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon\/","title":{"rendered":"Dating or Engaged\u2013with Purpose: Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Want to do relationships differently? Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon point you in the right direction for dating, engagement, or marriage with purpose and depth.<\/p>\n<p><strong fetchpriority=\"high\"><em>I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. [Laughter] I remember one time I thought, \u201cI&#8217;m going to help make the spaghetti.\u201d This is in the first three months of marriage. I&#8217;m in there stirring the spaghetti, thinking \u201cLook at me. I&#8217;m such a great husband!\u201d Then my wife comes in after me. This still happens today. She looked up, and there was spaghetti sauce on the ceiling. &#8212; Spencer Harmon<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Want to do relationships differently? Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon point you in the right direction for dating, engagement, or marriage with purpose and depth. I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/fd87439f-fdca-42c5-9ac0-b154011da6a6\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:44","filesize":"25.42M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-09-27 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2242],"podcast_series":[8679],"cwp_profile":[9893,9894],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280431","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-dating-with-purpose","podcast_series-relationships-done-right-sean-perron-and-spencer-harmon","cwp_profile-sean-perron","cwp_profile-spencer-harmon","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280431\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280431\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"aAB2Ba2IAm\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon\/\">Dating or Engaged\u2013with Purpose: Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dating-or-engaged-with-purpose-sean-perron-spencer-harmon\/embed\/#?secret=aAB2Ba2IAm\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Dating or Engaged\u2013with Purpose: Sean Perron &#038; Spencer Harmon&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"aAB2Ba2IAm\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012700"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/fd87439f-fdca-42c5-9ac0-b154011da6a6\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:27:44"],"filesize":["25.42M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Check out more from Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon at <a href=\"https:\/\/unspokenblog.com\/\">unspokenblog.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/unspokenblog.com\/2017\/06\/19\/sharing-your-sexual-history\/\">Learn how to share of your sexual history<\/a> with a new romantic interest.<br \/>\nLearn more about Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon's church First Baptist Jacksonville<a href=\"https:\/\/fbcjax.com\/category\/first-thoughts\/\"> ..and discover their writings<\/a><br \/>\nIf you're interested in hearing more from Sean and Spencer, listen to their <a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-677188395\">Unspoken Blogs podcast<\/a><br \/>\nPurchase Sean and Spencer's books: <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-on-dating\/\">Letters to a Romantic: On Dating<\/a>,<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-on-engagement\/\">Letters to a Romantic: On Engagement,<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-first-years-of-marriage\/\">Letters to a Romantic: First Years of Marriage<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-27.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Dating or Engaged \u2013 with Purpose<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Relationships Done Right (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 27, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. [Laughter] I remember one time I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to help make the spaghetti.\u201d This is in the first three months of marriage. I\u2019m in there stirring the spaghetti, thinking \u201cLook at me. I\u2019m such a great husband!\u201d Then my wife comes in after me. This still happens today. She looked up, and there was spaghetti sauce on the ceiling.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Noooo!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: She said, \u201cYou\u2019re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We have Spencer Harmon and Sean Perron back in the studio with us. You guys have written this really interesting trilogy, I guess you\u2019d call it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re like The Lord of the Rings, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There we go.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right. He\u2019s definitely Gandolf.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Just like Lord of the Rings.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He\u2019s Gandolf? [Laughter] We talked about it yesterday, Letters to a Romantic. I love that title. By the way, okay, I have both of you here. Who came up with the title?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I think it was you.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think it was me also. Yes, I\u2019ll take credit for that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Look at that, Sean!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Way to defer!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you missed yesterday, both these guys are married; four kids and almost three?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And now we know what the third one is.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019ve been married nine and eleven years.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So Letters to a Romantic: On Dating, On Engagement, and On Marriage. You know, we could separate all three. We talked a lot yesterday about dating, and that\u2019s why Ann\u2019s story of our own sons\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Today, let\u2019s talk about engagement, maybe marriage. We\u2019ll see where it goes. But as you think about dating\u2014we didn\u2019t even bring this up yesterday: what\u2019s the goal? For a Christian that wants to honor God in dating, is it even biblical? What\u2019s the goal?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The way I define it in our book is dating is \u201cexploring with purpose whether or not you should get married\u201d with somebody. Here\u2019s what I mean by that. There\u2019s an exploration dynamic in dating, right? You don\u2019t go on your first date with a girl and say, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s my 15 questions to figure out if you\u2019re going to be my wife.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, please don\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s a great way to not get a second date.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: But there\u2019s an exploratory element of this. \u201cHey, we\u2019re getting to know each other. Can we laugh together? What do you believe about life? What are your friends like? We\u2019re just spending time together and having fun together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhere are you spiritually?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cWhere are you spiritually? I want to know what your walk with the Lord is. Where do you go to church?\u201d All of those things. There\u2019s an exploratory element that requires some freedom, but it\u2019s always governed by purpose, right? We don\u2019t date just for the thrill of knowing, \u201cThere\u2019s a pretty person that likes me,\u201d right? That\u2019s selfish, and that\u2019s not loving your neighbor as you love yourself.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a purpose that\u2019s always governing what we\u2019re doing in our exploration, and that purpose is marriage. \u201cCan I marry this person?\u201d And when we think about marriage, we\u2019re thinking about it biblically. \u201cAre you someone who is trusting in Jesus Christ? What role and how much authority does God\u2019s Word have in your life? What\u2019s your vision for your life? What do you want to do? Where does the local church play into your life?\u201d All of those things are governing the way that you explore things.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And some people are listening and thinking, \u201cI just wanted to have fun! What was all that?