{"id":280422,"date":"2023-10-10T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-10-10T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey\/"},"modified":"2025-05-06T15:13:04","modified_gmt":"2025-05-06T19:13:04","slug":"masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey\/","title":{"rendered":"Masculinity, Christianity\u2013and the (Surprising) Truth: Nancy Pearcey"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Author and professor Nancy Pearcey explores sociological data to uncover why it&#8217;s open season on masculinity\u2014and the surprising role of Christian men.<\/p>\n<p><strong fetchpriority=\"high\"><em>It turns out the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize. Most of us probably think about the \u201860s or something, with the feminist movement, second wave. No, no, no; you have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution. &#8212; Nancy Pearcey<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author and professor Nancy Pearcey explores sociological data to uncover why it&#8217;s open season on masculinity\u2014and the surprising role of Christian men. It turns out the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize&#8230;.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c7391a12-7dcf-4a28-ac61-b154011d957e\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:03","filesize":"26.62M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-10-10 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2234],"podcast_series":[8685],"cwp_profile":[8846],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280422","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-christian-masculinity","podcast_series-the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-nancy-pearcey","cwp_profile-nancy-pearcey","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280422\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280422\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"L4L7W0KD8k\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey\/\">Masculinity, Christianity\u2013and the (Surprising) Truth: Nancy Pearcey<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/masculinity-christianity-and-the-surprising-truth-nancy-pearcey\/embed\/#?secret=L4L7W0KD8k\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Masculinity, Christianity\u2013and the (Surprising) Truth: Nancy Pearcey&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"L4L7W0KD8k\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012766"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c7391a12-7dcf-4a28-ac61-b154011d957e\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:29:03"],"filesize":["26.62M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Connect with Nancy Pearcey on her website: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nancypearcey.com\/\">nancypearcey.com<\/a><br \/>\nand get a copy of Nancy's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-how-christianity-reconciles-the-sexes\/\">The Toxic War on Masculinity<\/a><br \/>\nGo to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/comingsoon\/\">familylife.com\/comingsoon<\/a> to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and to be notified of when pre-orders are live!<br \/>\nCheck out more episodes from <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/nancy-pearcey\/\">Nancy Pearcey<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of Brant's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/brant-hansen\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-10.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Masculinity, Christianity, and the (Surprising) Truth<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Nancy Pearcey<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Toxic War on Masculinity (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:October 10, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It turns out the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize. Most of us probably think about the \u201860s or something, with the feminist movement, second wave. No, no, no; you have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>When we first got married, you would often say, \u201cI never want to be like my dad, ever!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was a mission of my life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It was a mission, because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI will not become an alcoholic\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\"a womanizer\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\"womanizer, divorced, selfish, money idol.\u201d I mean, there were some good things about my dad; but he walked out when I was seven. I was on a quest: \u201cI will never become that man.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But when I was a junior in college, I looked in the mirror one day, and I thought, \u201cI am my dad.\u201d I wasn\u2019t a Christian yet, and I was scared. I was going to parties and drinking; I was the college quarterback, so I had women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And money was at the top.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh! I was like\u2014I picked my major\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was always thinking about money.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014based on: \u201cHow much money can I make?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, I come to Christ; and Jesus started transforming my life. I read the Bible, and I said, \u201cIf I don\u2019t do something, I\u2019m going to become my dad, even though I don\u2019t want to be. It\u2019s going to happen.\u201d One of my quests was: \u201cI\u2019ve got to find out what a godly man looks like, because I don\u2019t know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you know what? You have become that. Really, honestly, I look at you and think, \u201cYou\u2019re an amazing man of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, that\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we\u2019re going to talk about this. We have Nancy Pearcey back with us. Nancy, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Thank you. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019ve written a book called The Toxic War on Masculinity. We talked about it yesterday, and we ended our segment talking about this toxic masculinity and what\u2019s happening to the view of men in our culture. Is it just the United States, or is it happening worldwide?\u2014of this negative opinion of men.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, I think it\u2019s worldwide, just because whatever happens in the United States spreads. Yes, we ended the last program on the hostile rhetoric; because you asked me why I wrote the book. Part of it was because I was so blown away by how hostile the rhetoric is today\/how acceptable it is to say things negatively. There are books out now with titles like: I Hate Men, and No Good Men, and Are Men Necessary? You can get published with titles like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And even on TV, we see the man is the dummy. They\u2019re always dumbing him down, or he\u2019s the joke of the program. It never used to be like that. I don\u2019t know if it was healthy in the past; but now, we\u2019re at a whole different place.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And even men\u2014this was part of the surprise for me\u2014I looked at a news article where James Cameron, the Director of Avatar, said, \u201cTestosterone is a toxin,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014\"and you have to work it out of your system.\u201d There is a best-selling science-fiction writer, Hugh Howey, who said, \u201cTestosterone is the problem. Women should be in charge of everything.\u201d Another book author said, \u201cTalking about healthy masculinity is like talking about healthy cancer.\u201d I thought, \u201cThese are men! These are even male writers.