{"id":280406,"date":"2023-11-01T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-11-01T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/"},"modified":"2025-03-12T15:41:50","modified_gmt":"2025-03-12T19:41:50","slug":"how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Wreck a Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>If you knew there was someone actively seeking to wreck your marriage, what would you do? Author Jonathan Pokluda insists that enemy exists\u2014and that knowing his strategies is critical to winning the war. He reveals ways to combat the vulnerabilities of your marriage for a deeper, more fulfilling relationship that truly wins.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>I think so often, we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that; or even worse, hiding it rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that He\u2019s calling us to in marriage. Then, my boy Brian is here. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re here, because the other day, I teased the Art of Marriage\u00ae. &#8212; Jonathan Pokluda<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If you knew there was someone actively seeking to wreck your marriage, what would you do? Author Jonathan Pokluda insists that enemy exists\u2014and that knowing his strategies is critical to winning the war. He reveals ways to combat the vulnerabilities of &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/a5a0d6ff-ac91-4796-9e10-b154011d4c4d\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:07","filesize":"24.86M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-11-01 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9594],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280406","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","cwp_profile-jp-pokluda","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280406\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280406\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"iasuYZCVeb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/\">How to Wreck a Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-wreck-a-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/embed\/#?secret=iasuYZCVeb\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Wreck a Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"iasuYZCVeb\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012824"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/a5a0d6ff-ac91-4796-9e10-b154011d4c4d\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:27:07"],"filesize":["24.86M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Click here to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">get notified of when pre-orders are live!<\/a><br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nReceive JP's\u00a0 book\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/october-2023\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do\/?cru_source=FLTD24andcru_medium=Icareandcru_campaign=October2023\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? when you give a donation<\/a><br \/>\nor find JP's<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\"> new book for purchase here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-01.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How to Wreck a Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? (Day 3 of 4)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 1, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and the character of Jesus Christ. It\u2019s the best kind of change, and it\u2019s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I\u2019m so thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: \u2014Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Here\u2019s a question for you: If the Devil were going to take you out, how would he do it? And don\u2019t say he\u2019s going to use your husband.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He would do something with my kids and make me incredibly fearful about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Fear.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you think that I would say that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You did?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I thought you\u2019d say something related to the kids or grandkids\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you thought it would be fear?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because you love them more than me. That\u2019s all I know. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You thought, \u201cHe\u2019d take out my husband and send me into a deep, dark depression.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He\u2019d give you an upgrade, definitely. And by the way, folks, you just heard the voice of Jonathan Pokluda.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We call him JP, pastor of Harris Creek Baptist in Waco. What I was thinking as I\u2019m looking over here is, there\u2019s somebody sitting beside you who\u2019s not quite as tall as you are.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You might have just set the record for the tallest guest we\u2019ve had, at least in this studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are you? Six-six?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Seven.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Six-seven.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; there are not a lot of guys that I look up to. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No; because you\u2019re tall, too, Brian. That\u2019s Brian Goins, by the way.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I\u2019m not hugely tall, but you say you\u2019re \u201cawkwardly\u201d tall.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I\u2019m weird tall, yes. I\u2019m weird tall. [Laughter] Once you cross six-five, then people look at you funny.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk about Brian Goins.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, let\u2019s do that. That sounds like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s do it. Tell our audience\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That won\u2019t take long.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A lot of our audience knows what you do at FamilyLife\u00ae, but you and Jen do what?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We do a couple different things. We do have the podcast, Married with Benefits, here on FamilyLife, [and it] has been fun to work with Shaunti Feldhahn.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, that\u2019s been a lot of fun. My wife, Jen, and I have been on the Weekend to Remember\u00ae team for 17 years now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re our boss.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Well, I prefer Chief. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Chief! That\u2019s better.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s what he told me up there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You lead the team.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you groom the team and train the team.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The Speaker Team.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s a humbling thing when you think about how many years you guys have been on the Speaker Team.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Don\u2019t ask.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I won\u2019t, but I know it\u2019s a little bit longer than 17. And then, we also get to work on great special projects for FamilyLife. [We\u2019ve] just created new things. You\u2019ve mentioned The Art of Marriage\u00ae. A lot of people that listen to this love The Art of Marriage, a six-session video curriculum on marriage, and have used it for years in churches, for events, and small groups..<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve just redone The Art of Marriage and are so excited to get the new version into the hands of people. In fact, Jonathan Pokluda is on it, and you guys are on it; so, I feel like I\u2019m surrounded by great talent again. You guys have done such a good job in being voices and giving your own authentic selves to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014all I know is, God used the original Art of Marriage in such a powerful way! I know He\u2019s going to do the same thing with this one.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I know it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One time we were asked by FamilyLife\u2014Dennis Rainey back in the day asked us\u2014to speak on the cruise. We\u2019d never been on the cruise, let alone been asked to speak. This is so funny. I say, \u201cSo, hey, think about this: Dave and Ann Wilson are going on this marriage cruise to speak. Nobody knows who we are!\u201d Well, we get on the boat. Of course, we hadn\u2019t spoken yet, so nobody knows us. Every person on the boat says, \u201cHey, Dave and Ann Wilson!\u201d We ask, \u201cHow do you know us?\u201d and they said, Art of Marriage. You\u2019re in The Art of Marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You were.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think, \u201cOh, my goodness. God has really used this.\u201d So, the prayer is this one will be used in an even greater way, Brian.