\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you\u2019re saying there should be a purpose behind it, because marriage is pretty important.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, that\u2019s right, and ultimately we can\u2019t be selfish, right? Many of us are so worldly in how we think about dating. We think, \u201cThe point of dating is for me to have the maximum amount of fun and pleasure as possible.\u201d That\u2019s incredibly selfish to say! What if the point of marriage were to love and serve this person, and explore whether or not you could get married for the glory of God?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes. \u201cWhatever you do, whether you eat, drink, or go on a date, or if you eat and drink on a date, do it all to the glory of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that true pleasure? Is that your definition?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It is. \u201cGlorify God and enjoy Him forever.\u201d I think when you do that, when you lose yourself and you have pleasures at the right hand of God, Psalm 16 talks about [being] filled with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. The happiest being that exists is God. God is happier than anyone has ever thought about.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHeaven is a world of joy. Heaven is a world of love,\u201d Jonathan Edwards says, so we will spend an eternity getting to know this happy God. Because happiness originated with God, it was His idea, then we are happiest when we are loving Him, when we\u2019re enjoying Him, when we\u2019re knowing Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the things you mentioned\u2014again, as you talk, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cYou did kiss dating goodbye?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cOr you didn\u2019t?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes and no.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys sort of grew up\u2014you\u2019re a little young, but that was right as you were probably little boys coming in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, no, that was big. It was big.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you kissed it goodbye, or you kissed it hello?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think it\u2019s a mistake to understand dating as a whole category as sinful.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: But it all depends on what you do with it. The purpose of dating is to pursue marriage, so if you\u2019re dating selfishly, if you\u2019re dating aimlessly, then you\u2019re going to wind up in a cul-de-sac of brokenness and pain and heartache that you can\u2019t get out of. But if you use dating to glorify God, I think that\u2019s possible, so that\u2019s why I say \u201cYes and no.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>We didn\u2019t jettison the entire concept, but we are seeking to be purposeful and intentional and biblical on how we go about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys have done this right. As I look at you, I should say you\u2019ve done it biblically.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Your dating experience, your wedding experience\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Engagement.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Then you get married. You\u2019ve been married a while; you have kids. Is there anything you wish you would have known going into these first, even, five to ten years? \u201cOooh, I wish somebody would have said this to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: In the marriage book, I wrote the first chapter, and I remember sitting down, thinking, \u201cHow do we start this thing? How do we\u2014?\u201d I wrote this sentence, and that\u2019s the first thing that popped into my mind when you asked this question: \u201cMarriage is an experiment in exposure.\u201d Let me explain what I mean by that. I did not understand how much marriage was going to expose me, like in my heart, right?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Good and bad.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: You walk into marriage and you know\u2014we did premarital counseling so we know in theory: \u201cHey, you\u2019re going to go into marriage and listen. You\u2019re going to see your own sin.\u201d But then you get into marriage, and you get this 3-D picture of your sin, and it\u2019s everywhere you look, because you\u2019re living life with another person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s good. At least you saw your own sin. I\u2019m like, \u201cLook at his sin!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I think that it is my pride, though, that actually motivates that answer, because I think you go into marriage thinking8 \u201cWell, I think I know the ways that they need to grow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: But then you realize, \u201cWait a second. I\u2019m the common denominator in all our problems.\u201d [Laughter] That was a shocker. That was something that I had to really wrestle with.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m an internal processor, so there are no loud explosions of anger with me. All of this stuff happens inside of me, and I\u2019m wrestling with the Lord. \u201cI am not as far along as I thought I was before we said, \u2018I do.\u2019\u201d It was a humbling experience for me, and actually motivated a lot of what we wrote.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, I bet.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cOkay, we have to do this all over again. We have to figure out how we apply the gospel of Christ to all these different areas, all these different firsts of marriage. How do we apply it here?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Was there one that jumps out? Because when I think of me, and this is 42 years ago, I was shocked at how selfish I was, and I was even more shocked at how much more selfish she was than I was. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was shocked at how selfish you were, too! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I knew I was selfish. Like you said, then it was 3D. Do you have something like that? \u201cI just didn\u2019t realize I was this bad?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And mine was pride. I didn\u2019t realize how prideful I was.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: This is going to sound really funny, but I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. [Laughter] I remember one time I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to help make the spaghetti.\u201d This is in the first three months of marriage. I\u2019m in there stirring the spaghetti pan, thinking, \u201cLook at me. I\u2019m such a great husband!\u201d Then my wife comes in after me. This still happens today.<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s looking around, like \u201cI don\u2019t know how it\u2019s humanly possible for you to make such a mess.\u201d She looked up, and there was spaghetti sauce on the ceiling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Noooo!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: She said, \u201cHow is there spaghetti sauce\u2014how did you even--you\u2019re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?\u201d She was very, very gracious with me. The other thing, I think, was I did not realize that there was a lot of fear of man and people pleasing in my heart, because when you\u2019re a man and you get married, God is calling you to lead, and to be courageous, and to have a vision, and to set direction, and to lead your family according to God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>I realized there\u2019s still just a lot of fear there. There\u2019s a lot of timidity that I had to overcome and say, \u201cOkay, this precious woman that God has given me is counting on me to lead us spiritually.\u201d And then we had kids right away. We got pregnant three months into marriage. It was like, \u201cOkay, now there are these sweet little people that are looking at me for leadership, too, and I need to lead this family spiritually.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There was fear that I had to overcome and grow in courage in the Lord in doing that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s real.