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019re reading these things and getting a little riled up about it.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes; I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhere does this come from?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s my question:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cWhere does this come from?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Let me start where I start in the book. I wanted to start with the good news, because the bad news is pretty depressing. [Laughter] The good news is that evangelical men are doing very well. Christian men are, in fact, doing very well. Most Christians don\u2019t even know this. In fact, the reason they don\u2019t know it is because there\u2019s a lot of criticism of them as well. Let me give you a few quotes; it\u2019s very easy to find these online: \u201cConservative Protestant gender ideology can clearly lead to abuse, both physical and emotional.\u201d Another quote: \u201cIt\u2019s no secret that abuse is prevalent in conservative churches that embrace headship theory.\u201d Another quote: \u201cThe theology of male headship feeds the rape culture that we see permeating American Christianity today.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The problem with these accusations is that they ignore the data from the social sciences. The studies have found that evangelical family men\u2014meaning husbands and fathers\u2014who attend church regularly are the most loving husbands and the most engaged fathers. Compared to the average American family man, evangelical men are the most loving to their wives. And yes, they do interview the wives separately; that\u2019s important, because women wouldn\u2019t necessarily be honest [if interviewed with her husband].<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The women report the highest levels of being happy with the way their husbands treat them, with feeling loved and appreciated. They [evangelical fathers] are the most engaged with their children, both in shared activities, like sports and church youth group, and in discipline, like setting screen time or setting bedtime. They are the least likely to divorce of any group in America\u2014and here\u2019s the real stunner\u2014they have the lowest rates of domestic violence of any major group in America.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I tell people this; and everyone always sits back, kind of like, \u201cWhat?! How come we don\u2019t know this?\u201d The reason you don\u2019t know this is [because] it\u2019s all buried in academic literature. I had to read mostly academic sociological journals to pull this out.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it was there!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It was there! Sociologists have been doing these studies, partly because they wanted to find out, \u201cWhat is the data?\u201d They read these accusations, and they say, \u201cYes, but where\u2019s the evidence? Where\u2019s the evidence?\u201d So they go back, and they do the studies. They found that evangelical men actually are the most loving and engaged husbands and fathers of any group in America.<\/p>\n<p>The sociologists went back to the data then, and they divided out truly committed Christian men, who do attend church regularly. That\u2019s a fairly reliable correlate of whether they are truly committed Christians\u2014authentic Christians versus nominal\u2014that\u2019s the dividing line.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But they\u2019re [nominal Christians] not going to church, like you even said in the book, three times a month\u2014they\u2019re going less: maybe once; maybe not\u2014right?\u2014nominal.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Barely, if at all; right. It\u2019s mostly a family background; it\u2019s a cultural background.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The differences between these groups are absolutely devastating.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, am I right in what I read? You say that the difference is, if you\u2019re a practicing, evangelical man, all the [good] things you just said are true. If you\u2019re nominal, you\u2019re worse than a secular man.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I concluded.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This was shocking!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was scary.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It is. It was shocking when I first read it; yes. On all those numbers: first, their wives are the least happy with how their husbands treat them; they\u2019re the least engaged with their children in terms of shared activities and discipline. They have the highest level of divorce, higher than secular men; and they have the highest level of domestic violence of any group in America, higher than secular men. This is what the church is up against, then, because they are claiming to be Christian.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And I only found one study that gave the sizes. You and I probably hang out mostly with very committed Christian men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So we think, \u201cOh, those nominals: it\u2019s probably a small group\u201d, right? No; they\u2019re about the same size. That means if you meet somebody, who claims to be a Christian, or even an evangelical, there\u2019s about a 50 percent chance that it\u2019s actually a nominal Christian who tests out worse than secular men. This is really what young women need to know this when they\u2019re dating.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Seriously!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re saying\u2014a single girl, who\u2019s dating a guy\u2014she should say, \u201cHey, how many times did you go to church this month?\u201d [Laughter] He says, \u201cOnce\u201d; she should say, \u201cSee you later\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019d say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cYou\u2019re going to be worse to me than that guy over there, who says he doesn\u2019t believe in God.\u201d That is a little scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking they need to identify them by their fruit.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re looking for the fruit of the Spirit\u2014love, joy, peace, patience\u2026\u2014because they may be saying that they\u2019re a Christian; but by the fruit, it doesn\u2019t look like they are.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Some people ask me, \u201cWell, why are they worse than secular men?\u201d It seems to be\u2014and sociologists are number-crunchers, so they don\u2019t always tell you why\u2014but apparently they hang around the Christian world enough to get the language of headship and submission; and then they insert secular meaning of dominance, control, entitlement, and so on. They\u2019ve picked up the language that makes them feel more justified in those kinds of attitudes. They end up actually being worse than secular men.<\/p>\n<p>Actually, I wanted to read you this one quote\u2014my go-to sociologist here; the one who did the largest study\/his name is Brad Wilcox; he is at the University of Virginia\u2014he\u2019s considered one of the top marriage researchers in the nation. He says, \u201cIt turns out that the happiest wives in all of America\u201d\u2014by the way, they emphasize the wives; because the assumption is that, if there\u2019s any notion of headship\/of authority, then it\u2019s going to be oppressive to the woman\/abusive to the woman.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: They usually phrase it in terms of wives. \u201cIt turns out that the happiest wives, of all wives in America, are religious conservatives: fully 73 percent of wives, who hold conservative gender values and attend religious services regularly with their husband, have high-quality marriages.