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m excited about it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I hear about it. Truly, if God uses you to restore someone\u2019s marriage, you just see so much gratitude in that. So, even just being associated with you guys, I feel like people think, \u201cOh, yes. The Art of Marriage, the cruise you mentioned, those things.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: JP, you spoke on the cruise.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Brian has, too, with Jen.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes. What\u2019s funny about that\u2014you mentioned the cruise. That\u2019s actually where we recorded JP. In fact, if you watch the new Art of Marriage, he\u2019s in there, and then the Iveys are in there. They both have the same background, because we had one room, and we had one shot at this. It was the one time where the seas weren\u2019t too bumpy.<\/p>\n<p>I was just thinking about the book you have been talking about for the past couple days.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? by JP.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I thought, \u201cThis book has so much to do with marriage!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I just think of how many devices and how many marriages could have that title to their marriage. We do what we don\u2019t want to do. Why is it that we keep doing what we don\u2019t want to do? You talked about it in The Art of Marriage, and I think even this week you talked about how marriage puts a magnifying glass on our sin nature and just blows it up. Why are so many couples\u2014not to use the cruise analogy, but\u2014in this boat?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think so much of it comes down to expectations with marriage. I think it\u2019s a growing problem as I look at the next generation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: If you\u2019re a parent of a child that\u2019s not married yet or going into marriage, they think, \u201cHey, this person is going to complete me. They\u2019re going to fulfill me. Marriage is fun. I can\u2019t wait to get married so I will never have to sleep alone again. I\u2019m going to have this live-in roommate to help me every day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t go into it thinking, \u201cThis is something I\u2019m going to have to work really hard at.\u201d There are going to be some aspects of fulfillment there, but it\u2019s not there to fulfill me completely. It\u2019s not there to play the role of God. I think expectations are a part of it. I just think the sin nature that we all have\u2014If we could go around, what are the struggles that couples have? What are the sins that seem to cause issues in marriage? What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Anger, not knowing how to deal with it. I think it goes back to so much of our family of origin. I just talked to a guy this week; he and his wife are struggling, and it\u2019s like there was not a model for what to do or how to do it well.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Then, when I get in it and my spouse, to your point, is disappointing me, or they\u2019re not living up to my expectations, I feel this \u201ccheck engine\u201d light in my heart is going off, and I\u2019m getting mad; but I don\u2019t know what to do with that anger, so I just give in to it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think selfishness which is rooted in pride. I hear a lot: \u201cShe just spends so much money,\u201d or \u201cHe just spends so much money.\u201d It goes both ways.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What came to my mind is\u2014and I did this not for a year, [but] I think I did this for over a decade\u2014I blamed Ann for my anger. When Brian said, \u201cAnger,\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, there I am. That was definitely one of mine.\u201d I always blamed her: \u201cI wasn\u2019t this angry before, but now\u2014.\u201d I think a lot of us do this in marriage. Whether it\u2019s anger or whatever it is, it\u2019s like we turn it toward them: \u201cI\u2019m an angrier man than I ever was. I wouldn\u2019t be this angry if I were single.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Or we may think, \u201cIf I were married to somebody else\u2014.\u201d We think it\u2019s her or him. I was wrong. It was what you said Day One. It was a mirror to me. Ann was being used by God to say, \u201cThis is who you are.\u201d Then, like you said earlier, your kids do the same thing, and it forces you to either stay an angry man and be selfish and never change, or say, \u201cI have to deal with this.\u201d This is a gift. She\u2019s a gift from God to point that out.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s such a hard situation, where you have one spouse walking on eggshells all the time, and even trying to manage the kids: \u201cDon\u2019t set him off. Don\u2019t make Daddy angry. Let\u2019s make sure the house is peaceful.\u201d Or Mommy, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: It goes both ways, but that\u2019s a really difficult situation. It\u2019s a hopeful situation though.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s always what I want to say. Whatever marriage situation we\u2019re dealing with, James 1:19: \u201cBe quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry, for a person\u2019s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.\u201d There is a righteous life that God desires, a better life that God desires. There is a life of forgiveness. I\u2019ve seen that, and you\u2019ve become that, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I only know you today; I don\u2019t know you then. Anger doesn\u2019t mark you today, and I would say what marks you is grace and forgiveness. That\u2019s the hope that I would give the listeners: God can take the angry person and make them a person of short accounts, make them a person of reconciliation, an ambassador, a minister of reconciliation. He does that work. There is a path toward that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t think I would have forgiven my Dad, which a lot of it was family of origin, to be the man that you sense maybe some grace in, without her.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She\u2019s the one that looked at me one day and said, \u201cYou need to forgive your dad,\u201d which I got angry about. [Laughter] \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d That was the catalyst to say, \u201cGod gave me a woman as a gift, to say, \u2018I\u2019m going to make you better, if you\u2019ll listen. You have a partner who is going to help you become like Christ, and there she is\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s why I love [that] God gave you a voice to help people in marriage bring out the best in their spouse. I see His hand on you and on Ann, so I\u2019m excited.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How about you, JP? What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: One that I would say I trip over in counseling others and see so predominantly in myself is apathy. I think there is just such a temptation to come home and say, \u201cOkay, I worked hard, and I really need to veg for a minute. I just want to get lost on my devices.\u201d My kind of guilty pleasure is Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist.. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is Dave!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Dude, I am the King of that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I go on there\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014there\u2019s our common bond.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You\u2019re still using Craigslist?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I\u2019m more Facebook Marketplace.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Waco doesn\u2019t have a Craigslist community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you looking for a deal?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: All the time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: All the time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So is he.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: So that\u2019s what I do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ll look for a deal for you. Tell me what you want. I\u2019ll go look for it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: People will reach out and say, \u201cWe need a golf cart. Find me a golf cart,\u201d and I say, \u201cI\u2019ve got you. No sweat.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And that\u2019s one, for a wife, when our husband\u2019s aren\u2019t engaged, or they\u2019re present but they\u2019re not mentally present, it drives us crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; and just the phone, the idolatrous phone. That\u2019s where it is. I\u2019ll just sit there and scroll, and I\u2019ll look through things. The kids say, \u201cDad, Dad,\u201d and it\u2019s so convicting to even think about. But what does it look like to save your best for when you get home, for the people that are closest to you? What does it look like to engage?