{"id":280405,"date":"2023-11-02T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-11-02T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/"},"modified":"2025-03-12T15:41:41","modified_gmt":"2025-03-12T19:41:41","slug":"how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Be \u201cAll There\u201d in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Ever find that even when you&#8217;re home, it&#8217;s hard to be \u201call there\u201d in your marriage? Jonathan Pokluda, author of Why Do I Do What I Don&#8217;t Want to Do: Replace Deadly Vices with Life-Giving Virtues has ideas on chucking the habits stealing your full attention from your relationship.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>I think so often, we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that; or even worse, hiding it rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that He\u2019s calling us to in marriage. Then, my boy Brian is here. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re here, because the other day, I teased the Art of Marriage\u00ae. &#8212; Jonathan Pokluda<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ever find that even when you&#8217;re home, it&#8217;s hard to be \u201call there\u201d in your marriage? Jonathan Pokluda, author of Why Do I Do What I Don&#8217;t Want to Do: Replace Deadly Vices with Life-Giving Virtues has ideas on chucking the habits stealing your full atte&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/3a051b8a-ad21-4918-992e-b154011d4acf\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:55","filesize":"24.68M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-11-02 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9594],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280405","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","cwp_profile-jp-pokluda","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280405\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280405\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"XJDqIiOzkq\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/\">How to Be \u201cAll There\u201d in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-be-all-there-in-your-marriage-jonathan-pokluda\/embed\/#?secret=XJDqIiOzkq\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Be \u201cAll There\u201d in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"XJDqIiOzkq\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012825"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/3a051b8a-ad21-4918-992e-b154011d4acf\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:26:55"],"filesize":["24.68M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Click here to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">get notified of when pre-orders are live!<\/a><br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nFind JP's new book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-02.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How to Be All There in Your Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Why Do I Do What I don\u2019t Want to Do? (Day 4 of 4)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 2, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, so today\u2019s a fun day. You know why?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about sin in our marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, I thought you were going to say because JP and Brian are with us. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, that\u2019s basically what I said. We\u2019re going to talk about sin.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s what I thought he was going to say, too. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We have two sinners sitting at the table with two other sinners.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Who are JP and Brian?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: First of all, they\u2019re our friends. They are good friends. JP has been on before; it\u2019s Jonathan Pokluda. And we\u2019re talking about his new book called\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? That\u2019s why I said we\u2019re talking about sin.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would say most of us ask that question daily.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhy do I do what I don\u2019t want to do?\u201d It\u2019s what Paul said in Romans 7. So, you kind of break that down with\u2014well, JP, you tell us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Vices and virtues!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Vices and virtues, which I think, as we talk about marriage, we have an enemy, and he hates marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we forget that.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And he doesn't want your marriage to last. He wants you to take the out. I think so often, we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that; or even worse, hiding it rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that He\u2019s calling us to in marriage. Then, my boy Brian is here. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re here, because the other day, I teased the Art of Marriage\u00ae.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They didn\u2019t ask me to say this, they\u2019re not paying me to say this. I\u2019m here because I love these guys. I love the work that God is doing through them; and if you have any influence at your church or even over a small group, find the Art of Marriage and go through it. It will help you. The resource has been out there. I\u2019ve heard a lot of testimonies of how it\u2019s helped people. You guys have made it better. You have given it a facelift, and I\u2019m so excited it\u2019s out there in the world.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: The Wilsons and JP are on it. We know Monica\u2014it\u2019s funny! That\u2019s what\u2014 [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They\u2019re going to think I\u2019m not married.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: They\u2019re going to think, \u201cWhy is this guy sitting by himself?\u201d because we have a ton of couples on this one, whereas we didn\u2019t have that as much on the first one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So, we have all these couples speaking together, and there are a couple single guys that speak and husbands that speak, and we actually have a couple women without their husbands that speak. But for some reason, JP is the one who\u2019s got a couch next to him, but it\u2019s like a wide-open space. People are like, \u201cWhere\u2019s his wife?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tell us how many years you\u2019ve been working? Two years, three years?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: On this new one.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: On this one. it\u2019s going to end up being about two years.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got to be excited. I mean you\u2019re sort of at the end.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And we\u2019re partnering with a great partner, Right Now Media. They\u2019re kind of the leader\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014love those guys!<\/p>\n<p>Briand: \u2014in small group curriculum and video curriculum. So, it\u2019s immediately going to have a huge distribution.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: JP, in your book, Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? you mentioned these vices and then the virtue and one of them is busyness and rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That impacts a marriage every single day.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I feel like it\u2019s a killer in our culture right now, especially\u2013does it feel like it to you guys, we\u2019re busier than ever?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Oh, for sure! There are so many stats around information that we take in one day is more than a decade in the past. I\u2019ll butcher the quote\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014wow\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014it was\u2014it needs no exaggeration because I read it, and I thought, \u201cWow! That\u2019s significant.\u201d Rest is a hot button. I mean, there are a lot of books being written right now about Sabbath, and rest, and what rhythms look like. I\u2019ve heard \u201cbusy\u201d is an acronym: Being Under Satan\u2019s Yoke. One of the tools he uses is just to keep us away from the riches of the Father, the righteous life that He has for us, and the virtues that He calls us to. He just makes us busy.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: He just distracts you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, do you guys feel like you\u2019ve had seasons in your life, maybe one right now, that you\u2019re too busy?