{"id":280385,"date":"2023-11-30T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-11-30T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/"},"modified":"2025-04-23T14:46:31","modified_gmt":"2025-04-23T18:46:31","slug":"blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/","title":{"rendered":"Blinding Suffering: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Whether you&#8217;re bowled over by cancer, chronic pain, or other blinding forms of suffering, even the next step can feel bleak. But the experience of Covenant College professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha has filled them with unspeakable hope and nearness to the God who suffers alongside us. Don&#8217;t miss this broadcast with the author of Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering, one of Christianity Today&#8217;s books of the year.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Whether you&#8217;re bowled over by cancer, chronic pain, or other blinding forms of suffering, even the next step can feel bleak. But the experience of Covenant College professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha has filled them with unspeakable hope and nearne&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_robots_follow":"","_seopress_robots_imageindex":"","_seopress_robots_snippet":"","_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_robots_breadcrumbs":"","_seopress_robots_freeze_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_custom_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_canonical":"","_seopress_social_fb_title":"","_seopress_social_fb_desc":"","_seopress_social_fb_img":"","_seopress_social_fb_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_height":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_title":"","_seopress_social_twitter_desc":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_height":0,"_seopress_redirections_value":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled_regex":"","_seopress_redirections_logged_status":"","_seopress_redirections_param":"","_seopress_redirections_type":0,"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_seopress_news_disabled":"","_seopress_video_disabled":"","_seopress_video":[],"_seopress_pro_schemas_manual":[],"_seopress_pro_rich_snippets_disable_all":"","_seopress_pro_rich_snippets_disable":[],"_seopress_pro_schemas":[],"inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b2a19b73-0c01-4559-9247-b154011d03fd\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:43","filesize":"25.40M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-11-30 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[8707],"cwp_profile":[9867,9911],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280385","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","podcast_series-embodied-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic","cwp_profile-kelly-kapic","cwp_profile-tabitha-kapic","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280385\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280385\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"hNotBhn9uq\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/\">Blinding Suffering: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/blinding-suffering-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/embed\/#?secret=hNotBhn9uq\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Blinding Suffering: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"hNotBhn9uq\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012918"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b2a19b73-0c01-4559-9247-b154011d03fd\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:27:43"],"filesize":["25.40M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-30.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Blinding Suffering<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kelly and Tabitha Kapic<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Embodied Hope (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 30, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Every day your pain and suffering try to be your identity. Now, it is going to shape your identity, but every day is fighting to not have that be your whole identity and to rather say, \u201cMy identity is in Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cYou are beloved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How does a person navigate suffering? The reason I ask you that is because when my little brother died of leukemia\u2014I was seven, he was five; you know this story\u2014but I didn\u2019t know it was unusual. We never one time talked about it in my family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You never talked about his death, suffering, or anything.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Never talked about it. I literally walked into the house and a priest was walking out. He said, \u201cYour brother just passed.\u201d There was never a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which is crazy, too, because there is not a listener or a person that will not experience suffering on this planet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, for sure. Kelly Kapic is with us; but even better, he\u2019s got his wife this time, Tabitha.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, especially Tabitha. You\u2019ve never been here before.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thank you. It\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about one of your books. How many have you written, Kelly?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: A few.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Come on, Tabitha. How many? Fifteen?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Written, edited, yes; it\u2019s above fifteen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re on number three, so we\u2019re rookies.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tell our listeners: what do you guys do?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I teach at Covenant College. I\u2019ve been teaching there since 2001, and I then write and speak and that kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I am Director of Innovation at the Chalmers Center at Covenant College.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The Chalmers Center helps the church and Christian non-profits to truly walk alongside the poor in poverty.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have two kids.