<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes, I\u2019ll pull in the garage and just stop and pray, and say, \u201cAlright, Lord. Please help me in this transition. I have nothing left in the tank. I\u2019m tired. I\u2019m coming from a really tough pastoral care meeting, or meetings all day that have just drained me. Please help me to go in here, because I know some of them are going to be excited to see me, and we\u2019re going to sit down for dinner. You entrusted these three arrows to me. Help me to have something to say, questions to ask.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The most important disciples.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Brian, let me ask you: you have revamped and redone The Art of Marriage. There were great things in the old one. Tell us about the new one. Is it different for a new generation, some of the things we\u2019re talking about. Is it in there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, it\u2019s funny, even some of the stuff that JP is talking about. Let me just say this: here\u2019s what is consistent about the old and what is new. The old one was great.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: The old one did something different. It wasn\u2019t a talking head. It was like a symphony of voices, and it was also a variety of creativity. Bob Lepine and Dennis Rainey did a fantastic job in doing something different in video curriculum that, again, a church can use for an event or a small group, or couples could go through it. But I think what we\u2019ve really tried to do is: \u201cHow do we take that and really move more toward \u2018what\u2019s the art?\u2019 and emphasize the art of marriage?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>God is the designer. He\u2019s the creator, and like any artist, whether it\u2019s a book that they\u2019re writing or whether it\u2019s something they\u2019re painting or sculpting, every artist has an intention. They want something to be put on display. So, what we try to ask is, \u201cWhat would God want to display in marriage? What are the characteristics?\u201d A lot of it really hits on some of what you\u2019re talking about with these virtues.<\/p>\n<p>What are the virtues of God, that when a marriage actually displays that towards one another, the biproduct becomes oneness. The biproduct becomes this sense of joy that we all want in marriage. God never intended us to be glorified roommates, where we\u2019re taking each other for granted and our anger is running rampant. He actually wanted us to experience oneness. That happens when we actually display God towards each other.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And we can\u2019t do that on our own. So, one of the things, like JP says, and you guys are in it\u2014he Wilsons are in it; JP is in it. We have a number of other great voices and people from all around the country and different types of art forms that are presented throughout, so we\u2019re really excited about what it\u2019s going to do.<\/p>\n<p>One of my favorite quotes\u2014I\u2019m going to read one from you, Ann, that you have. I\u2019m going to do that towards the end. But JP, you talk about, and it hits on what we\u2019re saying; I\u2019m going to see if you remember it. I\u2019ll start it with a prompt: \u201cIf you don\u2019t want to change\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Oh, \u201c\u2014don\u2019t get married.\u201d Is that what I said?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes. \u201cIf you don\u2019t want to change, then you won\u2019t like marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u201cAnd if you don\u2019t want to serve\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan and Brian: [In unison] \u201cYou\u2019re not going to like marriage.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I think that\u2019s really the problem that we all face: at the end of the day, I\u2019m not stupid. I know the verses. I\u2019m just stubborn.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I don\u2019t want to change, and I want you to change more than I want me to change. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Right. It\u2019s like so many things in life. As I spend time with young people on the other side of the altar, before they get married, I say that they need to hear one of two things: they need to hear that marriage is hard, or they need to hear that marriage is good, because some of them have over-indexed on the difficulty of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They think, \u201cOh, it\u2019s so hard. I don\u2019t want to get married. I\u2019m going to stay single the rest of my life.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, but marriage is good. It\u2019s a gift from the Lord. \u2018Whoever finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord.\u2019\u201d Not ultimate, and singleness can be good, and Jesus was single, and all of those things, but marriage is good. There\u2019s something there that God has for us.<\/p>\n<p>But some of them need to hear marriage is hard, because they have rose-colored glasses. \u201cIt\u2019s going to be easy; it\u2019s going to make me better.\u201d As you move toward that, you just need to know that your role is service and sacrifice. When I turn to Ephesians 5, I\u2019m not even talking about the specific role of a husband and wife; I\u2019m talking about the call on both of those people to make sacrifices for one another and to serve one another. That is what I see in the text when we\u2019re talking about marriage.<\/p>\n<p>It produces something really great in us. When I got married\u2014I\u2019ve told you\u2014[in] year two, the wheels fell off, and I wanted out, because I did not think about that as my role, to sacrifice and to serve her. I thought, \u201cOh, man, this is fun. It\u2019s like a never-ending honeymoon. It\u2019s going to be a blast.\u201d It got hard, and I wanted out so fast.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I didn\u2019t have the tools, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m so thankful for the ways that you guys have just created so many helpful tools. I hear all the time of just the restoration that is taking place in marriages because of the work that God has done through you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: This is a tool, so talk about the fact\u2014you guys are both pastors, and you\u2019ve served at a church for a number of years. You do a lot in marriage ministry. If we\u2019re going to move towards virtue and move away from vice, JP, you talk about how it\u2019s not about stopping a bad habit. It\u2019s about replacing it with a good habit.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s the role of people? Why is that such a crucial thing for couples to engage with others, and how do you even use a tool like that? How would you guys recommend that? How have you seen that at work in your own lives?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: To go back to that year two, the wheels fell off, I would tell you that community\u2014and when I say community, think \u201csmall group, home group, cell group, life group,\u201d or whatever you call them in your context; we called them community groups at the time; it was actually specifically called a \u201cFoundation Group,\u201d because it was for newly married couples\u2014changed my life more than anything else other than Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Getting plugged in with these other couples\u2014we\u2019ve said before together that marriage is this mirror that shows you how selfish you are. But in some ways that\u2019s not safe for Monica, right? When I just see her, and I think, \u201cAll you are is a mirror that shows me how selfish I am.\u201d [Laughter] But these guys came around me then, and they said, \u201cOh, no, no, no, you really are that selfish.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, what?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you heard them and believed it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; and I could say, \u201cBut you don\u2019t understand! She\u2014\u201d and they said, \u201cNo, no, no, you\u2019re the problem.\u201d I said, \u201cWait. Hold on. How am I the problem?\u201d I can tell you stories that they said that I was hearing for the first time, that the Holy Spirit just turned the light bulb on, and I thought, \u201cOh, my goodness. I\u2019m that selfish. I\u2019m that selfish. I need to change. What am I going to do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>They said, \u201cWell, here\u2019s what you do,\u201d and they knew the Word. We were all at different places in our spiritual journey. Monica and I went into that small group as the furthest from Jesus, if you will, or the furthest from mature Christianity, and God used them. Then, ultimately, I became their pastor, which is a crazy journey. And then recently, one of them even moved with us.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was thinking, Brian, when you said that, and I\u2019m sure JP can relate to this as a pastor, one of the discouraging things, I think, is that you\u2019ll spend hours a week preparing this sermon that you\u2014I always said to Ann, \u201cEvery sermon has to be Super Bowl. It has to be the best of the best.\u201d Of course, it never was. But when you walk up there to give that sermon, here\u2019s what we know: most people\u2019s lives are not going to be changed by what I say today.