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I realized that I was on a different time schedule than Jenny. By saying that, that\u2019s part of my sin. I realized that my time, the way it needed to work, was the correct way; and the way that she wanted it to work was not aligned with mine. That\u2019s a small thing, but it\u2019s the small things that add up. And if you don\u2019t keep short accounts with one another, if you\u2019re not continually seeking to confess, \u201cOh, I blew it just then;\u201d \u201cI was trying to rush you out the door;\u201d \u201cI was delaying, dragging my feet, because I didn\u2019t think we needed to be there on time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If I don\u2019t confess that right away and say, \u201cWould you please forgive me? That was arrogant. I shouldn\u2019t have said that. That was sinful. I was harsh. I was rough. I wasn\u2019t gentle.\u201d When you keep short accounts, it serves your whole family. It serves the Lord, it serves the church, it serves the people you\u2019re around because people know, \u201cOh, they\u2019re not harboring bitterness. They\u2019re not keeping wrongs. They\u2019re real. They\u2019re trying to confess their sin. They\u2019re trying to repent,\u201d and that\u2019s what the Lord wants\u2014for us to honor Him. So, the small things do add up.<\/p>\n<p>I thought of one in engagement, though. This is a bit of a curve ball. You asked what you wished you knew in advance. I did not anticipate the onslaught of bad advice I would receive. I was struck over and over again with people\u2019s opinions. There are so many opinions. Everyone has an opinion about everything, which is why we wrote a book.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Which is exactly why!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, we have opinions, too! [Laughter] I had people come up and say, \u201cYou know what? You guys seem happy now, but just wait until the day after you\u2019re married!\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, what happens the day after you get married?\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cWell, that was really weird, Jenny. These people\u2014something bad must happen the second day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then I had people say, \u201cOh, you know what? You\u2019re going to do great the first six months of marriage; just wait \u2018til year one. In year one, that\u2019s when all of the hordes of Satan come and visit your home.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat is wrong with everyone? Everyone is doom and gloom, prophesying the world\u2019s going to end at some determined point in the relationship, in marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I thought, \u201cYou know what? I need to figure this out! Is that true? Is that what they\u2019re saying? Is there really something that happens at year five, or something that happens at year whatever, that makes this really bad?\u201d The answer is no; the answer is we\u2019re sinners, and that\u2019s going to happen at any time. But praise God for the gospel, that has mercy and grace to fill us up so that we can change. We don\u2019t have to be stuck in our sinful preferences or sinful idiosyncrasies. We can really grow and change over time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Mmm, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I was thinking I had no idea\u2014and I didn\u2019t really deal with it for more than five years\u2014how harsh my words were. She told me, but I didn\u2019t believe it. I didn\u2019t see it, and it\u2019s a long story. I had a videotape catch me on tape, and I saw it for the first time. A few years ago\u2014maybe you know the name John Gottman. Do you know that name?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014a Jewish man, who\u2019s a writer and a student of marriage relationships, especially conflict. He put a name on that I had never heard before. He says the worst thing that can happen in a marriage is contempt. He calls them the \u201cFour Horsemen.\u201d One of them is criticism; we criticize our spouse. He says contempt is when you criticize your spouse with a sense of arrogance, \u201cI\u2019m better than you. Why are you such a \u2014?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had contempt, and she saw it and would point it out. I couldn\u2019t see it, and I was shocked when I saw it. It was ugly, and it was hurtful.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If I [hadn\u2019t] had a wife to be able to sharpen me and speak truth in love, and she did\u2014sometimes not in love, but she spoke truth. [Laughter] Many times with grace and love; but if I hadn\u2019t seen that, I don\u2019t think we\u2019d be sitting here today.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s one of the beauties of marriage, too, because God gives you a partner who is going to help sharpen you to become like Christ, which is our ultimate goal. That\u2019s the beauty of marriage, but it\u2019s also the agony, because it\u2019s hard, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u201cThe wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy.\u201d You want your wife to be kissing you all the time, but also your wife needs to be able to point out your sin, and point out, \u201cHey, you know what? I think this is an area you can grow in Christ,\u201d and she can do it in truth and love, but it\u2019s a real blessing; it\u2019s a real help.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let\u2019s talk about this a little bit, because you guys talk about it in your book, in your Letters. You talk about the importance of going to church as a couple. Why is it so important, do you think, that young and old married couples are in the church?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The church is where all the action is. If I had everybody remember a phrase, it would be that one: the church is where all the action is in God\u2019s plan. God is saving a people from every tribe and tongue and nation, and He\u2019s including them in His people, the Church, which is His family. What\u2019s really striking is that almost every piece of marriage advice in the Bible is written in a letter in the context of a church, right?<\/p>\n<p>Paul writes about marriage in Ephesians five, the passage that\u2019s always read at every wedding. Who is he writing? To a bunch of Christians in a church. I Corinthians 13: it\u2019s written to a bunch of Christians in a church. The Bible\u2019s advice assumes the church for romance. It assumes it throughout, because that\u2019s where all the advice comes.<\/p>\n<p>Here are a couple of things: if I\u2019m talking to a couple and they ask, \u201cAlright, tell me why I need to go to church in my marriage? Do we really need to prioritize this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWe can just watch it on TV.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes. \u201cDo we really need to do this? It\u2019s a lot. It\u2019s our one day to sleep in. What do we do?\u201d I want to say to somebody, \u201cOkay, first of all, do you want your marriage to grow in a way that honors God?\u201d Most Christians are going to say, \u201cAbsolutely.\u201d I\u2019m going to say, \u201cOkay, listen. At church is the place where you are going to be hearing the Bible preached regularly, and your relationship needs to be built on the truth of God\u2019s Word.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThe Bible says that the church is the pillar and buttress of truth. It holds it up in the culture, and it holds it up for us to see in our relationships. The second thing is that the church is going to be the place where you\u2019re going to be in relationships with other Christians who [Ephesians 4:15] are going to speak the truth in love into your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In our dating, engagement, and marriage, the most crucial parts and moments of our dating, engagement, and marriage were punctuated with couples from our local church speaking into our life. When we were deciding to date, there were older couples who loved God who were speaking into that and giving us counsel. When we were about to get married, there were Ward and Heather, who were speaking into our life, helping us think through conflict, and they were a part of our church.<\/p>\n<p>They were seeing us on Sunday, and they were seeing us on Tuesday, and they were there when the conflicts were happening. They were seeing all the ugly stuff that was coming out. They were there, and they were applying God\u2019s truth to our life. And now we\u2019re married, and look, we\u2019ve written books on dating, engagement, and marriage. I would say, at least once a year, Taylor and I are trying to figure something out in our marriage, or we\u2019re in a conflict in our marriage, and we [realize], \u201cWe can\u2019t figure this out. We need help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We call an older, godly couple, and we say, \u201cHey, we need to talk.