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019re saying this is hopeful. This is hopeful news!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It\u2019s very hopeful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s good news when you\u2019re talking and hearing about so much toxic masculinity. There\u2019s good news in the midst [of it].<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Isn\u2019t it?!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It\u2019s so encouraging: \u201cHow do we get men to behave better?\u201d Tell them where they\u2019re doing a good job! [Laughter] Tell them where they\u2019re doing great stuff!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so hopeful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When you are regularly practicing your faith, this is one of the results. That inspires people to say, \u201cI am going to get serious about my faith. That\u2019s good news!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly. Most of the numbers put these two groups together. I like your word, \u201cpracticing.\u201d If practicing evangelical men do better than secular men, but nominal Christian men do worse than secular men\u2014if you put these two groups together, which is what most surveys do\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014most surveys: \u201cOh, are you an evangelical? We\u2019ll put you in this box.\u201d Obviously, the numbers are going to be completely skewed!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that\u2019s where most of our statistics get it wrong, because they put these two groups together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. Well, let\u2019s talk about how the script turned to toxic\u2014this revolution of\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you really want to go toxic?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, I do!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m kidding; I\u2019m kidding. I love this good news; I just want to live here.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because I thought it was really interesting, how this played out over our history. And you [Nancy] laid that out, so take us back in time.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I really wanted to understand where this is coming from, because you can\u2019t really effectively counter something if you don\u2019t know where it\u2019s coming from and how it developed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It turns out, the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize. Most of us probably think about the \u201860s or something, with the feminist movement, second wave. No, no, no; you have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution. Prior to the Industrial Revolution\u2014the Colonial Age\u2014men and women worked side by side; husband and wife worked side by side\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014farming.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014on the family farm; the family industry; the family shop. The husband and wife have a partnership, day in and day out; plus, men are working with their children all day. They\u2019re the ones who were teaching them, training them, and teaching them adult skills. Men were expected\/fathers were expected to be just as involved with their children as mothers were. The social expectation of the time was much more that men were in the care-taking role. They were supposed to be, not only fathers of their families\u2014but a very common phrase back then was \u201cfathers of the community\u201d\u2014they were supposed to bring that care-taking role into their community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a very loving way.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly; exactly. One of my historians that I quote (not Christian) said, \u201cIn the Colonial Age, the masculine role was defined in terms of duty, duty to God and man.\u201d That\u2019s how he put it. The concept of authority was very clear; this was in the literature of the time. It means you\u2019re responsible for the common good. I look out for my good; you look out for what\u2019s good for you; but who looks out for the common good of our marriage\/of our family? That\u2019s what authority was for\u2014to look out for the common good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When I read that, I was like, \u201cMan, that man is so different than the man today.\u201d Even the fact that cooking books were written for men; they were very comfortable in the kitchen. Again, I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s not true today; but it was like that was what a man\u2019s role was in the home. He was a nurturer of his family\/of his kids. And we live in a culture now that\u2019s: \u201cThat\u2019s a woman\u2019s job, not a man\u2019s job.\u201d And that was never true!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I love reading some of these historians. That was one of the quotes in the book: \u201cMen were as comfortable in the kitchen as women were,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014 was a direct quote from one of the historians.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The Colonial Era\u2014and of course, it was mostly Christian back then\u2014the view of marriage and the view of masculinity in the Colonial Era was extremely positive. It gives us a baseline that we can compare to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then came\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014the Industrial\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014the Industrial Revolution.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Work is taken out of the home. That seems like a fairly simple thing; but what happens, of course, men had to follow their work out of the home into factories and offices. For the first time, they\u2019re not working with people whom they love and have a moral bond with. They\u2019re working as an individual man in competition with other men. That\u2019s where you see the script start to change. It was protested at first, by the way. People protested that: \u201cOur men are changing!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: In the industrial workplace, it seemed like men had to be much more self-assertive\/aggressive\u2014look out for number-one; egocentric; make it financially\u2014the language at the time was: \u201cOur men are losing the Christian ethos that they used to have.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Oh, and it\u2019s more secular\u2014that was part of it, too\u2014as the public square becomes large with factories, and offices, and banks, academia, and so on. You know, these large public institutions grow up; people began to say, \u201cWell, they should be run by scientific principles\u201d; by which they meant value-free. \u201cDon\u2019t bring your personal values into the public square; keep those at home.\u201d So men were being socialized into a secular worldview through their education and the workplace much sooner than women were.<\/p>\n<p>But if values don\u2019t belong in the public square, people still wanted to maintain values like love, and altruism, and self-sacrifice, and religious devotion, and so on; so who\u2019s going to be in charge of them? Well, if they\u2019re at home, women are in charge of them. For the first time ever in human history, women started being held up as morally superior to men. All the way back to the Ancient Greeks, the insight between right and wrong was seen as a rational insight, and men were thought to be more rational; therefore, men [were] more moral: \u201cMen are morally stronger than women.\u201d In fact, the word \u201cvirtue\u201d\u2014v-i-r is Latin for \u201cman.