<\/p>\n<p>Hopefully, God uses it, and I\u2019m not going to underestimate [how] the teaching of the Word of God transforms lives, but you know as a pastor, \u201cIf they don\u2019t do anything else with this hour, nothing\u2019s going to happen in their life.\u201d But if they take that and then jump in a cell group, or a family group, or a life group, or whatever your church calls it (or FamilyLife calls it), and they get in a community with other people, then\u2014in some ways I think, \u201cWow, I\u2019m not that important. The cell group leader is more important than I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Yes, it\u2019s true. When we got in our first marriage group, when you sit there, this magic thing happens when another couple shares their struggle, and you look at each other. [Laughter] You can\u2019t say it out loud yet, but you get in the car and say, \u201cThey\u2019re like us! They yelled at each other like we did this week. We have to go back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then you start to dig into the Word together, and you get to see God change your life. Every cell group or life group needs a tool, and The Art of Marriage is a tool. That\u2019s what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, because otherwise you\u2019re just sitting around like, \u201cWhat are we going to talk about?\u201d We\u2019re going to talk about sports; we\u2019re going to talk about food, what we ate last. This actually gives you the conversations you most need to have, but don\u2019t know how to have. FamilyLife really helps prompt those things to get you a little bit deeper than the superficial stuff. Like you said, Dave, it\u2019s like when you do that, you realize you\u2019re not alone, which is so helpful. I think it\u2019s what the enemy\u2019s goal is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014to isolate you.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: As long as he can keep you isolated in your house with the garage door down and no one really knows what\u2019s going on, the more that he can keep you\u2014the power of addiction is secrecy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember the first\u2014it was a Sunday school class that Dave and I led. We were in our 20s. We were newly married. We were still struggling in our early years of marriage, and we thought, \u201cLet\u2019s just go through this small group on marriage.\u201d It was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>what was it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: FamilyLife Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what it was; FamilyLife Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes. That\u2019s way back.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, yes. I did Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We thought, \u201cNobody\u2019s going to come. Who\u2019s going to want to do this?\u201d I think we started out with maybe ten people, so, five couples. By probably four weeks later, this thing had 150 people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The pastor came to us and said, \u201cWho are you, and what are you doing? Because half our church is going to your Sunday School.\u201d We said, \u201cYes, we\u2019re just talking about marriage.\u201d And that\u2019s all it was.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it made us realize people are hurting. Nobody\u2019s talking about [it]; people are hurting. Dave and I didn\u2019t have all the answers. We were still struggling, but that probably changed our marriage. But besides Jesus and being dependent on the Holy Spirit, being surrendered to Him, and prayer, that started to change our marriage, by God\u2019s grace.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We did Homebuilders; to your point\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you\u2019re not old enough to have done Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I did, I\u2019m telling you. [Laughter] When you say that, it\u2019s crazy\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: They found it at some Half-Price Books! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: No, no, no! Somebody led us through it. And I\u2019ll tell you, to your point, the first time we met as a group, just the guys circled up, and Monica called me on the way home and said, \u201cHey, how was it?\u201d I said, \u201cOh, it was fine. I\u2019m never going back, but it was fine.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You said that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And I tell people to this day, it was God\u2019s grace to me that the next Thursday rolled around, and I went back, and I sat in that living room, and then I went back. I don\u2019t know why, but God used that more than anything else in the context of community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because Monica was praying.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: But it\u2019s funny that there is something that people are listening, and they\u2019ll go to The Art of Marriage, or through The Art of Marriage, and they\u2019ll think, \u201cMan, I don\u2019t want to say this in front of these people. I don\u2019t know them well. I don\u2019t want to go back.\u201d And if you push through that, that is where the real change\u2014we talk about the change that comes in marriage. It\u2019s a good change! Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and character of Jesus Christ. It\u2019s the best kind of change, and it\u2019s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I\u2019m so thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Man, that\u2019s such a good word. It\u2019s one of those things where you get the life that you really long for, and not only that you long for, but as we talk about in The Art of Marriage, that actually God designed you for.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: He designed you not to be alone. Someone once said, \u201cIf you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.\u201d There\u2019s probably no other marathon that\u2019s longer than marriage. We can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: James 5:17 says, \u201cConfess your sins,\u201d not to God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: To one another.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u201cTo one another, and then you\u2019ll be healed.\u201d So, when we confess to one another, there\u2019s so much power in saying, \u201cI want to be healed.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to read that other quote, Ann. It\u2019s actually funny. I\u2019m looking at the workbook, and this session\u2014it\u2019s from session three\u2014is all about God\u2019s agape love towards us, which, as we live that out towards each other, agape really means, \u201cI\u2019m going to do what\u2019s best for you regardless of what it costs me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Marriage is about me serving and sacrificing on a daily basis. But Ann, you said this, one of the things that we got you on video saying: \u201cI think all of us have a reason to get divorced, because we fail each other miserably. We don\u2019t meet each other\u2019s needs. There are things that we hope for and we don\u2019t get, but there is a great reason to stay in. God renews. God restores. There\u2019s always hope\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014there\u2019s always hope\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014for a new day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, right across from your page, we have JP\u2019s quote, the one I just talked\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Pull my stuff out, and just repeat that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: No, your is good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We\u2019re super excited that this is out, and we believe God is going to use it to really help renew and restore a ton of marriages. So, thank you guys for being a part of this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Thank you, Brian.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I mean, we really appreciate all that you did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know you \u2018ve been working on this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thanks, Brian. And JP, it\u2019s so fun to have you in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I love it. It\u2019s fun for me; it\u2019s more fun for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thanks, guys.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? It\u2019s going to be a book that really helps you replace deadly vices in your life with life-giving virtues. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at FamilyLife. So, how do you do that? You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d And you can feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Today is November 1st, and the day is finally here! It is today. We are hosting our very first Art of Marriage preview event tonight. Do you ever wonder what marriage is actually for? Maybe you\u2019ve wanted more out of what you\u2019ve got in your marriage. Well, we\u2019re going to help you with that.<\/p>\n<p>Aaron and Jamie Ivey, Vivian Mabuni, Jonathan Pokluda, and Brian Goins are going to be contributors tonight. It\u2019s going to be an event that really helps you get a good idea for what The Art of Marriage resource is going to be when it releases. So there\u2019s still time. You can register at FamilyLife.com\/ComingSoon or check out our link in the show notes. Be a part of that event tonight.