\u201d They say, \u201cOkay, you need to talk. Let\u2019s set something up.\u201d \u201cNo, we need to talk tonight about this!\u201d [Laughter] \u201cSeriously.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cWe\u2019re in your driveway.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cWe\u2019re coming over right now to talk about this. This is urgent. We have to get on the same page.\u201d I\u2019m just saying that is the gift of the Body of Christ. The real question is not, \u201cWhy should we go to church?\u201d It\u2019s \u201cWhy would you not?\u201d When we know what God\u2019s design is, why would we want to prioritize anything else in our life over this incredible gift that God has given us? It\u2019s not perfect. It will hurt you sometimes, but it will also build into your marriage for a lifetime.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: A screen doesn\u2019t know you. A screen is just a screen, but people in the church, to what Spencer is saying, they know you. They can speak and say, \u201cOh, yes. You do have a blind spot. Oh, yes. You have a booger in your nose.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cOh, yes. You have something on your face. Let\u2019s get that off. Let me help you out.\u201d And you say, \u201cOh, wow, I do! Thank you. I needed that.\u201d It\u2019s a real gift the screen just can\u2019t give.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We need to build into our lives places for our marriage where we can\u2019t hide. If we hide, we will not thrive, and we will not glorify God in the way He wants us to. We were built for the Body of Christ. One of the things I would say to a couple if you\u2019re thinking about this right now is, if you\u2019re a believer, God has made the church to be a blessing in your life.<\/p>\n<p>But then He\u2019s made you to be a blessing in the life of other couples. You do not know the people who you are meant to be ministering to right now, that are not being ministered to. You don\u2019t know how God\u2019s going to use your story. You don\u2019t know how God\u2019s going to use where you are right now, in five years, to bless somebody who\u2019s going to be where you are. Avail yourself of that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys are talking about more than just attending a church for that hour and then leaving, and then not having anything to do with anybody; a small group. You\u2019re saying this is your local body of believers that you\u2019re invested in, that you\u2019re spending time in, that you\u2019re serving and loving. You guys are both in a church. You\u2019re pastors.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, this is your soapbox.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: This is it, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, this is it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We speak\u2014we have for almost 40 years now\u2014at marriage conferences around the country. We do our own Vertical Marriage weekend, and we do the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae. You guys know this. From the beginning to the end, we\u2019re always saying, \u201cThis conference won\u2019t change your marriage. What you do after will.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWe\u2019re going to give you great, biblical\u2014God\u2019s Word\u2014but if you don\u2019t do anything after, you\u2019re not going to be any better in six months. You may be better for a couple weeks, but six months later you\u2019ll [say], \u2018That didn\u2019t work.\u2019\u201d I\u2019ll never forget. I was speaking to athletes in Iowa. This was decades ago, and I\u2019m walking through this hotel lobby with this 6\u20196\u201d Iowa college basketball player, and this woman is sitting in the lobby.<\/p>\n<p>She yells, \u201cHey, you!\u201d We both look. I don\u2019t know this lady; he doesn\u2019t know this lady, Just sort of to be nice we ask, \u201cAre you talking to one of us?\u201d She said, \u201cYeah, the bald guy.\u201d W walk over, both of us, and I say, \u201cDo I know you?\u201d She said, \u201cI went to a marriage conference three years ago in Des Moines. Did you speak? It was FamilyLife.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cYes, I spoke there, and Ann wasn\u2019t with me. I was with another couple, and I was the single male guy there.\u201d Anyway, long story short, I said to her, \u201cHow was the conference?\u201d She said, \u201cLife-changing, amazing, best thing we ever did for our marriage.\u201d Then she got this look of despair, and I said, \u201cWell, how are you doing now?\u201d She said, \u201cWe didn\u2019t make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I said, \u201cWhat do you mean you didn\u2019t make it?\u201d She said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re not divorced, but we\u2019re separated, and we\u2019re not doing well.\u201d I said, \u201cHuh. Can I ask you a question?\u201d I will never forget this moment. She said, \u201cSure, what?\u201d I asked, \u201cYou know when we talked at the weekend, do you remember us saying, \u2018Get plugged into a local church,\u2019 and \u2018There are some resources you need to get connected with other couples?\u2019 Can I just ask you an honest question? Did you do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She said, \u201cNo, we did nothing after that conference.\u201d I said, \u201cCan I pray for you?\u201d I walked away, and I remember saying to that dude, \u201cDude, listen to what happened there. It was a great weekend. It did nothing, because the local church is where this is\u201d\u2014what did you say?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The local church is where all the action is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s where the action is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that, because it sounds like you don\u2019t want to miss it.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re at the end of another day. I would just say listening to a podcast is not going to change your marriage either.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s so true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s helpful. It\u2019s why we do it; but if you don\u2019t do what these guys are saying right here\u2014and we\u2019re not saying it because we\u2019re pastors and in ministry. We\u2019re saying it because that\u2019s the way God made the Body of Christ. You can watch it on a screen, you can sing a song in your living room by yourself. It\u2019s nothing like standing beside flesh and blood people you don\u2019t even like beside you, singing a song and then getting connected in a small group with other couples who are ahead of you.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m guessing you guys are now pouring into other couples behind you? That\u2019s the beauty of the church.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m just going to remind you, if you don\u2019t do that, I can promise you one thing: nothing is going to change in your life. And if you do that, I can promise you something else: God will show up and do something in your life. Listen to what these guys are saying.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And let me add, Dave, too: it will change the lives of your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Get into a church that they\u2019re preaching the gospel, that they\u2019re studying the Word, and that you\u2019re connecting with other couples. It\u2019s life changing, and it\u2019s what Jesus intended.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: You know, community is always a part of what it means to live the Christian life. Christianity was never meant to be a solo thing. So, if you haven\u2019t already, find a church, get with your people, and lean in. It\u2019ll be messy, but it will also be amazing. I\u2019ve experienced nothing but messiness and amazingness in my church experience, and I love it. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Sean and Spencer have written a collection of books. They\u2019re called Letters to a Romantic. They\u2019ve written it to specific areas of life, so Letters to a Romantic: On Dating, On Engagement, and then, for the First Years of Marriage. You might be thinking, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not me. I\u2019m not dating or engaged, or I am not experiencing the first years of marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, there are more than likely people in your life or in your church or in your family that are going through that right now, so these three books could be a fantastic gift to give away to someone who\u2019s going through that right now. This book bundle is going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d Also, if you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you be willing to share this program from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you\u2019re there, you can really help others learn about FamilyLife Today by leaving us a review.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be back again with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon. They\u2019re going to talk about how modesty and beauty are not contradictory to one another. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. 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to do relationships differently? Authors Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon point you in the right direction for dating, engagement, or marriage with purpose and depth. I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Check out more from Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon at <a href=\"https:\/\/unspokenblog.com\/\">unspokenblog.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/unspokenblog.com\/2017\/06\/19\/sharing-your-sexual-history\/\">Learn how to share of your sexual history<\/a> with a new romantic interest.<br \/>\nLearn more about Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon's church First Baptist Jacksonville<a href=\"https:\/\/fbcjax.com\/category\/first-thoughts\/\"> ..and discover their writings<\/a><br \/>\nIf you're interested in hearing more from Sean and Spencer, listen to their <a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-677188395\">Unspoken Blogs podcast<\/a><br \/>\nPurchase Sean and Spencer's books: <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-on-dating\/\">Letters to a Romantic: On Dating<\/a>,<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-on-engagement\/\">Letters to a Romantic: On Engagement,<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/letters-to-a-romantic-first-years-of-marriage\/\">Letters to a Romantic: First Years of Marriage<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-09-27.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Dating or Engaged \u2013 with Purpose<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Relationships Done Right (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 27, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. [Laughter] I remember one time I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to help make the spaghetti.\u201d This is in the first three months of marriage. I\u2019m in there stirring the spaghetti, thinking \u201cLook at me. I\u2019m such a great husband!\u201d Then my wife comes in after me. This still happens today. She looked up, and there was spaghetti sauce on the ceiling.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Noooo!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: She said, \u201cYou\u2019re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We have Spencer Harmon and Sean Perron back in the studio with us. You guys have written this really interesting trilogy, I guess you\u2019d call it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re like The Lord of the Rings, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There we go.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right. He\u2019s definitely Gandolf.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Just like Lord of the Rings.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He\u2019s Gandolf? [Laughter] We talked about it yesterday, Letters to a Romantic. I love that title. By the way, okay, I have both of you here. Who came up with the title?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I think it was you.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think it was me also. Yes, I\u2019ll take credit for that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Look at that, Sean!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Way to defer!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you missed yesterday, both these guys are married; four kids and almost three?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And now we know what the third one is.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019ve been married nine and eleven years.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So Letters to a Romantic: On Dating, On Engagement, and On Marriage. You know, we could separate all three. We talked a lot yesterday about dating, and that\u2019s why Ann\u2019s story of our own sons\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Today, let\u2019s talk about engagement, maybe marriage. We\u2019ll see where it goes. But as you think about dating\u2014we didn\u2019t even bring this up yesterday: what\u2019s the goal? For a Christian that wants to honor God in dating, is it even biblical? What\u2019s the goal?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The way I define it in our book is dating is \u201cexploring with purpose whether or not you should get married\u201d with somebody. Here\u2019s what I mean by that. There\u2019s an exploration dynamic in dating, right? You don\u2019t go on your first date with a girl and say, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s my 15 questions to figure out if you\u2019re going to be my wife.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, please don\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s a great way to not get a second date.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: But there\u2019s an exploratory element of this. \u201cHey, we\u2019re getting to know each other. Can we laugh together? What do you believe about life? What are your friends like? We\u2019re just spending time together and having fun together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhere are you spiritually?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cWhere are you spiritually? I want to know what your walk with the Lord is. Where do you go to church?\u201d All of those things. There\u2019s an exploratory element that requires some freedom, but it\u2019s always governed by purpose, right? We don\u2019t date just for the thrill of knowing, \u201cThere\u2019s a pretty person that likes me,\u201d right? That\u2019s selfish, and that\u2019s not loving your neighbor as you love yourself.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a purpose that\u2019s always governing what we\u2019re doing in our exploration, and that purpose is marriage. \u201cCan I marry this person?\u201d And when we think about marriage, we\u2019re thinking about it biblically. \u201cAre you someone who is trusting in Jesus Christ? What role and how much authority does God\u2019s Word have in your life? What\u2019s your vision for your life? What do you want to do? Where does the local church play into your life?\u201d All of those things are governing the way that you explore things.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And some people are listening and thinking, \u201cI just wanted to have fun! What was all that?\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you\u2019re saying there should be a purpose behind it, because marriage is pretty important.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes, that\u2019s right, and ultimately we can\u2019t be selfish, right? Many of us are so worldly in how we think about dating. We think, \u201cThe point of dating is for me to have the maximum amount of fun and pleasure as possible.\u201d That\u2019s incredibly selfish to say! What if the point of marriage were to love and serve this person, and explore whether or not you could get married for the glory of God?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes. \u201cWhatever you do, whether you eat, drink, or go on a date, or if you eat and drink on a date, do it all to the glory of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that true pleasure? Is that your definition?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It is. \u201cGlorify God and enjoy Him forever.\u201d I think when you do that, when you lose yourself and you have pleasures at the right hand of God, Psalm 16 talks about [being] filled with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. The happiest being that exists is God. God is happier than anyone has ever thought about.