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Virtue had overtones of masculine strength and honor. Men were thought to be more virtuous. In the nineteenth century, for the first time ever, you see culture shifting and saying women are more virtuous; women are spiritually stronger, more morally [upright], you know? Men are out in that rough and tumble, amoral, secular realm of the marketplace in commerce and politics; and at night, they come home to be reformed and refined by their morally superior wives. That\u2019s where you get the double standard; this is when it began.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking about attendance in a church. I don\u2019t know if this is true\u2014I would have to research it\u2014but most churches I go into, generally speaking, have more women than men. I\u2019m wondering\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014still true, statistically.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying, but I\u2019m wondering: back before the Industrial Age, if you had gone into a church, would it have been more even?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Different historians have different opinions on this, so I couldn\u2019t quite get a clear count. Today, the average church has 60 percent women, 40 percent men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s David Murrow\u2019s statistic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But in the early church, too\u2014there\u2019s a historian; he\u2019s a sociologist, but he studies the history of religion; his name is Rodney Stark\u2014he says [that], from the beginning, women were more drawn to the Christian church because they were given such higher status in the church than they were in the surrounding Roman culture. Women had very low status in the culture. When they went into the Christian church, they had much higher status and much more honor. He says, all the way from the beginning, we see evidence that there were more women than men because women were so much more honored and respected in the Chrisitan church.<\/p>\n<p>I forget\u2014it was one of the church fathers, who complains, \u201cWe have so many Christian maidens\u201d\u2014that\u2019s his ancient word\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014\u201cWe have so many Christian maidens; we\u2019re having trouble finding husbands for all of them.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And that\u2019s why 1 Peter talks about: \u201cWhat do you do if your husband\u2019s not a Christian?\u201d That was so common.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It appears that Christianity, to some degree, has always attracted more women than men; but it did grow worse in America, especially after the First and Second Great Awakenings. The Great Awakenings, in many ways, are what framed\/gave us evangelicalism.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And they did a great deal of good work. A lot of people came to Christianity or were restored to their faith through the Great Awakenings, but the problem with them was they had some negative baggage. They tended to focus on an intense emotional conversion experience. And who were thought to be more emotional?\u2014women!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014women.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that did seem to put religion into the sphere of women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: If you look at engravings made at the time of some of the revivals, they almost always show more women than men. The women would often be in the center, swooning and falling over, and having these great emotional experiences.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, evangelicalism has had a greater problem, even than historic Christianity, in terms of attracting more women.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, one of the things I thought, when I read through your chapter on the Industrial Revolution\u2014and obviously, there were a lot of good things: industry, commerce; I mean, we\u2019re not just saying it was a bad thing\u2014it was just the net result on men and the family.<\/p>\n<p>One of your quotes that was a letter to the editor in The Independent\u2014I\u2019m just going to read it. It said, \u201cThe American man\u201d\u2014this was during this Industrial Revolution time\u2014\u201cThe American man, in gaining the world, is losing his own soul. He prostitutes his energy, vigor, and courage to one sole end, materialistic success. Mammonology, the idolatry of mammon or money, is the great American religion.\u201d You know, as I read that, I thought, \u201c\u2026even today.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I want to say to the men listening: we are still prone\u2014centuries later\u2014but we are prone\u2014and I\u2019m not saying women aren\u2019t as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we are, too, in this day, Dave. We\u2019re pulled\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we are prone to mammonology.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Women, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve never even heard that term before; I\u2019m like, \u201cWe worship money and success.\u201d I\u2019m not blaming the Industrial Revolution, but it brought that in\u2014higher success rates, money, prosperity; you name it!\u2014all beautiful things; but the American church is plagued by that as well.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to say to a man: \u201cThat is not our call. Our call is to serve our wife; our call is to serve our children; our call is to be a leader in the community, like it was in the Colonial Age.\u201d Not that that was Utopia, but we\u2019ve lost a lot of that. I think we are easy as men today; it becomes toxic, because we become obsessed with the wrong things. That hurts our wives; it hurts our families; it hurts our kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014our society.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Part of me\u2014when I read your book, it revitalized my own soul\u2014to say, \u201cThat\u2019s what a man\u2019s called to! Not idolatry, but a worship of God.\u201d When I, as a man\u2014and as a husband and as a dad\u2014live that out in surrender to Jesus, the women and children in my home and in our culture thrive. You don\u2019t need feminists; there\u2019s nobody wanting to be one, because they\u2019re celebrating a man who lives as Christ did, loving them and serving them. Am I right? It brings life to everyone around you!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m clapping my hands; because I think we, as women, are longing for that. We\u2019re longing for men to step into\u2014and we, as women, are called to step into our identity as women and of who God has made us\u2014but culturally speaking, I look at you, and think, \u201cWe need men to step into that loving, sacrificial protecting in a beautiful way; and serving their families, their wives, and their community.\u201d We need it, as a culture and a community.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and part of me wants to say, \u201cGuys, just live as Jesus lived. [Laughter] You want an image?\u2014there it is!\u201d And I\u2019ll remind you: \u201cYou can\u2019t!\u2014you can\u2019t apart from Christ\u2014if He isn\u2019t giving you the power to do that, you\u2019ll never do it. But if you do, trust me, your marriage, your home, your city, your neighborhood, your church will thrive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: You know, Dave said it best there: \u201cLive like Christ, and know that you simply can\u2019t do that apart from Christ.\u201d One of the things that I\u2019ve been trying to remind myself over and over and over again is: \u201cNeediness is a good thing in the Christian life if you take that neediness to Jesus and ask Him to change you.\u201d So why don\u2019t you do that? Admit that you\u2019re needy, and then take that neediness to Jesus Himself. Ask Him to change you; and watch things get different, as Dave said.