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow, Brian Goins and JP are going to be back to discuss the challenges that couples face in marriage, and how virtues play a crucial role in improving your relationships. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1741808588:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_666370b548de47447c1cdc9dd367436c0569cd23":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_666370b548de47447c1cdc9dd367436c0569cd23":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:71:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] How to Wreck a Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280406;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your submission!\";s:22:\"customThankyouRedirect\";s:0:\"\";s:10:\"jetpackCRM\";b:1;s:9:\"className\";N;s:9:\"postToUrl\";N;s:14:\"salesforceData\";N;s:12:\"hiddenFields\";N;}"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2023-11-01 09:15:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/a5a0d6ff-ac91-4796-9e10-b154011d4c4d\/audio.mp3"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-280406.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-280406.js"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"If you knew there was someone actively seeking to wreck your marriage, what would you do? Author Jonathan Pokluda insists that enemy exists\u2014and that knowing his strategies is critical to winning the war. He reveals ways to combat the vulnerabilities of ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Click here to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">get notified of when pre-orders are live!<\/a><br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nReceive JP's\u00a0 book\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/october-2023\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do\/?cru_source=FLTD24andcru_medium=Icareandcru_campaign=October2023\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? when you give a donation<\/a><br \/>\nor find JP's<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\"> new book for purchase here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How to Wreck a Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? (Day 3 of 4)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 1, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and the character of Jesus Christ. It\u2019s the best kind of change, and it\u2019s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I\u2019m so thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: \u2014Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Here\u2019s a question for you: If the Devil were going to take you out, how would he do it? And don\u2019t say he\u2019s going to use your husband.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He would do something with my kids and make me incredibly fearful about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Fear.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you think that I would say that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You did?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I thought you\u2019d say something related to the kids or grandkids\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you thought it would be fear?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because you love them more than me. That\u2019s all I know. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You thought, \u201cHe\u2019d take out my husband and send me into a deep, dark depression.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He\u2019d give you an upgrade, definitely. And by the way, folks, you just heard the voice of Jonathan Pokluda.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We call him JP, pastor of Harris Creek Baptist in Waco. What I was thinking as I\u2019m looking over here is, there\u2019s somebody sitting beside you who\u2019s not quite as tall as you are.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You might have just set the record for the tallest guest we\u2019ve had, at least in this studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are you? Six-six?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Seven.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Six-seven.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; there are not a lot of guys that I look up to. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No; because you\u2019re tall, too, Brian. That\u2019s Brian Goins, by the way.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I\u2019m not hugely tall, but you say you\u2019re \u201cawkwardly\u201d tall.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I\u2019m weird tall, yes. I\u2019m weird tall. [Laughter] Once you cross six-five, then people look at you funny.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk about Brian Goins.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, let\u2019s do that. That sounds like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Do it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s do it. Tell our audience\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That won\u2019t take long.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A lot of our audience knows what you do at FamilyLife\u00ae, but you and Jen do what?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We do a couple different things. We do have the podcast, Married with Benefits, here on FamilyLife, [and it] has been fun to work with Shaunti Feldhahn.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, that\u2019s been a lot of fun. My wife, Jen, and I have been on the Weekend to Remember\u00ae team for 17 years now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re our boss.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Well, I prefer Chief. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Chief! That\u2019s better.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s what he told me up there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You lead the team.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you groom the team and train the team.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The Speaker Team.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s a humbling thing when you think about how many years you guys have been on the Speaker Team.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Don\u2019t ask.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I won\u2019t, but I know it\u2019s a little bit longer than 17. And then, we also get to work on great special projects for FamilyLife. [We\u2019ve] just created new things. You\u2019ve mentioned The Art of Marriage\u00ae. A lot of people that listen to this love The Art of Marriage, a six-session video curriculum on marriage, and have used it for years in churches, for events, and small groups..<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve just redone The Art of Marriage and are so excited to get the new version into the hands of people. In fact, Jonathan Pokluda is on it, and you guys are on it; so, I feel like I\u2019m surrounded by great talent again. You guys have done such a good job in being voices and giving your own authentic selves to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014all I know is, God used the original Art of Marriage in such a powerful way! I know He\u2019s going to do the same thing with this one.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I know it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One time we were asked by FamilyLife\u2014Dennis Rainey back in the day asked us\u2014to speak on the cruise. We\u2019d never been on the cruise, let alone been asked to speak. This is so funny. I say, \u201cSo, hey, think about this: Dave and Ann Wilson are going on this marriage cruise to speak. Nobody knows who we are!\u201d Well, we get on the boat. Of course, we hadn\u2019t spoken yet, so nobody knows us. Every person on the boat says, \u201cHey, Dave and Ann Wilson!\u201d We ask, \u201cHow do you know us?\u201d and they said, Art of Marriage. You\u2019re in The Art of Marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You were.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think, \u201cOh, my goodness. God has really used this.\u201d So, the prayer is this one will be used in an even greater way, Brian.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m excited about it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I hear about it. Truly, if God uses you to restore someone\u2019s marriage, you just see so much gratitude in that. So, even just being associated with you guys, I feel like people think, \u201cOh, yes. The Art of Marriage, the cruise you mentioned, those things.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: JP, you spoke on the cruise.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And Brian has, too, with Jen.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes. What\u2019s funny about that\u2014you mentioned the cruise. That\u2019s actually where we recorded JP. In fact, if you watch the new Art of Marriage, he\u2019s in there, and then the Iveys are in there. They both have the same background, because we had one room, and we had one shot at this. It was the one time where the seas weren\u2019t too bumpy.