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Jonathan and Margot.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Your book, Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering is something that\u2019s not just theological; it\u2019s personal, as well. You open the book with a story of your own marriage and your own suffering and your own life. Tell us that story.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Tabitha and I got married in 1993, lived in different places, and didn\u2019t have kids until 2002. Then in 2008, there were some things happening, and we discovered that she had cancer. Then she went through various surgeries, and about a year later was declared cancer-free.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We didn\u2019t know if it was cancer or not. I was down the mountain, off the mountain in Chattanooga getting groceries. As I\u2019m putting them in my car, it\u2019s starting to rain a little and my phone rings. It\u2019s the doctor, telling me it\u2019s cancer.<\/p>\n<p>I asked some follow-up questions, because I immediately knew I needed some information. I didn\u2019t want to call Kelly. The kids were three and five. It\u2019s a terrible feeling having the weight of knowing you\u2019re going to announce something so bad to your family.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I was up with kids and I, all of a sudden, \u2014I don\u2019t have these a lot\u2014I felt a panic. I tried to call Tabitha and nothing, nothing. Finally, I grabbed the kids and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to go.\u201d I threw them in their car seats and started driving down the mountain thinking, \u201cI\u2019m going to see her on the side of the road.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: You thought I had been in an accident.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I thought she\u2019d been in an accident.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You just had a bad feeling?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I just had this very bad feeling. As we\u2019re driving down the mountain, we see her driving up. She gives a little smile and points [as if to say]\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly and Tabitha: \u201cGo back up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: So, I went back up, and she didn\u2019t say anything at first.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I unloaded the groceries, just a little bit crying; [thinking], \u201cI\u2019ve got to keep it together.\u201d I had gotten pizza. When they got back, I said, \u201cI\u2019m fine,\u201d because I [thought], \u201cLet\u2019s just eat this meal, because it\u2019s not going to change the outcome.\u201d We ate. [I told the kids], \u201cYou guys get to watch videos.\u201d So, they went and watched, and I said, \u201cWell, it\u2019s cancer.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That started us on that difficult path with little, tiny kids and not really knowing. It was beautiful how our church family and Covenant College family all surrounded us. The kind of things that helped were interesting to me. One brought us flowers and maybe some fresh fruit, and there was an inchworm on one of the bouquets. I remember playing with that with the kids and being so comforted by something like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014by the inch worm?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, because it was life going on outside of what we were experiencing.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It brought joy.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It brought joy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: For the kids for a minute and a distraction from, probably, the pain possibly?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: At this point, the pain was acutely emotional.<\/p>\n<p>We watched The Sound of Music, I think, (the musical) before surgery day. I just tried to be normal with the kids. I think we might have set off some Roman candles, which is something I like to do.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That doesn\u2019t sound like you. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Then my mom came from California. The kids; I remember, we had picked out toys at our aquarium in Chattanooga, so that when they came to see me in the hospital, they got these things. Then my mom took them to California so that we could have recovery time.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I do remember being in the hospital and Grandma and a dear friend, I watched them walk across this bridge at the hospital. When I watched them walk away, I just lost it. Then I was in the hospital, she was asleep; and we had a pastor come, a dear friend. He came in and sat down. I tried to say something, and I was starting to lose it, so we [said], \u201cLet\u2019s go in another room.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Literally for about 25 minutes, every time I tried to say something, I couldn\u2019t. I just lost it. I was just bawling. He did great. Finally, he put his hand around me, hugged me, prayed for me, and then let me be. I needed him to show up and pray, but I really could not get it together.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: He didn\u2019t need you to, and he didn\u2019t need to say anything. That was important.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes; that\u2019s one of the things we learned\u2014just presence matters.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It makes me remember something I didn\u2019t handle well. I was trying to keep it together myself, walking through this, and I told him, which I regret, I said, \u201cKelly, I need you to keep it together. If you need to go break down with Jay\u2014\u201d his best friend, \u201c\u2014or someone else, that\u2019s fine. But I need you to keep it together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I wish I hadn\u2019t done that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why do you wish that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Because we were in this together. He had cancer, too.<\/p>\n<p>I still think, you still work to recover from that, because I got through the processing of cancer. I don\u2019t think you ever can process it, but I was done, and I felt like it took you so much longer. I think it\u2019s because, not only were you a watcher, which we came to learn is such a difficult role, but because you were [thinking], \u201cOkay, I have got to keep it together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you feel like you had to keep it together because she said that?