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes; and I was thinking about this in my marriage: busyness is a great anesthesia to numb the pain that\u2019s there, that I don\u2019t want to deal with. Whether that\u2019s work or, honestly, I can be busy with entertainment, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say, I can get into a Netflix series\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014yes\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and just be gone.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It is just\u2014that\u2019s exactly right. I can just fill up my calendar with all kinds of stuff. It doesn\u2019t have to be, you know, just your workaholism. It can be every distraction known to man. Every entertainment is at our fingertips, and I can avoid the things that most matter.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We\u2019re not efficient workers anymore. In generations past, if you were going to do a job, you would go to do the job and really focus on that job. If you were going to cut down a tree, you were swinging an ax, and all of your time and energy were going to having that tree fall.<\/p>\n<p>Now, the way that we work is, we work on devices that also have the news, the Bible, [Laughter] social media, and all kinds of information coming at us. So, we\u2019re always kind of working and kind of resting in some ways. It\u2019s a phenomenon they call \u2018weisure,\u2019 combining work and leisure together. So, we kind of stay in that mode. I think, if there\u2019s an indictment on me by my children\u2014I think they would say some great things about their dad, but\u2014I think they would say, \u201cAnd he was busy.\u201d That\u2019s a legacy I\u2019m working really diligently to change. The irony there is a little bit of an oxymoron: hey, what does it look like to work diligently and to rest well?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You know, to build in those healthy rhythms so that when I\u2019m with my son, I can just be with him.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Well, it makes me think (and I like what you said, to work at discovering rest or finding that rest); it reminds me of Hebrews where he says, \u201cstrive to enter His rest.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: There is a striving that, I think, Ann, is what you\u2019re saying: even now, more than ever, because of all this stuff. I\u2019d be curious, what have been really good things for you guys to do? I know for me; I was just at the beach. We live near the beach now that we live here, and the headquarters are here.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Way to flex! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I know! Yes, sorry about that. We live about an hour [away], and I\u2019m just amazed by how hard it is for me to sit on the beach.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And just\u2014Jen and I did this on Sunday for the first time in a long time, where we just sat there. And I just felt anxious.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I just taught Psalm 46. You get to Psalm 46:10, and He says, \u201cBe still and know that I am God. I just said in front of the congregation, \u201cDo you know how hard this is?\u201d When the earth is giving way, and the mountains are falling into the sea, and there\u2019s a tyrant Assyrian king at your gates wanting to kill you, the most counterintuitive thing to do is to be still and know that He is God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In the context of marriage, your spouse\u2014what does your spouse want? There\u2019s a really strong likelihood they want you to be still and to sit with them, and to listen, and\/or ask open-ended questions, and just be together. I think, if you\u2019re like me, sometimes I work so hard to change Monica\u2019s desire, because I want to go do that at a restaurant with a white tablecloth [Laughter] and have someone serving us. She\u2019s like, \u201cWell, why can\u2019t we just do that in the living room, sitting right here in our home and on the couch?\u201d I think, \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like this?\u201d rather than\u2014why don\u2019t I just come her way and just sit there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That would mean being fully present.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Have you guys\u2014because I had to go through this process. I should have done it in my thirties. I did it just a few years ago, the process of, \u201cWhy am I so busy?\u201d trying to get to the root. Ann would say for years, \u201cMy husband has five jobs,\u201d and when she\u2019d say that I\u2019d smile and think, \u201cThat\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s a badge of I\u2019m a productive guy!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, it\u2019s a badge of honor. It\u2019s all about the comments.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought it was great until I went and sat down with a counselor a few years ago, and he drew my life up on a board. At the end of five hours, the homework assignment was, \u201cGo home before we meet next week and answer this question: \u2018What am I running from\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I came home and said to Ann, \u201cGreg told me to answer this question?\u201d She said, \u201cDUH! I\u2019ve been trying to tell you this for decades!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it was one of the first times it forced me to the origin, to the root. \u201cWhat is it?\u201d You know, in our culture, it\u2019s sort of the busier you are, the more famous, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s crazy! The more followers you have. It\u2019s all these numbers! And it\u2019s like, \u201cWhy are we running so fast?\u201d It\u2019s killing our marriages, and we can feel it, but we keep going.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, and I wonder\u2014I\u2019d be curious; let\u2019s get super practical: what is it you do to build in that rhythm or that rest? Because you talk about the virtue as rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So, what does that look like for a marriage? Give me what your best practices are.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You have to find the source of the busyness. I made mention of my phone. Gifts are my love language; acts of service are my wife\u2019s. She loves acts of service. I love gifts. So, I will buy her anything I can [Laughter] to say, \u201cI love you.\u201d I\u2019ve given her some amazing gifts. I haven\u2019t always been in ministry. I was in the corporate world, so I\u2019ve given her some nice gifts; and they\u2019re mostly lost on her, because she doesn\u2019t care much about material things. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>One year, I went and bought a box. I cut a slit in the top of the box, and I put a lock on it. I gave it to her, and I gave her the key, and I said, \u201cThis is for my phone when I come home,\u201d and she wept.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh! That would be the best gift.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: She wept! I\u2019ve never seen her express such deep gratitude for anything, you know? So, I think [it\u2019s] just putting your phone in the drawer so that when you\u2019re present, you\u2019re present. I think it was Rick Warren who first said, \u201cDivert daily\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we put it in our book\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014\u201cwithdraw weekly, abandon annually.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I thought that was the Wilsons! That was Warren?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I say it in the book. I say that Rick Warren\u2013what we did with that\u2014he was talking about rhythms in your spiritual life;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014sure\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we took it to our marriage and said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to say this: \u2018If you want a great marriage, pray daily, date weekly, retreat annually.\u2019\u201d Same idea, but I want to apply that here\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014so good!\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014just like you do vertically here.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So good<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think you can think about that in terms of rest as well. \u201cHey, you need to create some space.\u201d We just got back from a family vacation where, for a week, I turned off all email, and I deleted all social media just to remove the temptation so that I could be with them. On a daily basis, there needs to be a time where you sit down and check in with everybody, you know? Just a moment when you\u2019re focused on each other.