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHeaven is a world of joy. Heaven is a world of love,\u201d Jonathan Edwards says, so we will spend an eternity getting to know this happy God. Because happiness originated with God, it was His idea, then we are happiest when we are loving Him, when we\u2019re enjoying Him, when we\u2019re knowing Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the things you mentioned\u2014again, as you talk, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cYou did kiss dating goodbye?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cOr you didn\u2019t?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes and no.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You guys sort of grew up\u2014you\u2019re a little young, but that was right as you were probably little boys coming in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, no, that was big. It was big.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you kissed it goodbye, or you kissed it hello?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I think it\u2019s a mistake to understand dating as a whole category as sinful.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: But it all depends on what you do with it. The purpose of dating is to pursue marriage, so if you\u2019re dating selfishly, if you\u2019re dating aimlessly, then you\u2019re going to wind up in a cul-de-sac of brokenness and pain and heartache that you can\u2019t get out of. But if you use dating to glorify God, I think that\u2019s possible, so that\u2019s why I say \u201cYes and no.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>We didn\u2019t jettison the entire concept, but we are seeking to be purposeful and intentional and biblical on how we go about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys have done this right. As I look at you, I should say you\u2019ve done it biblically.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Your dating experience, your wedding experience\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Engagement.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Then you get married. You\u2019ve been married a while; you have kids. Is there anything you wish you would have known going into these first, even, five to ten years? \u201cOooh, I wish somebody would have said this to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: In the marriage book, I wrote the first chapter, and I remember sitting down, thinking, \u201cHow do we start this thing? How do we\u2014?\u201d I wrote this sentence, and that\u2019s the first thing that popped into my mind when you asked this question: \u201cMarriage is an experiment in exposure.\u201d Let me explain what I mean by that. I did not understand how much marriage was going to expose me, like in my heart, right?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Good and bad.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: You walk into marriage and you know\u2014we did premarital counseling so we know in theory: \u201cHey, you\u2019re going to go into marriage and listen. You\u2019re going to see your own sin.\u201d But then you get into marriage, and you get this 3-D picture of your sin, and it\u2019s everywhere you look, because you\u2019re living life with another person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, that\u2019s good. At least you saw your own sin. I\u2019m like, \u201cLook at his sin!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: I think that it is my pride, though, that actually motivates that answer, because I think you go into marriage thinking8 \u201cWell, I think I know the ways that they need to grow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: But then you realize, \u201cWait a second. I\u2019m the common denominator in all our problems.\u201d [Laughter] That was a shocker. That was something that I had to really wrestle with.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m an internal processor, so there are no loud explosions of anger with me. All of this stuff happens inside of me, and I\u2019m wrestling with the Lord. \u201cI am not as far along as I thought I was before we said, \u2018I do.\u2019\u201d It was a humbling experience for me, and actually motivated a lot of what we wrote.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, I bet.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cOkay, we have to do this all over again. We have to figure out how we apply the gospel of Christ to all these different areas, all these different firsts of marriage. How do we apply it here?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Was there one that jumps out? Because when I think of me, and this is 42 years ago, I was shocked at how selfish I was, and I was even more shocked at how much more selfish she was than I was. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was shocked at how selfish you were, too! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I knew I was selfish. Like you said, then it was 3D. Do you have something like that? \u201cI just didn\u2019t realize I was this bad?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And mine was pride. I didn\u2019t realize how prideful I was.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: This is going to sound really funny, but I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. [Laughter] I remember one time I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to help make the spaghetti.\u201d This is in the first three months of marriage. I\u2019m in there stirring the spaghetti pan, thinking, \u201cLook at me. I\u2019m such a great husband!\u201d Then my wife comes in after me. This still happens today.<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s looking around, like \u201cI don\u2019t know how it\u2019s humanly possible for you to make such a mess.\u201d She looked up, and there was spaghetti sauce on the ceiling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Noooo!<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: She said, \u201cHow is there spaghetti sauce\u2014how did you even--you\u2019re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?\u201d She was very, very gracious with me. The other thing, I think, was I did not realize that there was a lot of fear of man and people pleasing in my heart, because when you\u2019re a man and you get married, God is calling you to lead, and to be courageous, and to have a vision, and to set direction, and to lead your family according to God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>I realized there\u2019s still just a lot of fear there. There\u2019s a lot of timidity that I had to overcome and say, \u201cOkay, this precious woman that God has given me is counting on me to lead us spiritually.\u201d And then we had kids right away. We got pregnant three months into marriage. It was like, \u201cOkay, now there are these sweet little people that are looking at me for leadership, too, and I need to lead this family spiritually.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There was fear that I had to overcome and grow in courage in the Lord in doing that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s real.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I realized that I was on a different time schedule than Jenny. By saying that, that\u2019s part of my sin. I realized that my time, the way it needed to work, was the correct way; and the way that she wanted it to work was not aligned with mine. That\u2019s a small thing, but it\u2019s the small things that add up. And if you don\u2019t keep short accounts with one another, if you\u2019re not continually seeking to confess, \u201cOh, I blew it just then;\u201d \u201cI was trying to rush you out the door;\u201d \u201cI was delaying, dragging my feet, because I didn\u2019t think we needed to be there on time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If I don\u2019t confess that right away and say, \u201cWould you please forgive me? That was arrogant. I shouldn\u2019t have said that. That was sinful. I was harsh. I was rough. I wasn\u2019t gentle.\u201d When you keep short accounts, it serves your whole family. It serves the Lord, it serves the church, it serves the people you\u2019re around because people know, \u201cOh, they\u2019re not harboring bitterness. They\u2019re not keeping wrongs. They\u2019re real. They\u2019re trying to confess their sin. They\u2019re trying to repent,\u201d and that\u2019s what the Lord wants\u2014for us to honor Him. So, the small things do add up.<\/p>\n<p>I thought of one in engagement, though. This is a bit of a curve ball. You asked what you wished you knew in advance. I did not anticipate the onslaught of bad advice I would receive. I was struck over and over again with people\u2019s opinions. There are so many opinions. Everyone has an opinion about everything, which is why we wrote a book.