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Nancy Pearcey on FamilyLife Today. You know, Nancy has written a fantastic book called The Toxic War on Masculinity. This talks about how Christianity reconciles the sexes. It\u2019s a very important book, and it\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. You can hop online and go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>And if you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you share it from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you\u2019re there, you can really help others learn about FamilyLife Today by leaving us a review.<\/p>\n<p>You know, toxic masculinity overlooks the real struggles faced by men and boys. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are back with Nancy Pearcey to talk about how to get on the solutions side of this very real problem. That\u2019s tomorrow; we hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1746558795:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_a3832dbb4eb1c05c61e834c32ca7c31b53fed1d3":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_a3832dbb4eb1c05c61e834c32ca7c31b53fed1d3":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:99:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Masculinity, Christianity\u2013and the (Surprising) Truth: Nancy Pearcey\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280422;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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and professor Nancy Pearcey explores sociological data to uncover why it's open season on masculinity\u2014and the surprising role of Christian men. It turns out the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize....","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Nancy Pearcey on her website: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nancypearcey.com\/\">nancypearcey.com<\/a><br \/>\nand get a copy of Nancy's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-toxic-war-on-masculinity-how-christianity-reconciles-the-sexes\/\">The Toxic War on Masculinity<\/a><br \/>\nGo to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/comingsoon\/\">familylife.com\/comingsoon<\/a> to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and to be notified of when pre-orders are live!<br \/>\nCheck out more episodes from <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/nancy-pearcey\/\">Nancy Pearcey<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of Brant's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/brant-hansen\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-10-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Masculinity, Christianity, and the (Surprising) Truth<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Nancy Pearcey<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Toxic War on Masculinity (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:October 10, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It turns out the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize. Most of us probably think about the \u201860s or something, with the feminist movement, second wave. No, no, no; you have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>When we first got married, you would often say, \u201cI never want to be like my dad, ever!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was a mission of my life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It was a mission, because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI will not become an alcoholic\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\"a womanizer\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\"womanizer, divorced, selfish, money idol.\u201d I mean, there were some good things about my dad; but he walked out when I was seven. I was on a quest: \u201cI will never become that man.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But when I was a junior in college, I looked in the mirror one day, and I thought, \u201cI am my dad.\u201d I wasn\u2019t a Christian yet, and I was scared. I was going to parties and drinking; I was the college quarterback, so I had women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And money was at the top.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh! I was like\u2014I picked my major\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was always thinking about money.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014based on: \u201cHow much money can I make?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, I come to Christ; and Jesus started transforming my life. I read the Bible, and I said, \u201cIf I don\u2019t do something, I\u2019m going to become my dad, even though I don\u2019t want to be. It\u2019s going to happen.\u201d One of my quests was: \u201cI\u2019ve got to find out what a godly man looks like, because I don\u2019t know.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you know what? You have become that. Really, honestly, I look at you and think, \u201cYou\u2019re an amazing man of God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, that\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we\u2019re going to talk about this. We have Nancy Pearcey back with us. Nancy, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Thank you. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019ve written a book called The Toxic War on Masculinity. We talked about it yesterday, and we ended our segment talking about this toxic masculinity and what\u2019s happening to the view of men in our culture. Is it just the United States, or is it happening worldwide?\u2014of this negative opinion of men.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Well, I think it\u2019s worldwide, just because whatever happens in the United States spreads. Yes, we ended the last program on the hostile rhetoric; because you asked me why I wrote the book. Part of it was because I was so blown away by how hostile the rhetoric is today\/how acceptable it is to say things negatively. There are books out now with titles like: I Hate Men, and No Good Men, and Are Men Necessary? You can get published with titles like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And even on TV, we see the man is the dummy. They\u2019re always dumbing him down, or he\u2019s the joke of the program. It never used to be like that. I don\u2019t know if it was healthy in the past; but now, we\u2019re at a whole different place.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And even men\u2014this was part of the surprise for me\u2014I looked at a news article where James Cameron, the Director of Avatar, said, \u201cTestosterone is a toxin,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014\"and you have to work it out of your system.\u201d There is a best-selling science-fiction writer, Hugh Howey, who said, \u201cTestosterone is the problem. Women should be in charge of everything.\u201d Another book author said, \u201cTalking about healthy masculinity is like talking about healthy cancer.\u201d I thought, \u201cThese are men! These are even male writers.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019re reading these things and getting a little riled up about it.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes; I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhere does this come from?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s my question:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cWhere does this come from?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Let me start where I start in the book. I wanted to start with the good news, because the bad news is pretty depressing. [Laughter] The good news is that evangelical men are doing very well. Christian men are, in fact, doing very well. Most Christians don\u2019t even know this. In fact, the reason they don\u2019t know it is because there\u2019s a lot of criticism of them as well. Let me give you a few quotes; it\u2019s very easy to find these online: \u201cConservative Protestant gender ideology can clearly lead to abuse, both physical and emotional.