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve heard [that] kids spell love \u201cT-I-M-E,\u201d and then every week you\u2019re making a memory in some way, if at all possible. I\u2019m not trying to be rigid or legalistic about this, but as a regular rhythm, what does it look like for us to go and share a meal together, or stay and share a meal together, or to go bowling, or to play a game? It doesn\u2019t have to be expensive. It doesn\u2019t have to cost money. It\u2019s just time to be intentional with one another.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you guys Sabbath?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, but it has not been\u2014I mean, I wouldn\u2019t say for most of my marriage we Sabbathed well. We\u2019ve really\u2014over the past three or four years really\u2014tried to be far more intentional with that and just rest, not focus on digital media at all, not do work. Do work that\u2019s not what I\u2019m doing. Actually, working out in the yard is a restful activity.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It\u2019s not something I do during the week. So, finding those ways to celebrate the Lord, celebrate each other, have fun, and have a great meal together. There\u2019s so much out there right now. There are great books on that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. You would think\u2014as empty nesters, you would think, \u201cYou guys have all the time in the world!\u201d We have found that we\u2019re busier now than we have been.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Sure; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And one of the things that we\u2019ve done to carve out that time, because we\u2019re running so hard\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: -\u2013have we done something? [Laughter] I\u2019m waiting to hear what this is.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Ann has!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One is, we go to Mexico every year; but the other thing is, we realize since we\u2019re so busy now, that once a year isn\u2019t enough. So, last year for Dave\u2019s birthday, in between my birthday and his birthday, I said, \u201cLet\u2019s go to Las Vegas. We\u2019re going to go for two nights. We\u2019re going to go have great meals.\u201d We saw a couple of great shows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Saw John Legend.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: John Legend; the Beatles\u2019 \u201cLove.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was great!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it just gives us time [to say], \u201cHey, how are you doing?\u201d You know? That\u2019s been really good for us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, it\u2019s funny when you\u2019re a preacher; at least once a year I\u2019ll teach on Sabbath, and then I have to look at my life. Obviously, you\u2019re working on Sunday, so that\u2019s not a day, but to take a full day and rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Like you said, to sit at a beach and not be thinking, \u201cI\u2019ve got to go do something,\u201d or pull my phone out and start answering emails. It\u2019s really, I think, hard. Bring that into your marriage and say, \u201cWe need to rest together,\u201d is critical or your marriage is going to spin out of control.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And, JP, I\u2019m still stuck on your box.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Your box with the phone in it!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think I\u2019m getting a box for a gift this week! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m telling you.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I\u2019m afraid Jen\u2019s going to listen to that [Laughter] and say, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you get me a box?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Exactly! That\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking, too, because I thought, even when we watch tv, we\u2019ll be watching a show together, and Dave\u2019s on his phone. I say, \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d And I do the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She did it last night.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I got her, too: \u201cYou talk about me. Look at you\/1\u201d [Laughter] You know? It feels like you\u2019re not here, and that\u2019s exactly true. You\u2019re not here; especially as a dad with your kids. They need mom and dad to be fully present.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, you know, another one that you talk about in this book, that we\u2019ve never mentioned, that I think is huge in the family and in church families: drunkenness as the vice, and sobriety as the virtue. Can we talk about that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: What I talk about in the book is with my dad. Being home, growing up in our home, I never saw my dad drunk. After I left, he got vertigo, and he would self-medicate his vertigo with alcohol. The first day that he met Monica, I took Monica home to meet my parents; he stood up to shake her hand and fell down. I said, \u201cWhat is going on?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That wasn\u2019t vertigo?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: No, it was the first time I had ever seen my dad intoxicated; and then, from there on after, there were a lot of times. Sometimes we would drive home, and I would get home after, you know, a six-hour road trip (when we were living in Dallas). We would drive home to see them. I\u2019d have a conversation with him that night, and then the next morning, have the same conversation. It would stir in me a lot of anger and bitterness and really start our time home in that way.<\/p>\n<p>Then, being in ministry, you see how this impacts so many people. I\u2019m not a doctor, I\u2019m not a scientist\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014but somehow, this is easily passed on from one person to the next. Some may call it generational sin. Whatever that is, you see kind of stays in a family. So, then, I\u2019m looking at myself: \u201cI want to make sure this is not the thing that takes me out.\u201d It has taken many people in ministry out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We\u2019re not immune to this! Then I see, in marriages, one after the other after the other, one of the spouses is saying, \u201cHey, the other person, I see them just really checking out, diving into alcohol.\u201d So, this is something that the enemy uses. I\u2019m not old school. I\u2019m not coming saying, \u201cHey, whatever! Stay away! It\u2019s the devil\u2019s juice.\u201d It\u2019s not that. It\u2019s saying, \u201cThis is something the enemy uses to take you out. You need to be sober and alert to that reality.\u201d If you\u2019re in this place where you think, \u201cThis is something I need to hide,\u201d that\u2019s usually a giant red flag, a big warning signal. If you\u2019re doing something secretly, any sin for that matter, any vice secretly; if you\u2019re hiding it from others, I guarantee you, you are in a fence with the devil. This is something that lion that prowls around, that enemy that prowls around like a roaring lion, is looking to devour you in that way, if you\u2019re hiding it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a pastor for over 30 years, I saw this grow and grow and grow with church people compared to 30 years ago in my experience. I just saw more acceptance. I\u2019m not saying\u2014again, like you said you know\u2014I\u2019m not saying to have a drink is not scriptural, but to get drunk is. It\u2019s not God\u2019s will for our life. I would go to church events and think, \u201cWow! There\u2019s a freedom with alcohol here that\u2019s a little dangerous,\u201d and then I would hear people say, like you said JP, they started to hide it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s where you need to bring somebody in. I know it's a scary moment to say to somebody, \u201cI may have a problem with this,\u201d and take steps toward sobriety. Maybe that\u2019s not the word you\u2019re even thinking of but get in control to handle this in a productive way rather than a destructive way.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes. The other thing I would say is, I mentioned that it\u2019s usually one spouse saying, \u201cHey, my husband is struggling\u201d or \u201cMy wife is struggling in this way,\u201d but sometimes I see it\u2019s in both people, right? They enable that in each other, because that\u2019s what their marriage is built on. They met in a bar. They met when they were intoxicated. They got married and now, as the marriage continues, they have these really unhealthy habits of going out to dinner and drinking too much.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m just saying, \u201cYou know, the Scripture calls us to \u2018be sober-minded, to not be drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit, for it is not for kings to be drunk\u2019.\u201d We see all of these\u2014you know, the Proverbs, and all of these\u2014Scriptures that call us to sober thinking.