<\/p>\n<p>I was just thinking about the book you have been talking about for the past couple days.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? by JP.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I thought, \u201cThis book has so much to do with marriage!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I just think of how many devices and how many marriages could have that title to their marriage. We do what we don\u2019t want to do. Why is it that we keep doing what we don\u2019t want to do? You talked about it in The Art of Marriage, and I think even this week you talked about how marriage puts a magnifying glass on our sin nature and just blows it up. Why are so many couples\u2014not to use the cruise analogy, but\u2014in this boat?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think so much of it comes down to expectations with marriage. I think it\u2019s a growing problem as I look at the next generation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: If you\u2019re a parent of a child that\u2019s not married yet or going into marriage, they think, \u201cHey, this person is going to complete me. They\u2019re going to fulfill me. Marriage is fun. I can\u2019t wait to get married so I will never have to sleep alone again. I\u2019m going to have this live-in roommate to help me every day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t go into it thinking, \u201cThis is something I\u2019m going to have to work really hard at.\u201d There are going to be some aspects of fulfillment there, but it\u2019s not there to fulfill me completely. It\u2019s not there to play the role of God. I think expectations are a part of it. I just think the sin nature that we all have\u2014If we could go around, what are the struggles that couples have? What are the sins that seem to cause issues in marriage? What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Anger, not knowing how to deal with it. I think it goes back to so much of our family of origin. I just talked to a guy this week; he and his wife are struggling, and it\u2019s like there was not a model for what to do or how to do it well.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Then, when I get in it and my spouse, to your point, is disappointing me, or they\u2019re not living up to my expectations, I feel this \u201ccheck engine\u201d light in my heart is going off, and I\u2019m getting mad; but I don\u2019t know what to do with that anger, so I just give in to it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think selfishness which is rooted in pride. I hear a lot: \u201cShe just spends so much money,\u201d or \u201cHe just spends so much money.\u201d It goes both ways.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What came to my mind is\u2014and I did this not for a year, [but] I think I did this for over a decade\u2014I blamed Ann for my anger. When Brian said, \u201cAnger,\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, there I am. That was definitely one of mine.\u201d I always blamed her: \u201cI wasn\u2019t this angry before, but now\u2014.\u201d I think a lot of us do this in marriage. Whether it\u2019s anger or whatever it is, it\u2019s like we turn it toward them: \u201cI\u2019m an angrier man than I ever was. I wouldn\u2019t be this angry if I were single.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Or we may think, \u201cIf I were married to somebody else\u2014.\u201d We think it\u2019s her or him. I was wrong. It was what you said Day One. It was a mirror to me. Ann was being used by God to say, \u201cThis is who you are.\u201d Then, like you said earlier, your kids do the same thing, and it forces you to either stay an angry man and be selfish and never change, or say, \u201cI have to deal with this.\u201d This is a gift. She\u2019s a gift from God to point that out.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s such a hard situation, where you have one spouse walking on eggshells all the time, and even trying to manage the kids: \u201cDon\u2019t set him off. Don\u2019t make Daddy angry. Let\u2019s make sure the house is peaceful.\u201d Or Mommy, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: It goes both ways, but that\u2019s a really difficult situation. It\u2019s a hopeful situation though.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s always what I want to say. Whatever marriage situation we\u2019re dealing with, James 1:19: \u201cBe quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry, for a person\u2019s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.\u201d There is a righteous life that God desires, a better life that God desires. There is a life of forgiveness. I\u2019ve seen that, and you\u2019ve become that, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I only know you today; I don\u2019t know you then. Anger doesn\u2019t mark you today, and I would say what marks you is grace and forgiveness. That\u2019s the hope that I would give the listeners: God can take the angry person and make them a person of short accounts, make them a person of reconciliation, an ambassador, a minister of reconciliation. He does that work. There is a path toward that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t think I would have forgiven my Dad, which a lot of it was family of origin, to be the man that you sense maybe some grace in, without her.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She\u2019s the one that looked at me one day and said, \u201cYou need to forgive your dad,\u201d which I got angry about. [Laughter] \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d That was the catalyst to say, \u201cGod gave me a woman as a gift, to say, \u2018I\u2019m going to make you better, if you\u2019ll listen. You have a partner who is going to help you become like Christ, and there she is\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s why I love [that] God gave you a voice to help people in marriage bring out the best in their spouse. I see His hand on you and on Ann, so I\u2019m excited.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How about you, JP? What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: One that I would say I trip over in counseling others and see so predominantly in myself is apathy. I think there is just such a temptation to come home and say, \u201cOkay, I worked hard, and I really need to veg for a minute. I just want to get lost on my devices.\u201d My kind of guilty pleasure is Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist.. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is Dave!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Dude, I am the King of that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I go on there\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014there\u2019s our common bond.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You\u2019re still using Craigslist?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I\u2019m more Facebook Marketplace.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Waco doesn\u2019t have a Craigslist community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you looking for a deal?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: All the time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: All the time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So is he.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: So that\u2019s what I do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ll look for a deal for you. Tell me what you want. I\u2019ll go look for it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: People will reach out and say, \u201cWe need a golf cart. Find me a golf cart,\u201d and I say, \u201cI\u2019ve got you. No sweat.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And that\u2019s one, for a wife, when our husband\u2019s aren\u2019t engaged, or they\u2019re present but they\u2019re not mentally present, it drives us crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; and just the phone, the idolatrous phone. That\u2019s where it is. I\u2019ll just sit there and scroll, and I\u2019ll look through things. The kids say, \u201cDad, Dad,\u201d and it\u2019s so convicting to even think about. But what does it look like to save your best for when you get home, for the people that are closest to you? What does it look like to engage?<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes, I\u2019ll pull in the garage and just stop and pray, and say, \u201cAlright, Lord. Please help me in this transition. I have nothing left in the tank. I\u2019m tired. I\u2019m coming from a really tough pastoral care meeting, or meetings all day that have just drained me. Please help me to go in here, because I know some of them are going to be excited to see me, and we\u2019re going to sit down for dinner. You entrusted these three arrows to me. Help me to have something to say, questions to ask.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The most important disciples.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Brian, let me ask you: you have revamped and redone The Art of Marriage. There were great things in the old one. Tell us about the new one. Is it different for a new generation, some of the things we\u2019re talking about. Is it in there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, it\u2019s funny, even some of the stuff that JP is talking about. Let me just say this: here\u2019s what is consistent about the old and what is new. The old one was great.