\u201d Another quote: \u201cIt\u2019s no secret that abuse is prevalent in conservative churches that embrace headship theory.\u201d Another quote: \u201cThe theology of male headship feeds the rape culture that we see permeating American Christianity today.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The problem with these accusations is that they ignore the data from the social sciences. The studies have found that evangelical family men\u2014meaning husbands and fathers\u2014who attend church regularly are the most loving husbands and the most engaged fathers. Compared to the average American family man, evangelical men are the most loving to their wives. And yes, they do interview the wives separately; that\u2019s important, because women wouldn\u2019t necessarily be honest [if interviewed with her husband].<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The women report the highest levels of being happy with the way their husbands treat them, with feeling loved and appreciated. They [evangelical fathers] are the most engaged with their children, both in shared activities, like sports and church youth group, and in discipline, like setting screen time or setting bedtime. They are the least likely to divorce of any group in America\u2014and here\u2019s the real stunner\u2014they have the lowest rates of domestic violence of any major group in America.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I tell people this; and everyone always sits back, kind of like, \u201cWhat?! How come we don\u2019t know this?\u201d The reason you don\u2019t know this is [because] it\u2019s all buried in academic literature. I had to read mostly academic sociological journals to pull this out.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it was there!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It was there! Sociologists have been doing these studies, partly because they wanted to find out, \u201cWhat is the data?\u201d They read these accusations, and they say, \u201cYes, but where\u2019s the evidence? Where\u2019s the evidence?\u201d So they go back, and they do the studies. They found that evangelical men actually are the most loving and engaged husbands and fathers of any group in America.<\/p>\n<p>The sociologists went back to the data then, and they divided out truly committed Christian men, who do attend church regularly. That\u2019s a fairly reliable correlate of whether they are truly committed Christians\u2014authentic Christians versus nominal\u2014that\u2019s the dividing line.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But they\u2019re [nominal Christians] not going to church, like you even said in the book, three times a month\u2014they\u2019re going less: maybe once; maybe not\u2014right?\u2014nominal.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Barely, if at all; right. It\u2019s mostly a family background; it\u2019s a cultural background.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The differences between these groups are absolutely devastating.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, am I right in what I read? You say that the difference is, if you\u2019re a practicing, evangelical man, all the [good] things you just said are true. If you\u2019re nominal, you\u2019re worse than a secular man.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I concluded.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This was shocking!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was scary.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It is. It was shocking when I first read it; yes. On all those numbers: first, their wives are the least happy with how their husbands treat them; they\u2019re the least engaged with their children in terms of shared activities and discipline. They have the highest level of divorce, higher than secular men; and they have the highest level of domestic violence of any group in America, higher than secular men. This is what the church is up against, then, because they are claiming to be Christian.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And I only found one study that gave the sizes. You and I probably hang out mostly with very committed Christian men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So we think, \u201cOh, those nominals: it\u2019s probably a small group\u201d, right? No; they\u2019re about the same size. That means if you meet somebody, who claims to be a Christian, or even an evangelical, there\u2019s about a 50 percent chance that it\u2019s actually a nominal Christian who tests out worse than secular men. This is really what young women need to know this when they\u2019re dating.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Seriously!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re saying\u2014a single girl, who\u2019s dating a guy\u2014she should say, \u201cHey, how many times did you go to church this month?\u201d [Laughter] He says, \u201cOnce\u201d; she should say, \u201cSee you later\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019d say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cYou\u2019re going to be worse to me than that guy over there, who says he doesn\u2019t believe in God.\u201d That is a little scary.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking they need to identify them by their fruit.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re looking for the fruit of the Spirit\u2014love, joy, peace, patience\u2026\u2014because they may be saying that they\u2019re a Christian; but by the fruit, it doesn\u2019t look like they are.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Some people ask me, \u201cWell, why are they worse than secular men?\u201d It seems to be\u2014and sociologists are number-crunchers, so they don\u2019t always tell you why\u2014but apparently they hang around the Christian world enough to get the language of headship and submission; and then they insert secular meaning of dominance, control, entitlement, and so on. They\u2019ve picked up the language that makes them feel more justified in those kinds of attitudes. They end up actually being worse than secular men.<\/p>\n<p>Actually, I wanted to read you this one quote\u2014my go-to sociologist here; the one who did the largest study\/his name is Brad Wilcox; he is at the University of Virginia\u2014he\u2019s considered one of the top marriage researchers in the nation. He says, \u201cIt turns out that the happiest wives in all of America\u201d\u2014by the way, they emphasize the wives; because the assumption is that, if there\u2019s any notion of headship\/of authority, then it\u2019s going to be oppressive to the woman\/abusive to the woman.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: They usually phrase it in terms of wives. \u201cIt turns out that the happiest wives, of all wives in America, are religious conservatives: fully 73 percent of wives, who hold conservative gender values and attend religious services regularly with their husband, have high-quality marriages.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you\u2019re saying this is hopeful. This is hopeful news!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It\u2019s very hopeful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it\u2019s good news when you\u2019re talking and hearing about so much toxic masculinity. There\u2019s good news in the midst [of it].<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Isn\u2019t it?!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It\u2019s so encouraging: \u201cHow do we get men to behave better?\u201d Tell them where they\u2019re doing a good job! [Laughter] Tell them where they\u2019re doing great stuff!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so hopeful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When you are regularly practicing your faith, this is one of the results. That inspires people to say, \u201cI am going to get serious about my faith. That\u2019s good news!