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, you know Brian, you said earlier that busyness is an anesthesia.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Facts!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re covering up some pain.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And it\u2019s amazing how it has become\u2013I grew up Southern Baptist, [Laughter] so you know we didn\u2019t drink, we didn\u2019t smoke, we didn\u2019t watch R-rated movies, and we didn\u2019t date girls that did. I got to the place where I felt more freedom, but then what I noticed is that, more and more, I think this is becoming kind of the sin of Christians today. We have freedom in Christ, absolutely! But it\u2019s so easy to abuse that freedom. It\u2019s so easy to get to that place of, \u201cWell, we\u2019re always having small groups, and everybody brings wine,\u201d and all that kind of stuff. Well, you know, think about it. Is there anybody who really struggles with this?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It can\u2019t just be about our own pleasure. At some point in time, we\u2019ve got to be cognizant of the fact this trips up a ton of people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: In the book, I talk about these principles, because people say, \u201cOh, I can drink as long as I don\u2019t get drunk.\u201d I talk about, \u201cWell, you also need to consider, \u2018Is there someone there that struggles?\u201d Is there someone there who struggles with legalism? They say your freedom is going to hinder my relationship with God, because I don\u2019t think you should take it. That\u2019s one we never consider, but Scripture speaks to. So, I go through these principles to think through, and it usually surprises people: \u201cOh, I thought it was just not supposed to get drunk.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I would say this as we close: JP, thanks!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Well, I love you guys. I\u2019m so thankful to be here with you. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And thanks for being on FamilyLife Today, but thanks for being a part of Art of Marriage. I can\u2019t imagine how God\u2019s going to use this.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: [It\u2019s a] tremendous privilege!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You could have said, \u201cNo, I want to help marriages.\u201d So, thank you. And Brian, thank you for all the work you put in.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Absolutely!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know it was a lot of hours.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, and it really isn\u2019t just me. We\u2019ve got a great team of people working on it. I think about my buddy, Ed, who\u2019s been helping us with this, and Right Now Media, and the artists and poets that came alongside and crafted this great poem for every session; and the animators and the other voices that are on it.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think with that symphony of the whole body of Christ trying to paint the picture of what God\u2019s intention was for marriage\u2014we\u2019re not going to do that perfectly, but I think with this version, we really say, \u201cGod wants our marriage to experience oneness. The only way we do that is if we reflect the oneness of God. What are some of the characteristics of God that we can actually live out on a daily basis?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We talk about His steadfast love. We talk about forgiveness. We talk about agape, sacrificial love, you know? We talk about devakut, which is this Hebrew word which means \u201cto cleave and cling to one another\u201d through the highs and lows of life. We talk about the word yada, which is the Hebrew word for \u201cintimacy.\u201d We like to joke, \u201cWe\u2019re not bringing sexy back, we\u2019re bringing intimacy back.\u201d It\u2019s about being fully known and fully loved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s what you want when you get married. You didn\u2019t get married so you could have sex. You got married so that you could have intimacy. What does that really look like? We have some great voices there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Juli Slattery and others that are just fantastic on that. On top of that, it wasn\u2019t just to live happily ever after. It was to be God\u2019s euangellion, which is the Greek word for \u201cgospel good news.\u201d Our marriage, your marriage, my marriage, is to be on mission, and we get to bring the grace and the nature of God to all of those around us. How can every marriage be on mission? You can do that by just starting with the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Saying, \u201cHey guys, let\u2019s come talk about\u2014we\u2019re struggling in our marriage; I don\u2019t know if you guys are. We\u2019ve got this video. We\u2019re going to watch it and have a conversation about it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Invite some people over.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It\u2019s that easy!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Watch God work.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Have some food. I\u2019m just excited about what I think God is going to do through this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys are warriors for the Kingdom. Don\u2019t you feel so honored to be on this path with them?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, I do. I mean, I feel honored that we\u2019re part of Art of Marriage, because I know how God used it last time.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it\u2019s just so amazing, technology that God has given us that you never think somebody\u2019s going put something like that in their car and invite people over, or they\u2019re going to be invited over, and they\u2019re going to find Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And He\u2019s going to save their marriage, but He\u2019s, just as importantly, going to save a legacy, because it\u2019s going to be kids and grandkids.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I was just talking to a guy, and they\u2019ve been leading Art of Marriage now for nine years, and they had 23 couples who were in this home, and they just got through the day; and 13 people came to Christ!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Let\u2019s go!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You know?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: What else is there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: What did Dennis Rainey like to say? \u201cMarriage is one of the greatest Trojan horses for the gospel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: People may not go to church, but they want their relationships to work.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They may not come to Harris Creek, your church; but they might come to your kitchen, around your kitchen, around your living room, and talk about marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: What if God used you to bring your friends and neighbors to Christ? He can! Isn\u2019t that amazing? He wants to! An easy \u201cin\u201d with people is to help them in their marriages and relationships, and the Art of Marriage is the perfect resource to start those conversations that can lead someone into God\u2019s Kingdom of light. Let\u2019s do it! Let\u2019s do it together!<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today. You know, we\u2019ve been talking about the Art of Marriage all day today, and we hope you were able to join us last night for the Art of Marriage live preview event to learn why your marriage matters, because it does! If you missed it, Art of Marriage preorders are happening right now. You can go reserve your copy and get more amazing teaching from people like Jonathan Pokluda, Aaron and Jamie Ivy, Vivian Mabuni, and so much more.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to our link in the show notes to find out how to preorder your copy of the new Art of Marriage. Jonathan Pokluda has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? This is a book that really helps you practice virtues. And they\u2019re not just something you do; it\u2019s something that\u2019s done in you, slowly but surely by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n<p>Whether you\u2019re 18 years old or you\u2019re 80 years old, it\u2019s never too late to redefine what\u2019s important to you and reclaim a life of virtue. This book is going to help you with that. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow on FamilyLife Today, I\u2019m going to be in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson. We\u2019re going to listen to portions of my conversation with my friend Brian who\u2019s been a fellow sufferer in life. It\u2019s going to be from my FamilyLife podcast, Real Life Loading. Did you know that I host a podcast for 18\u201320-year-olds? Yes, I do! I know you\u2019re already subscribed, but in case you aren\u2019t, you can find a link in the show notes to get easy access to Real Life Loading. We\u2019re going to talk about all of that tomorrow and so much more. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1741808585:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_6e338c1d3801d441ee8c759f7334d235afdbdd71":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_6e338c1d3801d441ee8c759f7334d235afdbdd71":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:90:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] How to Be \u201cAll There\u201d in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280405;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank 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find that even when you're home, it's hard to be \u201call there\u201d in your marriage? Jonathan Pokluda, author of Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do: Replace Deadly Vices with Life-Giving Virtues has ideas on chucking the habits stealing your full atte...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Click here to sign up for the Art of Marriage live event and <a href=\"http:\/\/familylife.com\/comingsoon\">get notified of when pre-orders are live!<\/a><br \/>\nLearn more about Jonathan Pokluda at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jonathanpokluda.com\/home\">jonathanpokluda.com<\/a><br \/>\nConnect with JP \u2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jpokluda\/\">@jpokluda<\/a><br \/>\nFind JP's new book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/why-do-i-do-what-i-dont-want-to-do-replace-deadly-vices-with-life-giving-virtues\/\">Why Do I Do What I Don't Want to Do? here.<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all of JP's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jp-pokluda\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How to Be All There in Your Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Why Do I Do What I don\u2019t Want to Do? (Day 4 of 4)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 2, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, so today\u2019s a fun day. You know why?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about sin in our marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, I thought you were going to say because JP and Brian are with us. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, that\u2019s basically what I said. We\u2019re going to talk about sin.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: That\u2019s what I thought he was going to say, too. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We have two sinners sitting at the table with two other sinners.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Who are JP and Brian?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: First of all, they\u2019re our friends. They are good friends. JP has been on before; it\u2019s Jonathan Pokluda. And we\u2019re talking about his new book called\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? That\u2019s why I said we\u2019re talking about sin.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would say most of us ask that question daily.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWhy do I do what I don\u2019t want to do?\u201d It\u2019s what Paul said in Romans 7. So, you kind of break that down with\u2014well, JP, you tell us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Vices and virtues!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Vices and virtues, which I think, as we talk about marriage, we have an enemy, and he hates marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we forget that.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And he doesn't want your marriage to last. He wants you to take the out. I think so often, we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that; or even worse, hiding it rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that He\u2019s calling us to in marriage. Then, my boy Brian is here. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re here, because the other day, I teased the Art of Marriage\u00ae.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They didn\u2019t ask me to say this, they\u2019re not paying me to say this. I\u2019m here because I love these guys. I love the work that God is doing through them; and if you have any influence at your church or even over a small group, find the Art of Marriage and go through it. It will help you. The resource has been out there. I\u2019ve heard a lot of testimonies of how it\u2019s helped people. You guys have made it better. You have given it a facelift, and I\u2019m so excited it\u2019s out there in the world.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: The Wilsons and JP are on it. We know Monica\u2014it\u2019s funny! That\u2019s what\u2014 [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They\u2019re going to think I\u2019m not married.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: They\u2019re going to think, \u201cWhy is this guy sitting by himself?\u201d because we have a ton of couples on this one, whereas we didn\u2019t have that as much on the first one.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So, we have all these couples speaking together, and there are a couple single guys that speak and husbands that speak, and we actually have a couple women without their husbands that speak. But for some reason, JP is the one who\u2019s got a couch next to him, but it\u2019s like a wide-open space. People are like, \u201cWhere\u2019s his wife?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tell us how many years you\u2019ve been working? Two years, three years?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: On this new one.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: On this one. it\u2019s going to end up being about two years.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got to be excited. I mean you\u2019re sort of at the end.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And we\u2019re partnering with a great partner, Right Now Media. They\u2019re kind of the leader\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014love those guys!<\/p>\n<p>Briand: \u2014in small group curriculum and video curriculum. So, it\u2019s immediately going to have a huge distribution.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: JP, in your book, Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? you mentioned these vices and then the virtue and one of them is busyness and rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That impacts a marriage every single day.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I feel like it\u2019s a killer in our culture right now, especially\u2013does it feel like it to you guys, we\u2019re busier than ever?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Oh, for sure! There are so many stats around information that we take in one day is more than a decade in the past. I\u2019ll butcher the quote\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014wow\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014it was\u2014it needs no exaggeration because I read it, and I thought, \u201cWow! That\u2019s significant.\u201d Rest is a hot button. I mean, there are a lot of books being written right now about Sabbath, and rest, and what rhythms look like. I\u2019ve heard \u201cbusy\u201d is an acronym: Being Under Satan\u2019s Yoke. One of the tools he uses is just to keep us away from the riches of the Father, the righteous life that He has for us, and the virtues that He calls us to. He just makes us busy.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: He just distracts you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, do you guys feel like you\u2019ve had seasons in your life, maybe one right now, that you\u2019re too busy?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Oh, yes; and I was thinking about this in my marriage: busyness is a great anesthesia to numb the pain that\u2019s there, that I don\u2019t want to deal with. Whether that\u2019s work or, honestly, I can be busy with entertainment, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say, I can get into a Netflix series\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014yes\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and just be gone.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It is just\u2014that\u2019s exactly right. I can just fill up my calendar with all kinds of stuff. It doesn\u2019t have to be, you know, just your workaholism. It can be every distraction known to man. Every entertainment is at our fingertips, and I can avoid the things that most matter.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We\u2019re not efficient workers anymore. In generations past, if you were going to do a job, you would go to do the job and really focus on that job. If you were going to cut down a tree, you were swinging an ax, and all of your time and energy were going to having that tree fall.