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I don\u2019t know if that was a sign like \u201cOkay, she\u2019s carrying enough. She doesn\u2019t need me to lose it in front of her.\u201d But yes, that\u2019s an interesting complexity where, in marriage you value vulnerability\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014but there are times when you love one another by protecting one another. That can go sideways and be a problem, but friends were very important. Let\u2019s just say that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: When you said that Kelly was the watcher, when you said you were the watcher; what does that mean, Kelly?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: One of the difficult things that I\u2019ve experienced through this and learned and have heard from a lot of others is, we rightly focus on the victim\u2014the person who\u2019s going through these things\u2014and they are the center of it, but caregivers are in this very difficult space, whether they are caring for an elderly parent, a spouse, a child. It\u2019s not the same as the person going through these things, but they have leukemia; they have cancer. Not literally, but that has really made us pretty empathetic for those watchers, because no one is watching you in that sense, and the church tries to step up. But that\u2019s what we mean.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It has given us eyes to look for those people, the people who are beside the ones who are suffering or in pain, because they have a heavy load to bear.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to a married couple who is listening right now and maybe struggling with\u2014it could be cancer, it could be a different diagnosis. You\u2019ve walked through it as a married couple. What\u2019s your advice to a married couple? Either to the spouse that has cancer or the watcher?Kelly: For us, one of the big things\u2014we can circle around to this later with a different conversation\u2014but we do sometimes think the whole conversation needs to be about healing, physical healing. But actually, one of the things that we would say is one of the things about marriage, or just a deep friendship if you\u2019re single going through these things, is you\u2019re actually struggling with faith. You\u2019re struggling with, \u201cIs God good? Does God give a rip? Does He care? Is He absent or is He present? What is that like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I do think, in a marriage, as you are thinking about all that goes with cancer or whatever it is, you also are wrestling with your faith. I think you need to be there for one another, because sometimes the person who is suffering is actually the person who has the faith and the caregiver doesn\u2019t, and sometimes it\u2019s the opposite.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not always the caregiver who is strong. That\u2019s a misconception.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, and I would say, oftentimes, I hear from people going through cancer, specifically, being encouraged to fight and to be in the battle. There\u2019s a lot of encouragement to do that, and I never\u2014that did not resonate with me. I just wanted the doctors to do their job. I felt like\u2014I even wrote a poem about it. I felt like a battlefield over which a battle was being fought\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014your body was a battlefield, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014between cancer and doctors and medical professionals. I just felt like I had to submit to it. That was not a great feeling either; but I never was able to be comforted by that warrior language, because I knew I couldn\u2019t fight it.<\/p>\n<p>For me, the care of the church, because we couldn\u2019t pray very effectively. If anyone out there is going through the diagnosis part, this is the most chaotic, terrible space to be living in, because until you know what you\u2019re dealing with, it could be anything. It\u2019s almost impossible for your heart to live in that kind of condition in any healthy way.<\/p>\n<p>Supporting people through diagnosis\u2014I think that\u2019s a time, often, when we\u2019re not sharing with others, because we\u2019re waiting to find out what it is. I would push back on that to say, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this alone. Don\u2019t try. Find people to walk with you through that terrible part.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the waiting period.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The diagnosis part is so rough, and it can stretch out for a long time; years for some.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How did it affect\u2014you talked about it, Kelly\u2014the faith part? How did that\u2014and you write about it in your book\u2014the longing and the lament part?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Walk us into that valley a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s interesting to me; I\u2019m thankful that, in the last 10 to 15 years, evangelicals are finally starting to talk about lament, but it\u2019s not been an area that we\u2019ve been good about.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: We\u2019re very uncomfortable with this idea of asking God questions, crying out, and being frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why do you think we\u2019re uncomfortable with it?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Honestly, some of it\u2019s\u2014I think, in the evangelical world it\u2019s: \u201cHappy, clappy; upwards; onward; stronger; better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014in the Western world, certainly.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Even the language\u2014there\u2019s something to this fight of cancer. There\u2019s something true about that, and then there\u2019s something that\u2019s very painful that people haven\u2019t thought of, because when you\u2019re going through it, if it\u2019s not going well, then are you just not trying hard enough? Right? Some of that.<\/p>\n<p>The Psalms\u201440 percent of the Psalms\u2014are laments. They have questions like: \u201cMy God, my God, why have you forsaken me?