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly. Most of the numbers put these two groups together. I like your word, \u201cpracticing.\u201d If practicing evangelical men do better than secular men, but nominal Christian men do worse than secular men\u2014if you put these two groups together, which is what most surveys do\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014most surveys: \u201cOh, are you an evangelical? We\u2019ll put you in this box.\u201d Obviously, the numbers are going to be completely skewed!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that\u2019s where most of our statistics get it wrong, because they put these two groups together.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. Well, let\u2019s talk about how the script turned to toxic\u2014this revolution of\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you really want to go toxic?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, I do!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m kidding; I\u2019m kidding. I love this good news; I just want to live here.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because I thought it was really interesting, how this played out over our history. And you [Nancy] laid that out, so take us back in time.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I really wanted to understand where this is coming from, because you can\u2019t really effectively counter something if you don\u2019t know where it\u2019s coming from and how it developed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It turns out, the very concept that masculinity is toxic has much deeper roots than most of us realize. Most of us probably think about the \u201860s or something, with the feminist movement, second wave. No, no, no; you have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution. Prior to the Industrial Revolution\u2014the Colonial Age\u2014men and women worked side by side; husband and wife worked side by side\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014farming.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014on the family farm; the family industry; the family shop. The husband and wife have a partnership, day in and day out; plus, men are working with their children all day. They\u2019re the ones who were teaching them, training them, and teaching them adult skills. Men were expected\/fathers were expected to be just as involved with their children as mothers were. The social expectation of the time was much more that men were in the care-taking role. They were supposed to be, not only fathers of their families\u2014but a very common phrase back then was \u201cfathers of the community\u201d\u2014they were supposed to bring that care-taking role into their community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a very loving way.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Exactly; exactly. One of my historians that I quote (not Christian) said, \u201cIn the Colonial Age, the masculine role was defined in terms of duty, duty to God and man.\u201d That\u2019s how he put it. The concept of authority was very clear; this was in the literature of the time. It means you\u2019re responsible for the common good. I look out for my good; you look out for what\u2019s good for you; but who looks out for the common good of our marriage\/of our family? That\u2019s what authority was for\u2014to look out for the common good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When I read that, I was like, \u201cMan, that man is so different than the man today.\u201d Even the fact that cooking books were written for men; they were very comfortable in the kitchen. Again, I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s not true today; but it was like that was what a man\u2019s role was in the home. He was a nurturer of his family\/of his kids. And we live in a culture now that\u2019s: \u201cThat\u2019s a woman\u2019s job, not a man\u2019s job.\u201d And that was never true!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: I love reading some of these historians. That was one of the quotes in the book: \u201cMen were as comfortable in the kitchen as women were,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014 was a direct quote from one of the historians.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: The Colonial Era\u2014and of course, it was mostly Christian back then\u2014the view of marriage and the view of masculinity in the Colonial Era was extremely positive. It gives us a baseline that we can compare to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then came\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014the Industrial\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014the Industrial Revolution.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Work is taken out of the home. That seems like a fairly simple thing; but what happens, of course, men had to follow their work out of the home into factories and offices. For the first time, they\u2019re not working with people whom they love and have a moral bond with. They\u2019re working as an individual man in competition with other men. That\u2019s where you see the script start to change. It was protested at first, by the way. People protested that: \u201cOur men are changing!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: In the industrial workplace, it seemed like men had to be much more self-assertive\/aggressive\u2014look out for number-one; egocentric; make it financially\u2014the language at the time was: \u201cOur men are losing the Christian ethos that they used to have.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Oh, and it\u2019s more secular\u2014that was part of it, too\u2014as the public square becomes large with factories, and offices, and banks, academia, and so on. You know, these large public institutions grow up; people began to say, \u201cWell, they should be run by scientific principles\u201d; by which they meant value-free. \u201cDon\u2019t bring your personal values into the public square; keep those at home.\u201d So men were being socialized into a secular worldview through their education and the workplace much sooner than women were.<\/p>\n<p>But if values don\u2019t belong in the public square, people still wanted to maintain values like love, and altruism, and self-sacrifice, and religious devotion, and so on; so who\u2019s going to be in charge of them? Well, if they\u2019re at home, women are in charge of them. For the first time ever in human history, women started being held up as morally superior to men. All the way back to the Ancient Greeks, the insight between right and wrong was seen as a rational insight, and men were thought to be more rational; therefore, men [were] more moral: \u201cMen are morally stronger than women.\u201d In fact, the word \u201cvirtue\u201d\u2014v-i-r is Latin for \u201cman.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Virtue had overtones of masculine strength and honor. Men were thought to be more virtuous. In the nineteenth century, for the first time ever, you see culture shifting and saying women are more virtuous; women are spiritually stronger, more morally [upright], you know? Men are out in that rough and tumble, amoral, secular realm of the marketplace in commerce and politics; and at night, they come home to be reformed and refined by their morally superior wives. That\u2019s where you get the double standard; this is when it began.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking about attendance in a church. I don\u2019t know if this is true\u2014I would have to research it\u2014but most churches I go into, generally speaking, have more women than men. I\u2019m wondering\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014still true, statistically.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying, but I\u2019m wondering: back before the Industrial Age, if you had gone into a church, would it have been more even?