<\/p>\n<p>Now, the way that we work is, we work on devices that also have the news, the Bible, [Laughter] social media, and all kinds of information coming at us. So, we\u2019re always kind of working and kind of resting in some ways. It\u2019s a phenomenon they call \u2018weisure,\u2019 combining work and leisure together. So, we kind of stay in that mode. I think, if there\u2019s an indictment on me by my children\u2014I think they would say some great things about their dad, but\u2014I think they would say, \u201cAnd he was busy.\u201d That\u2019s a legacy I\u2019m working really diligently to change. The irony there is a little bit of an oxymoron: hey, what does it look like to work diligently and to rest well?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You know, to build in those healthy rhythms so that when I\u2019m with my son, I can just be with him.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Well, it makes me think (and I like what you said, to work at discovering rest or finding that rest); it reminds me of Hebrews where he says, \u201cstrive to enter His rest.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: There is a striving that, I think, Ann, is what you\u2019re saying: even now, more than ever, because of all this stuff. I\u2019d be curious, what have been really good things for you guys to do? I know for me; I was just at the beach. We live near the beach now that we live here, and the headquarters are here.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Way to flex! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I know! Yes, sorry about that. We live about an hour [away], and I\u2019m just amazed by how hard it is for me to sit on the beach.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: And just\u2014Jen and I did this on Sunday for the first time in a long time, where we just sat there. And I just felt anxious.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I just taught Psalm 46. You get to Psalm 46:10, and He says, \u201cBe still and know that I am God. I just said in front of the congregation, \u201cDo you know how hard this is?\u201d When the earth is giving way, and the mountains are falling into the sea, and there\u2019s a tyrant Assyrian king at your gates wanting to kill you, the most counterintuitive thing to do is to be still and know that He is God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In the context of marriage, your spouse\u2014what does your spouse want? There\u2019s a really strong likelihood they want you to be still and to sit with them, and to listen, and\/or ask open-ended questions, and just be together. I think, if you\u2019re like me, sometimes I work so hard to change Monica\u2019s desire, because I want to go do that at a restaurant with a white tablecloth [Laughter] and have someone serving us. She\u2019s like, \u201cWell, why can\u2019t we just do that in the living room, sitting right here in our home and on the couch?\u201d I think, \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like this?\u201d rather than\u2014why don\u2019t I just come her way and just sit there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That would mean being fully present.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Have you guys\u2014because I had to go through this process. I should have done it in my thirties. I did it just a few years ago, the process of, \u201cWhy am I so busy?\u201d trying to get to the root. Ann would say for years, \u201cMy husband has five jobs,\u201d and when she\u2019d say that I\u2019d smile and think, \u201cThat\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s a badge of I\u2019m a productive guy!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes, it\u2019s a badge of honor. It\u2019s all about the comments.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought it was great until I went and sat down with a counselor a few years ago, and he drew my life up on a board. At the end of five hours, the homework assignment was, \u201cGo home before we meet next week and answer this question: \u2018What am I running from\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I came home and said to Ann, \u201cGreg told me to answer this question?\u201d She said, \u201cDUH! I\u2019ve been trying to tell you this for decades!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it was one of the first times it forced me to the origin, to the root. \u201cWhat is it?\u201d You know, in our culture, it\u2019s sort of the busier you are, the more famous, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s crazy! The more followers you have. It\u2019s all these numbers! And it\u2019s like, \u201cWhy are we running so fast?\u201d It\u2019s killing our marriages, and we can feel it, but we keep going.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, and I wonder\u2014I\u2019d be curious; let\u2019s get super practical: what is it you do to build in that rhythm or that rest? Because you talk about the virtue as rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So, what does that look like for a marriage? Give me what your best practices are.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: You have to find the source of the busyness. I made mention of my phone. Gifts are my love language; acts of service are my wife\u2019s. She loves acts of service. I love gifts. So, I will buy her anything I can [Laughter] to say, \u201cI love you.\u201d I\u2019ve given her some amazing gifts. I haven\u2019t always been in ministry. I was in the corporate world, so I\u2019ve given her some nice gifts; and they\u2019re mostly lost on her, because she doesn\u2019t care much about material things. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>One year, I went and bought a box. I cut a slit in the top of the box, and I put a lock on it. I gave it to her, and I gave her the key, and I said, \u201cThis is for my phone when I come home,\u201d and she wept.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh! That would be the best gift.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: She wept! I\u2019ve never seen her express such deep gratitude for anything, you know? So, I think [it\u2019s] just putting your phone in the drawer so that when you\u2019re present, you\u2019re present. I think it was Rick Warren who first said, \u201cDivert daily\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we put it in our book\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014\u201cwithdraw weekly, abandon annually.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I thought that was the Wilsons! That was Warren?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I say it in the book. I say that Rick Warren\u2013what we did with that\u2014he was talking about rhythms in your spiritual life;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Brian: \u2014sure\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we took it to our marriage and said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to say this: \u2018If you want a great marriage, pray daily, date weekly, retreat annually.\u2019\u201d Same idea, but I want to apply that here\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014so good!\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014just like you do vertically here.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: So good<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: I think you can think about that in terms of rest as well. \u201cHey, you need to create some space.\u201d We just got back from a family vacation where, for a week, I turned off all email, and I deleted all social media just to remove the temptation so that I could be with them. On a daily basis, there needs to be a time where you sit down and check in with everybody, you know? Just a moment when you\u2019re focused on each other.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve heard [that] kids spell love \u201cT-I-M-E,\u201d and then every week you\u2019re making a memory in some way, if at all possible. I\u2019m not trying to be rigid or legalistic about this, but as a regular rhythm, what does it look like for us to go and share a meal together, or stay and share a meal together, or to go bowling, or to play a game? It doesn\u2019t have to be expensive. It doesn\u2019t have to cost money. It\u2019s just time to be intentional with one another.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you guys Sabbath?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, but it has not been\u2014I mean, I wouldn\u2019t say for most of my marriage we Sabbathed well. We\u2019ve really\u2014over the past three or four years really\u2014tried to be far more intentional with that and just rest, not focus on digital media at all, not do work. Do work that\u2019s not what I\u2019m doing. Actually, working out in the yard is a restful activity.