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: The old one did something different. It wasn\u2019t a talking head. It was like a symphony of voices, and it was also a variety of creativity. Bob Lepine and Dennis Rainey did a fantastic job in doing something different in video curriculum that, again, a church can use for an event or a small group, or couples could go through it. But I think what we\u2019ve really tried to do is: \u201cHow do we take that and really move more toward \u2018what\u2019s the art?\u2019 and emphasize the art of marriage?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>God is the designer. He\u2019s the creator, and like any artist, whether it\u2019s a book that they\u2019re writing or whether it\u2019s something they\u2019re painting or sculpting, every artist has an intention. They want something to be put on display. So, what we try to ask is, \u201cWhat would God want to display in marriage? What are the characteristics?\u201d A lot of it really hits on some of what you\u2019re talking about with these virtues.<\/p>\n<p>What are the virtues of God, that when a marriage actually displays that towards one another, the biproduct becomes oneness. The biproduct becomes this sense of joy that we all want in marriage. God never intended us to be glorified roommates, where we\u2019re taking each other for granted and our anger is running rampant. He actually wanted us to experience oneness. That happens when we actually display God towards each other.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And we can\u2019t do that on our own. So, one of the things, like JP says, and you guys are in it\u2014he Wilsons are in it; JP is in it. We have a number of other great voices and people from all around the country and different types of art forms that are presented throughout, so we\u2019re really excited about what it\u2019s going to do.<\/p>\n<p>One of my favorite quotes\u2014I\u2019m going to read one from you, Ann, that you have. I\u2019m going to do that towards the end. But JP, you talk about, and it hits on what we\u2019re saying; I\u2019m going to see if you remember it. I\u2019ll start it with a prompt: \u201cIf you don\u2019t want to change\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Oh, \u201c\u2014don\u2019t get married.\u201d Is that what I said?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes. \u201cIf you don\u2019t want to change, then you won\u2019t like marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u201cAnd if you don\u2019t want to serve\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan and Brian: [In unison] \u201cYou\u2019re not going to like marriage.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann and Dave: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I think that\u2019s really the problem that we all face: at the end of the day, I\u2019m not stupid. I know the verses. I\u2019m just stubborn.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I don\u2019t want to change, and I want you to change more than I want me to change. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Right. It\u2019s like so many things in life. As I spend time with young people on the other side of the altar, before they get married, I say that they need to hear one of two things: they need to hear that marriage is hard, or they need to hear that marriage is good, because some of them have over-indexed on the difficulty of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They think, \u201cOh, it\u2019s so hard. I don\u2019t want to get married. I\u2019m going to stay single the rest of my life.\u201d I say, \u201cOh, but marriage is good. It\u2019s a gift from the Lord. \u2018Whoever finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord.\u2019\u201d Not ultimate, and singleness can be good, and Jesus was single, and all of those things, but marriage is good. There\u2019s something there that God has for us.<\/p>\n<p>But some of them need to hear marriage is hard, because they have rose-colored glasses. \u201cIt\u2019s going to be easy; it\u2019s going to make me better.\u201d As you move toward that, you just need to know that your role is service and sacrifice. When I turn to Ephesians 5, I\u2019m not even talking about the specific role of a husband and wife; I\u2019m talking about the call on both of those people to make sacrifices for one another and to serve one another. That is what I see in the text when we\u2019re talking about marriage.<\/p>\n<p>It produces something really great in us. When I got married\u2014I\u2019ve told you\u2014[in] year two, the wheels fell off, and I wanted out, because I did not think about that as my role, to sacrifice and to serve her. I thought, \u201cOh, man, this is fun. It\u2019s like a never-ending honeymoon. It\u2019s going to be a blast.\u201d It got hard, and I wanted out so fast.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I didn\u2019t have the tools, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m so thankful for the ways that you guys have just created so many helpful tools. I hear all the time of just the restoration that is taking place in marriages because of the work that God has done through you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: This is a tool, so talk about the fact\u2014you guys are both pastors, and you\u2019ve served at a church for a number of years. You do a lot in marriage ministry. If we\u2019re going to move towards virtue and move away from vice, JP, you talk about how it\u2019s not about stopping a bad habit. It\u2019s about replacing it with a good habit.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s the role of people? Why is that such a crucial thing for couples to engage with others, and how do you even use a tool like that? How would you guys recommend that? How have you seen that at work in your own lives?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: To go back to that year two, the wheels fell off, I would tell you that community\u2014and when I say community, think \u201csmall group, home group, cell group, life group,\u201d or whatever you call them in your context; we called them community groups at the time; it was actually specifically called a \u201cFoundation Group,\u201d because it was for newly married couples\u2014changed my life more than anything else other than Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Getting plugged in with these other couples\u2014we\u2019ve said before together that marriage is this mirror that shows you how selfish you are. But in some ways that\u2019s not safe for Monica, right? When I just see her, and I think, \u201cAll you are is a mirror that shows me how selfish I am.\u201d [Laughter] But these guys came around me then, and they said, \u201cOh, no, no, no, you really are that selfish.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, what?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you heard them and believed it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes; and I could say, \u201cBut you don\u2019t understand! She\u2014\u201d and they said, \u201cNo, no, no, you\u2019re the problem.\u201d I said, \u201cWait. Hold on. How am I the problem?\u201d I can tell you stories that they said that I was hearing for the first time, that the Holy Spirit just turned the light bulb on, and I thought, \u201cOh, my goodness. I\u2019m that selfish. I\u2019m that selfish. I need to change. What am I going to do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>They said, \u201cWell, here\u2019s what you do,\u201d and they knew the Word. We were all at different places in our spiritual journey. Monica and I went into that small group as the furthest from Jesus, if you will, or the furthest from mature Christianity, and God used them. Then, ultimately, I became their pastor, which is a crazy journey. And then recently, one of them even moved with us.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was thinking, Brian, when you said that, and I\u2019m sure JP can relate to this as a pastor, one of the discouraging things, I think, is that you\u2019ll spend hours a week preparing this sermon that you\u2014I always said to Ann, \u201cEvery sermon has to be Super Bowl. It has to be the best of the best.\u201d Of course, it never was. But when you walk up there to give that sermon, here\u2019s what we know: most people\u2019s lives are not going to be changed by what I say today.<\/p>\n<p>Hopefully, God uses it, and I\u2019m not going to underestimate [how] the teaching of the Word of God transforms lives, but you know as a pastor, \u201cIf they don\u2019t do anything else with this hour, nothing\u2019s going to happen in their life.\u201d But if they take that and then jump in a cell group, or a family group, or a life group, or whatever your church calls it (or FamilyLife calls it), and they get in a community with other people, then\u2014in some ways I think, \u201cWow, I\u2019m not that important. The cell group leader is more important than I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Yes, it\u2019s true. When we got in our first marriage group, when you sit there, this magic thing happens when another couple shares their struggle, and you look at each other. [Laughter] You can\u2019t say it out loud yet, but you get in the car and say, \u201cThey\u2019re like us! They yelled at each other like we did this week. We have to go back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then you start to dig into the Word together, and you get to see God change your life. Every cell group or life group needs a tool, and The Art of Marriage is a tool. That\u2019s what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, because otherwise you\u2019re just sitting around like, \u201cWhat are we going to talk about?