<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Different historians have different opinions on this, so I couldn\u2019t quite get a clear count. Today, the average church has 60 percent women, 40 percent men.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: That\u2019s David Murrow\u2019s statistic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: But in the early church, too\u2014there\u2019s a historian; he\u2019s a sociologist, but he studies the history of religion; his name is Rodney Stark\u2014he says [that], from the beginning, women were more drawn to the Christian church because they were given such higher status in the church than they were in the surrounding Roman culture. Women had very low status in the culture. When they went into the Christian church, they had much higher status and much more honor. He says, all the way from the beginning, we see evidence that there were more women than men because women were so much more honored and respected in the Chrisitan church.<\/p>\n<p>I forget\u2014it was one of the church fathers, who complains, \u201cWe have so many Christian maidens\u201d\u2014that\u2019s his ancient word\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: \u2014\u201cWe have so many Christian maidens; we\u2019re having trouble finding husbands for all of them.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And that\u2019s why 1 Peter talks about: \u201cWhat do you do if your husband\u2019s not a Christian?\u201d That was so common.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: It appears that Christianity, to some degree, has always attracted more women than men; but it did grow worse in America, especially after the First and Second Great Awakenings. The Great Awakenings, in many ways, are what framed\/gave us evangelicalism.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: And they did a great deal of good work. A lot of people came to Christianity or were restored to their faith through the Great Awakenings, but the problem with them was they had some negative baggage. They tended to focus on an intense emotional conversion experience. And who were thought to be more emotional?\u2014women!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014women.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: So that did seem to put religion into the sphere of women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: If you look at engravings made at the time of some of the revivals, they almost always show more women than men. The women would often be in the center, swooning and falling over, and having these great emotional experiences.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes, evangelicalism has had a greater problem, even than historic Christianity, in terms of attracting more women.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, one of the things I thought, when I read through your chapter on the Industrial Revolution\u2014and obviously, there were a lot of good things: industry, commerce; I mean, we\u2019re not just saying it was a bad thing\u2014it was just the net result on men and the family.<\/p>\n<p>One of your quotes that was a letter to the editor in The Independent\u2014I\u2019m just going to read it. It said, \u201cThe American man\u201d\u2014this was during this Industrial Revolution time\u2014\u201cThe American man, in gaining the world, is losing his own soul. He prostitutes his energy, vigor, and courage to one sole end, materialistic success. Mammonology, the idolatry of mammon or money, is the great American religion.\u201d You know, as I read that, I thought, \u201c\u2026even today.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I want to say to the men listening: we are still prone\u2014centuries later\u2014but we are prone\u2014and I\u2019m not saying women aren\u2019t as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we are, too, in this day, Dave. We\u2019re pulled\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we are prone to mammonology.<\/p>\n<p>Nancy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Women, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve never even heard that term before; I\u2019m like, \u201cWe worship money and success.\u201d I\u2019m not blaming the Industrial Revolution, but it brought that in\u2014higher success rates, money, prosperity; you name it!\u2014all beautiful things; but the American church is plagued by that as well.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to say to a man: \u201cThat is not our call. Our call is to serve our wife; our call is to serve our children; our call is to be a leader in the community, like it was in the Colonial Age.\u201d Not that that was Utopia, but we\u2019ve lost a lot of that. I think we are easy as men today; it becomes toxic, because we become obsessed with the wrong things. That hurts our wives; it hurts our families; it hurts our kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014our society.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Part of me\u2014when I read your book, it revitalized my own soul\u2014to say, \u201cThat\u2019s what a man\u2019s called to! Not idolatry, but a worship of God.\u201d When I, as a man\u2014and as a husband and as a dad\u2014live that out in surrender to Jesus, the women and children in my home and in our culture thrive. You don\u2019t need feminists; there\u2019s nobody wanting to be one, because they\u2019re celebrating a man who lives as Christ did, loving them and serving them. Am I right? It brings life to everyone around you!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m clapping my hands; because I think we, as women, are longing for that. We\u2019re longing for men to step into\u2014and we, as women, are called to step into our identity as women and of who God has made us\u2014but culturally speaking, I look at you, and think, \u201cWe need men to step into that loving, sacrificial protecting in a beautiful way; and serving their families, their wives, and their community.\u201d We need it, as a culture and a community.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and part of me wants to say, \u201cGuys, just live as Jesus lived. [Laughter] You want an image?\u2014there it is!\u201d And I\u2019ll remind you: \u201cYou can\u2019t!\u2014you can\u2019t apart from Christ\u2014if He isn\u2019t giving you the power to do that, you\u2019ll never do it. But if you do, trust me, your marriage, your home, your city, your neighborhood, your church will thrive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: You know, Dave said it best there: \u201cLive like Christ, and know that you simply can\u2019t do that apart from Christ.\u201d One of the things that I\u2019ve been trying to remind myself over and over and over again is: \u201cNeediness is a good thing in the Christian life if you take that neediness to Jesus and ask Him to change you.\u201d So why don\u2019t you do that? Admit that you\u2019re needy, and then take that neediness to Jesus Himself. Ask Him to change you; and watch things get different, as Dave said.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Nancy Pearcey on FamilyLife Today. You know, Nancy has written a fantastic book called The Toxic War on Masculinity. This talks about how Christianity reconciles the sexes. It\u2019s a very important book, and it\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. You can hop online and go to FamilyLifeToday.com, or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>And if you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you share it from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you\u2019re there, you can really help others learn about FamilyLife Today by leaving us a review.<\/p>\n<p>You know, toxic masculinity overlooks the real struggles faced by men and boys. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are back with Nancy Pearcey to talk about how to get on the solutions side of this very real problem. That\u2019s tomorrow; we hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. 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