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It\u2019s not something I do during the week. So, finding those ways to celebrate the Lord, celebrate each other, have fun, and have a great meal together. There\u2019s so much out there right now. There are great books on that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. You would think\u2014as empty nesters, you would think, \u201cYou guys have all the time in the world!\u201d We have found that we\u2019re busier now than we have been.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Sure; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And one of the things that we\u2019ve done to carve out that time, because we\u2019re running so hard\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: -\u2013have we done something? [Laughter] I\u2019m waiting to hear what this is.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Ann has!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One is, we go to Mexico every year; but the other thing is, we realize since we\u2019re so busy now, that once a year isn\u2019t enough. So, last year for Dave\u2019s birthday, in between my birthday and his birthday, I said, \u201cLet\u2019s go to Las Vegas. We\u2019re going to go for two nights. We\u2019re going to go have great meals.\u201d We saw a couple of great shows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Saw John Legend.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: John Legend; the Beatles\u2019 \u201cLove.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was great!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But it just gives us time [to say], \u201cHey, how are you doing?\u201d You know? That\u2019s been really good for us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know, it\u2019s funny when you\u2019re a preacher; at least once a year I\u2019ll teach on Sabbath, and then I have to look at my life. Obviously, you\u2019re working on Sunday, so that\u2019s not a day, but to take a full day and rest.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Like you said, to sit at a beach and not be thinking, \u201cI\u2019ve got to go do something,\u201d or pull my phone out and start answering emails. It\u2019s really, I think, hard. Bring that into your marriage and say, \u201cWe need to rest together,\u201d is critical or your marriage is going to spin out of control.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And, JP, I\u2019m still stuck on your box.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Your box with the phone in it!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think I\u2019m getting a box for a gift this week! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m telling you.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I\u2019m afraid Jen\u2019s going to listen to that [Laughter] and say, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you get me a box?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Exactly! That\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking, too, because I thought, even when we watch tv, we\u2019ll be watching a show together, and Dave\u2019s on his phone. I say, \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d And I do the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She did it last night.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I got her, too: \u201cYou talk about me. Look at you\/1\u201d [Laughter] You know? It feels like you\u2019re not here, and that\u2019s exactly true. You\u2019re not here; especially as a dad with your kids. They need mom and dad to be fully present.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, you know, another one that you talk about in this book, that we\u2019ve never mentioned, that I think is huge in the family and in church families: drunkenness as the vice, and sobriety as the virtue. Can we talk about that?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: What I talk about in the book is with my dad. Being home, growing up in our home, I never saw my dad drunk. After I left, he got vertigo, and he would self-medicate his vertigo with alcohol. The first day that he met Monica, I took Monica home to meet my parents; he stood up to shake her hand and fell down. I said, \u201cWhat is going on?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That wasn\u2019t vertigo?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: No, it was the first time I had ever seen my dad intoxicated; and then, from there on after, there were a lot of times. Sometimes we would drive home, and I would get home after, you know, a six-hour road trip (when we were living in Dallas). We would drive home to see them. I\u2019d have a conversation with him that night, and then the next morning, have the same conversation. It would stir in me a lot of anger and bitterness and really start our time home in that way.<\/p>\n<p>Then, being in ministry, you see how this impacts so many people. I\u2019m not a doctor, I\u2019m not a scientist\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: \u2014but somehow, this is easily passed on from one person to the next. Some may call it generational sin. Whatever that is, you see kind of stays in a family. So, then, I\u2019m looking at myself: \u201cI want to make sure this is not the thing that takes me out.\u201d It has taken many people in ministry out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: We\u2019re not immune to this! Then I see, in marriages, one after the other after the other, one of the spouses is saying, \u201cHey, the other person, I see them just really checking out, diving into alcohol.\u201d So, this is something that the enemy uses. I\u2019m not old school. I\u2019m not coming saying, \u201cHey, whatever! Stay away! It\u2019s the devil\u2019s juice.\u201d It\u2019s not that. It\u2019s saying, \u201cThis is something the enemy uses to take you out. You need to be sober and alert to that reality.\u201d If you\u2019re in this place where you think, \u201cThis is something I need to hide,\u201d that\u2019s usually a giant red flag, a big warning signal. If you\u2019re doing something secretly, any sin for that matter, any vice secretly; if you\u2019re hiding it from others, I guarantee you, you are in a fence with the devil. This is something that lion that prowls around, that enemy that prowls around like a roaring lion, is looking to devour you in that way, if you\u2019re hiding it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a pastor for over 30 years, I saw this grow and grow and grow with church people compared to 30 years ago in my experience. I just saw more acceptance. I\u2019m not saying\u2014again, like you said you know\u2014I\u2019m not saying to have a drink is not scriptural, but to get drunk is. It\u2019s not God\u2019s will for our life. I would go to church events and think, \u201cWow! There\u2019s a freedom with alcohol here that\u2019s a little dangerous,\u201d and then I would hear people say, like you said JP, they started to hide it.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s where you need to bring somebody in. I know it's a scary moment to say to somebody, \u201cI may have a problem with this,\u201d and take steps toward sobriety. Maybe that\u2019s not the word you\u2019re even thinking of but get in control to handle this in a productive way rather than a destructive way.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes. The other thing I would say is, I mentioned that it\u2019s usually one spouse saying, \u201cHey, my husband is struggling\u201d or \u201cMy wife is struggling in this way,\u201d but sometimes I see it\u2019s in both people, right? They enable that in each other, because that\u2019s what their marriage is built on. They met in a bar. They met when they were intoxicated. They got married and now, as the marriage continues, they have these really unhealthy habits of going out to dinner and drinking too much.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m just saying, \u201cYou know, the Scripture calls us to \u2018be sober-minded, to not be drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit, for it is not for kings to be drunk\u2019.\u201d We see all of these\u2014you know, the Proverbs, and all of these\u2014Scriptures that call us to sober thinking.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, you know Brian, you said earlier that busyness is an anesthesia.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Facts!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re covering up some pain.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: And it\u2019s amazing how it has become\u2013I grew up Southern Baptist, [Laughter] so you know we didn\u2019t drink, we didn\u2019t smoke, we didn\u2019t watch R-rated movies, and we didn\u2019t date girls that did. I got to the place where I felt more freedom, but then what I noticed is that, more and more, I think this is becoming kind of the sin of Christians today. We have freedom in Christ, absolutely! But it\u2019s so easy to abuse that freedom. It\u2019s so easy to get to that place of, \u201cWell, we\u2019re always having small groups, and everybody brings wine,\u201d and all that kind of stuff. Well, you know, think about it. Is there anybody who really struggles with this?