\u201d We\u2019re going to talk about sports; we\u2019re going to talk about food, what we ate last. This actually gives you the conversations you most need to have, but don\u2019t know how to have. FamilyLife really helps prompt those things to get you a little bit deeper than the superficial stuff. Like you said, Dave, it\u2019s like when you do that, you realize you\u2019re not alone, which is so helpful. I think it\u2019s what the enemy\u2019s goal is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014to isolate you.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: As long as he can keep you isolated in your house with the garage door down and no one really knows what\u2019s going on, the more that he can keep you\u2014the power of addiction is secrecy.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Amen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember the first\u2014it was a Sunday school class that Dave and I led. We were in our 20s. We were newly married. We were still struggling in our early years of marriage, and we thought, \u201cLet\u2019s just go through this small group on marriage.\u201d It was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>what was it?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: FamilyLife Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what it was; FamilyLife Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes. That\u2019s way back.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, yes. I did Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We thought, \u201cNobody\u2019s going to come. Who\u2019s going to want to do this?\u201d I think we started out with maybe ten people, so, five couples. By probably four weeks later, this thing had 150 people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The pastor came to us and said, \u201cWho are you, and what are you doing? Because half our church is going to your Sunday School.\u201d We said, \u201cYes, we\u2019re just talking about marriage.\u201d And that\u2019s all it was.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it made us realize people are hurting. Nobody\u2019s talking about [it]; people are hurting. Dave and I didn\u2019t have all the answers. We were still struggling, but that probably changed our marriage. But besides Jesus and being dependent on the Holy Spirit, being surrendered to Him, and prayer, that started to change our marriage, by God\u2019s grace.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We did Homebuilders; to your point\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you\u2019re not old enough to have done Homebuilders.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I did, I\u2019m telling you. [Laughter] When you say that, it\u2019s crazy\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: They found it at some Half-Price Books! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: No, no, no! Somebody led us through it. And I\u2019ll tell you, to your point, the first time we met as a group, just the guys circled up, and Monica called me on the way home and said, \u201cHey, how was it?\u201d I said, \u201cOh, it was fine. I\u2019m never going back, but it was fine.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You said that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And I tell people to this day, it was God\u2019s grace to me that the next Thursday rolled around, and I went back, and I sat in that living room, and then I went back. I don\u2019t know why, but God used that more than anything else in the context of community.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because Monica was praying.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: But it\u2019s funny that there is something that people are listening, and they\u2019ll go to The Art of Marriage, or through The Art of Marriage, and they\u2019ll think, \u201cMan, I don\u2019t want to say this in front of these people. I don\u2019t know them well. I don\u2019t want to go back.\u201d And if you push through that, that is where the real change\u2014we talk about the change that comes in marriage. It\u2019s a good change! Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and character of Jesus Christ. It\u2019s the best kind of change, and it\u2019s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I\u2019m so thankful.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Man, that\u2019s such a good word. It\u2019s one of those things where you get the life that you really long for, and not only that you long for, but as we talk about in The Art of Marriage, that actually God designed you for.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: He designed you not to be alone. Someone once said, \u201cIf you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.\u201d There\u2019s probably no other marathon that\u2019s longer than marriage. We can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: James 5:17 says, \u201cConfess your sins,\u201d not to God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: To one another.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u201cTo one another, and then you\u2019ll be healed.\u201d So, when we confess to one another, there\u2019s so much power in saying, \u201cI want to be healed.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to read that other quote, Ann. It\u2019s actually funny. I\u2019m looking at the workbook, and this session\u2014it\u2019s from session three\u2014is all about God\u2019s agape love towards us, which, as we live that out towards each other, agape really means, \u201cI\u2019m going to do what\u2019s best for you regardless of what it costs me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Marriage is about me serving and sacrificing on a daily basis. But Ann, you said this, one of the things that we got you on video saying: \u201cI think all of us have a reason to get divorced, because we fail each other miserably. We don\u2019t meet each other\u2019s needs. There are things that we hope for and we don\u2019t get, but there is a great reason to stay in. God renews. God restores. There\u2019s always hope\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014there\u2019s always hope\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014for a new day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then, right across from your page, we have JP\u2019s quote, the one I just talked\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Pull my stuff out, and just repeat that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: No, your is good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: We\u2019re super excited that this is out, and we believe God is going to use it to really help renew and restore a ton of marriages. So, thank you guys for being a part of this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Thank you, Brian.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I mean, we really appreciate all that you did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know you \u2018ve been working on this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thanks, Brian. And JP, it\u2019s so fun to have you in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I love it. It\u2019s fun for me; it\u2019s more fun for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thanks, guys.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? It\u2019s going to be a book that really helps you replace deadly vices in your life with life-giving virtues. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at FamilyLife. So, how do you do that? You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d And you can feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Today is November 1st, and the day is finally here! It is today. We are hosting our very first Art of Marriage preview event tonight. Do you ever wonder what marriage is actually for? Maybe you\u2019ve wanted more out of what you\u2019ve got in your marriage. Well, we\u2019re going to help you with that.<\/p>\n<p>Aaron and Jamie Ivey, Vivian Mabuni, Jonathan Pokluda, and Brian Goins are going to be contributors tonight. It\u2019s going to be an event that really helps you get a good idea for what The Art of Marriage resource is going to be when it releases. So there\u2019s still time. You can register at FamilyLife.com\/ComingSoon or check out our link in the show notes. Be a part of that event tonight.<\/p>\n<p>Tomorrow, Brian Goins and JP are going to be back to discuss the challenges that couples face in marriage, and how virtues play a crucial role in improving your relationships. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280406","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280406"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280406"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280406"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280406"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280406"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280406"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280406"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}