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Which is exactly why!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, we have opinions, too! [Laughter] I had people come up and say, \u201cYou know what? You guys seem happy now, but just wait until the day after you\u2019re married!\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, what happens the day after you get married?\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cWell, that was really weird, Jenny. These people\u2014something bad must happen the second day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then I had people say, \u201cOh, you know what? You\u2019re going to do great the first six months of marriage; just wait \u2018til year one. In year one, that\u2019s when all of the hordes of Satan come and visit your home.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat is wrong with everyone? Everyone is doom and gloom, prophesying the world\u2019s going to end at some determined point in the relationship, in marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I thought, \u201cYou know what? I need to figure this out! Is that true? Is that what they\u2019re saying? Is there really something that happens at year five, or something that happens at year whatever, that makes this really bad?\u201d The answer is no; the answer is we\u2019re sinners, and that\u2019s going to happen at any time. But praise God for the gospel, that has mercy and grace to fill us up so that we can change. We don\u2019t have to be stuck in our sinful preferences or sinful idiosyncrasies. We can really grow and change over time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Mmm, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I was thinking I had no idea\u2014and I didn\u2019t really deal with it for more than five years\u2014how harsh my words were. She told me, but I didn\u2019t believe it. I didn\u2019t see it, and it\u2019s a long story. I had a videotape catch me on tape, and I saw it for the first time. A few years ago\u2014maybe you know the name John Gottman. Do you know that name?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014a Jewish man, who\u2019s a writer and a student of marriage relationships, especially conflict. He put a name on that I had never heard before. He says the worst thing that can happen in a marriage is contempt. He calls them the \u201cFour Horsemen.\u201d One of them is criticism; we criticize our spouse. He says contempt is when you criticize your spouse with a sense of arrogance, \u201cI\u2019m better than you. Why are you such a \u2014?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had contempt, and she saw it and would point it out. I couldn\u2019t see it, and I was shocked when I saw it. It was ugly, and it was hurtful.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If I [hadn\u2019t] had a wife to be able to sharpen me and speak truth in love, and she did\u2014sometimes not in love, but she spoke truth. [Laughter] Many times with grace and love; but if I hadn\u2019t seen that, I don\u2019t think we\u2019d be sitting here today.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s one of the beauties of marriage, too, because God gives you a partner who is going to help sharpen you to become like Christ, which is our ultimate goal. That\u2019s the beauty of marriage, but it\u2019s also the agony, because it\u2019s hard, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u201cThe wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy.\u201d You want your wife to be kissing you all the time, but also your wife needs to be able to point out your sin, and point out, \u201cHey, you know what? I think this is an area you can grow in Christ,\u201d and she can do it in truth and love, but it\u2019s a real blessing; it\u2019s a real help.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let\u2019s talk about this a little bit, because you guys talk about it in your book, in your Letters. You talk about the importance of going to church as a couple. Why is it so important, do you think, that young and old married couples are in the church?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The church is where all the action is. If I had everybody remember a phrase, it would be that one: the church is where all the action is in God\u2019s plan. God is saving a people from every tribe and tongue and nation, and He\u2019s including them in His people, the Church, which is His family. What\u2019s really striking is that almost every piece of marriage advice in the Bible is written in a letter in the context of a church, right?<\/p>\n<p>Paul writes about marriage in Ephesians five, the passage that\u2019s always read at every wedding. Who is he writing? To a bunch of Christians in a church. I Corinthians 13: it\u2019s written to a bunch of Christians in a church. The Bible\u2019s advice assumes the church for romance. It assumes it throughout, because that\u2019s where all the advice comes.<\/p>\n<p>Here are a couple of things: if I\u2019m talking to a couple and they ask, \u201cAlright, tell me why I need to go to church in my marriage? Do we really need to prioritize this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWe can just watch it on TV.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes. \u201cDo we really need to do this? It\u2019s a lot. It\u2019s our one day to sleep in. What do we do?\u201d I want to say to somebody, \u201cOkay, first of all, do you want your marriage to grow in a way that honors God?\u201d Most Christians are going to say, \u201cAbsolutely.\u201d I\u2019m going to say, \u201cOkay, listen. At church is the place where you are going to be hearing the Bible preached regularly, and your relationship needs to be built on the truth of God\u2019s Word.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThe Bible says that the church is the pillar and buttress of truth. It holds it up in the culture, and it holds it up for us to see in our relationships. The second thing is that the church is going to be the place where you\u2019re going to be in relationships with other Christians who [Ephesians 4:15] are going to speak the truth in love into your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In our dating, engagement, and marriage, the most crucial parts and moments of our dating, engagement, and marriage were punctuated with couples from our local church speaking into our life. When we were deciding to date, there were older couples who loved God who were speaking into that and giving us counsel. When we were about to get married, there were Ward and Heather, who were speaking into our life, helping us think through conflict, and they were a part of our church.<\/p>\n<p>They were seeing us on Sunday, and they were seeing us on Tuesday, and they were there when the conflicts were happening. They were seeing all the ugly stuff that was coming out. They were there, and they were applying God\u2019s truth to our life. And now we\u2019re married, and look, we\u2019ve written books on dating, engagement, and marriage. I would say, at least once a year, Taylor and I are trying to figure something out in our marriage, or we\u2019re in a conflict in our marriage, and we [realize], \u201cWe can\u2019t figure this out. We need help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We call an older, godly couple, and we say, \u201cHey, we need to talk.\u201d They say, \u201cOkay, you need to talk. Let\u2019s set something up.\u201d \u201cNo, we need to talk tonight about this!\u201d [Laughter] \u201cSeriously.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cWe\u2019re in your driveway.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: \u201cWe\u2019re coming over right now to talk about this. This is urgent. We have to get on the same page.\u201d I\u2019m just saying that is the gift of the Body of Christ. The real question is not, \u201cWhy should we go to church?\u201d It\u2019s \u201cWhy would you not?\u201d When we know what God\u2019s design is, why would we want to prioritize anything else in our life over this incredible gift that God has given us? It\u2019s not perfect. It will hurt you sometimes, but it will also build into your marriage for a lifetime.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: A screen doesn\u2019t know you. A screen is just a screen, but people in the church, to what Spencer is saying, they know you. They can speak and say, \u201cOh, yes. You do have a blind spot. Oh, yes. You have a booger in your nose.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cOh, yes. You have something on your face. Let\u2019s get that off. Let me help you out.