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It can\u2019t just be about our own pleasure. At some point in time, we\u2019ve got to be cognizant of the fact this trips up a ton of people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: In the book, I talk about these principles, because people say, \u201cOh, I can drink as long as I don\u2019t get drunk.\u201d I talk about, \u201cWell, you also need to consider, \u2018Is there someone there that struggles?\u201d Is there someone there who struggles with legalism? They say your freedom is going to hinder my relationship with God, because I don\u2019t think you should take it. That\u2019s one we never consider, but Scripture speaks to. So, I go through these principles to think through, and it usually surprises people: \u201cOh, I thought it was just not supposed to get drunk.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I would say this as we close: JP, thanks!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Well, I love you guys. I\u2019m so thankful to be here with you. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And thanks for being on FamilyLife Today, but thanks for being a part of Art of Marriage. I can\u2019t imagine how God\u2019s going to use this.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: [It\u2019s a] tremendous privilege!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You could have said, \u201cNo, I want to help marriages.\u201d So, thank you. And Brian, thank you for all the work you put in.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Absolutely!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know it was a lot of hours.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Yes, and it really isn\u2019t just me. We\u2019ve got a great team of people working on it. I think about my buddy, Ed, who\u2019s been helping us with this, and Right Now Media, and the artists and poets that came alongside and crafted this great poem for every session; and the animators and the other voices that are on it.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think with that symphony of the whole body of Christ trying to paint the picture of what God\u2019s intention was for marriage\u2014we\u2019re not going to do that perfectly, but I think with this version, we really say, \u201cGod wants our marriage to experience oneness. The only way we do that is if we reflect the oneness of God. What are some of the characteristics of God that we can actually live out on a daily basis?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We talk about His steadfast love. We talk about forgiveness. We talk about agape, sacrificial love, you know? We talk about devakut, which is this Hebrew word which means \u201cto cleave and cling to one another\u201d through the highs and lows of life. We talk about the word yada, which is the Hebrew word for \u201cintimacy.\u201d We like to joke, \u201cWe\u2019re not bringing sexy back, we\u2019re bringing intimacy back.\u201d It\u2019s about being fully known and fully loved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: That\u2019s what you want when you get married. You didn\u2019t get married so you could have sex. You got married so that you could have intimacy. What does that really look like? We have some great voices there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Juli Slattery and others that are just fantastic on that. On top of that, it wasn\u2019t just to live happily ever after. It was to be God\u2019s euangellion, which is the Greek word for \u201cgospel good news.\u201d Our marriage, your marriage, my marriage, is to be on mission, and we get to bring the grace and the nature of God to all of those around us. How can every marriage be on mission? You can do that by just starting with the Art of Marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Saying, \u201cHey guys, let\u2019s come talk about\u2014we\u2019re struggling in our marriage; I don\u2019t know if you guys are. We\u2019ve got this video. We\u2019re going to watch it and have a conversation about it!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Invite some people over.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: It\u2019s that easy!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Watch God work.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: Have some food. I\u2019m just excited about what I think God is going to do through this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys are warriors for the Kingdom. Don\u2019t you feel so honored to be on this path with them?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, I do. I mean, I feel honored that we\u2019re part of Art of Marriage, because I know how God used it last time.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it\u2019s just so amazing, technology that God has given us that you never think somebody\u2019s going put something like that in their car and invite people over, or they\u2019re going to be invited over, and they\u2019re going to find Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And He\u2019s going to save their marriage, but He\u2019s, just as importantly, going to save a legacy, because it\u2019s going to be kids and grandkids.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: I was just talking to a guy, and they\u2019ve been leading Art of Marriage now for nine years, and they had 23 couples who were in this home, and they just got through the day; and 13 people came to Christ!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Let\u2019s go!<\/p>\n<p>Brian: You know?<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: What else is there?<\/p>\n<p>Brian: What did Dennis Rainey like to say? \u201cMarriage is one of the greatest Trojan horses for the gospel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Brian: People may not go to church, but they want their relationships to work.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: They may not come to Harris Creek, your church; but they might come to your kitchen, around your kitchen, around your living room, and talk about marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jonathan: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: What if God used you to bring your friends and neighbors to Christ? He can! Isn\u2019t that amazing? He wants to! An easy \u201cin\u201d with people is to help them in their marriages and relationships, and the Art of Marriage is the perfect resource to start those conversations that can lead someone into God\u2019s Kingdom of light. Let\u2019s do it! Let\u2019s do it together!<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today. You know, we\u2019ve been talking about the Art of Marriage all day today, and we hope you were able to join us last night for the Art of Marriage live preview event to learn why your marriage matters, because it does! If you missed it, Art of Marriage preorders are happening right now. You can go reserve your copy and get more amazing teaching from people like Jonathan Pokluda, Aaron and Jamie Ivy, Vivian Mabuni, and so much more.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to our link in the show notes to find out how to preorder your copy of the new Art of Marriage. Jonathan Pokluda has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don\u2019t Want to Do? This is a book that really helps you practice virtues. And they\u2019re not just something you do; it\u2019s something that\u2019s done in you, slowly but surely by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n<p>Whether you\u2019re 18 years old or you\u2019re 80 years old, it\u2019s never too late to redefine what\u2019s important to you and reclaim a life of virtue. This book is going to help you with that. It\u2019s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow on FamilyLife Today, I\u2019m going to be in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson. We\u2019re going to listen to portions of my conversation with my friend Brian who\u2019s been a fellow sufferer in life. It\u2019s going to be from my FamilyLife podcast, Real Life Loading. Did you know that I host a podcast for 18\u201320-year-olds? Yes, I do! I know you\u2019re already subscribed, but in case you aren\u2019t, you can find a link in the show notes to get easy access to Real Life Loading. We\u2019re going to talk about all of that tomorrow and so much more. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280405","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280405"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280405"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280405"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280405"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280405"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280405"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280405"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}