\u201d And you say, \u201cOh, wow, I do! Thank you. I needed that.\u201d It\u2019s a real gift the screen just can\u2019t give.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: We need to build into our lives places for our marriage where we can\u2019t hide. If we hide, we will not thrive, and we will not glorify God in the way He wants us to. We were built for the Body of Christ. One of the things I would say to a couple if you\u2019re thinking about this right now is, if you\u2019re a believer, God has made the church to be a blessing in your life.<\/p>\n<p>But then He\u2019s made you to be a blessing in the life of other couples. You do not know the people who you are meant to be ministering to right now, that are not being ministered to. You don\u2019t know how God\u2019s going to use your story. You don\u2019t know how God\u2019s going to use where you are right now, in five years, to bless somebody who\u2019s going to be where you are. Avail yourself of that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys are talking about more than just attending a church for that hour and then leaving, and then not having anything to do with anybody; a small group. You\u2019re saying this is your local body of believers that you\u2019re invested in, that you\u2019re spending time in, that you\u2019re serving and loving. You guys are both in a church. You\u2019re pastors.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, this is your soapbox.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: This is it, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, this is it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We speak\u2014we have for almost 40 years now\u2014at marriage conferences around the country. We do our own Vertical Marriage weekend, and we do the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae. You guys know this. From the beginning to the end, we\u2019re always saying, \u201cThis conference won\u2019t change your marriage. What you do after will.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWe\u2019re going to give you great, biblical\u2014God\u2019s Word\u2014but if you don\u2019t do anything after, you\u2019re not going to be any better in six months. You may be better for a couple weeks, but six months later you\u2019ll [say], \u2018That didn\u2019t work.\u2019\u201d I\u2019ll never forget. I was speaking to athletes in Iowa. This was decades ago, and I\u2019m walking through this hotel lobby with this 6\u20196\u201d Iowa college basketball player, and this woman is sitting in the lobby.<\/p>\n<p>She yells, \u201cHey, you!\u201d We both look. I don\u2019t know this lady; he doesn\u2019t know this lady, Just sort of to be nice we ask, \u201cAre you talking to one of us?\u201d She said, \u201cYeah, the bald guy.\u201d W walk over, both of us, and I say, \u201cDo I know you?\u201d She said, \u201cI went to a marriage conference three years ago in Des Moines. Did you speak? It was FamilyLife.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cYes, I spoke there, and Ann wasn\u2019t with me. I was with another couple, and I was the single male guy there.\u201d Anyway, long story short, I said to her, \u201cHow was the conference?\u201d She said, \u201cLife-changing, amazing, best thing we ever did for our marriage.\u201d Then she got this look of despair, and I said, \u201cWell, how are you doing now?\u201d She said, \u201cWe didn\u2019t make it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I said, \u201cWhat do you mean you didn\u2019t make it?\u201d She said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re not divorced, but we\u2019re separated, and we\u2019re not doing well.\u201d I said, \u201cHuh. Can I ask you a question?\u201d I will never forget this moment. She said, \u201cSure, what?\u201d I asked, \u201cYou know when we talked at the weekend, do you remember us saying, \u2018Get plugged into a local church,\u2019 and \u2018There are some resources you need to get connected with other couples?\u2019 Can I just ask you an honest question? Did you do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She said, \u201cNo, we did nothing after that conference.\u201d I said, \u201cCan I pray for you?\u201d I walked away, and I remember saying to that dude, \u201cDude, listen to what happened there. It was a great weekend. It did nothing, because the local church is where this is\u201d\u2014what did you say?<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: The local church is where all the action is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s where the action is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that, because it sounds like you don\u2019t want to miss it.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re at the end of another day. I would just say listening to a podcast is not going to change your marriage either.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That\u2019s so true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s helpful. It\u2019s why we do it; but if you don\u2019t do what these guys are saying right here\u2014and we\u2019re not saying it because we\u2019re pastors and in ministry. We\u2019re saying it because that\u2019s the way God made the Body of Christ. You can watch it on a screen, you can sing a song in your living room by yourself. It\u2019s nothing like standing beside flesh and blood people you don\u2019t even like beside you, singing a song and then getting connected in a small group with other couples who are ahead of you.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m guessing you guys are now pouring into other couples behind you? That\u2019s the beauty of the church.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m just going to remind you, if you don\u2019t do that, I can promise you one thing: nothing is going to change in your life. And if you do that, I can promise you something else: God will show up and do something in your life. Listen to what these guys are saying.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And let me add, Dave, too: it will change the lives of your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Get into a church that they\u2019re preaching the gospel, that they\u2019re studying the Word, and that you\u2019re connecting with other couples. It\u2019s life changing, and it\u2019s what Jesus intended.<\/p>\n<p>Spencer: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: You know, community is always a part of what it means to live the Christian life. Christianity was never meant to be a solo thing. So, if you haven\u2019t already, find a church, get with your people, and lean in. It\u2019ll be messy, but it will also be amazing. I\u2019ve experienced nothing but messiness and amazingness in my church experience, and I love it. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Sean and Spencer have written a collection of books. They\u2019re called Letters to a Romantic. They\u2019ve written it to specific areas of life, so Letters to a Romantic: On Dating, On Engagement, and then, for the First Years of Marriage. You might be thinking, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not me. I\u2019m not dating or engaged, or I am not experiencing the first years of marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, there are more than likely people in your life or in your church or in your family that are going through that right now, so these three books could be a fantastic gift to give away to someone who\u2019s going through that right now. This book bundle is going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d Also, if you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you be willing to share this program from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you\u2019re there, you can really help others learn about FamilyLife Today by leaving us a review.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be back again with Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon. They\u2019re going to talk about how modesty and beauty are not contradictory to one another. That\u2019s coming up tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280431","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280431"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280431"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280431"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280431"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280431"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280431"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280431"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}