\u201d which is pretty stunning, which listeners will realize: that\u2019s on the mouth of Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: He cries that lament. So, because our songs in corporate worship don\u2019t tend to\u2014we don\u2019t include laments. Imagine if 40 percent of the time in church, we\u2019re singing lament songs. But what happens is, they\u2019re not like that. So, when pain and suffering come to your home or to you as an individual, we don\u2019t have the spiritual muscles for it. We haven\u2019t developed those.<\/p>\n<p>People say, \u201cWhy should I sing a song of lament when I don\u2019t feel sad or when I\u2019m not as\u2014it\u2019s the same reason you praise God when you don\u2019t feel like you should praise God. There\u2019s something to that kind of thing. So, really learning what it means to lament; to ask God, \u201cWhere were You? Why do the wicked prosper?\u201d Those kinds of honest questions are all over in the Bible, but we\u2019re uncomfortable with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tabitha, what did it look like for you? to lament?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It felt more like survival. It was just surviving. Some of the things I said to God at those times. I remember I had a biopsy, so this is before we knew the diagnosis. I had this little roadster\u2014a Mazda Miata\u2014top down, driving the back of the mountain [on] this beautiful windy, ribbony road, but I laid on a rock, and I was watching the clouds go over. I said, \u201cHey, if You think I can\u2019t handle this, God, you are absolutely right.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cI can tell You right now: \u2018I cannot do this\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you always have your kids, three- and five-year-old, in your mind?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes. I had never felt so weak in my life. Just being so physically weak through that and through the surgeries and treatments. That, at the time, was something that I could not get comfortable with and cried out to God about. I didn\u2019t learn my lesson. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the lesson, actually, but you should explain because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes, what\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014in 2010, she had gotten through cancer and was declared cancer-free\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014by the end of \u201908, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014and we were [saying], \u201cPraise God. Okay, that was really hard. We had the relational, emotional; all this stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: -\u2014down in the valley.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, \u201cwe got through it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Then she called, and her leg wasn\u2019t working. Basically, in the summer of 2010 to this day, she deals with chronic pain and fatigue. That took six years to get a diagnosis from the Mayo Clinic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I read the diagnosis, but I can\u2019t even say the words.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Can we share the kind of cancer that you had?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, it was the rarest form of breast cancer that exists. Normally women who are in their 70\u2019s and 80\u2019s will get it. For me, I was in my 30\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What was the leg complication?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Do you remember the horrible earthquake in Haiti, in Port-au-Prince?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: My organization I was with at the time, Medair, is a humanitarian organization, and we responded in Haiti.<\/p>\n<p>Starting in January of that year, I was doing 14- to 16-hour days, trying to get people and supplies in and out of a destroyed country. Fast forward to May: I am downtown meeting with pastors, trying to beg these pastors to plant a church in this city where we were working, because there was no church in Jacmel, Haiti at the time.<\/p>\n<p>Then I met with someone from Liberia. I was trying to get her to be on my board, so that we could, you know, \u201cbe more effective.\u201d I\u2019m noticing the whole left side of my body is feeling weird; arm and leg. I\u2019m leaning through these talks. I thought, \u201cAm I having a stroke? What\u2019s happening?\u201d I just kept going through them, and it was growing all day.<\/p>\n<p>I got in my car, which was this little car with five-speed, and I\u2019m not able to use my limbs like normal. I went to text Kelly, and I had to think really hard to get my hands to do what I wanted them [to do]. I had shooting pains up one leg. I thought, \u201cHow am I going to press on this clutch?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I texted you [Kelly], \u201cI don\u2019t know how I\u2019m going to get home.\u201d I just figured it out, drove home, and, by the weekend, it had spread to the other side, and it has never stopped. We were in a diagnosis time then for six years that time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Here you were waiting again for six years.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I would say\u2014what would you say is worse, the chronic pain or the cancer?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I said this instantly that cancer was, for us, (because it was non-terminal) easier to walk through than\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014chronic pain.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It\u2019s been 13 years now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It\u2019s not going anywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: This morning, to get here, to be honest with you, it\u2019s been a hard morning.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Oh, yes. I can hear it in your voice\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, my voice is a little bit peppier usually.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: You look great, but the truth is\u2014part of what\u2019s interesting is she looks great and people would never know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019d never know.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Sometimes, I\u2019ll say, \u201cHow do you feel about that?\u201d because it frustrates me. She says, \u201cI don\u2019t want to look broken down,\u201d but she\u2019ll\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014I don\u2019t want to look how I feel.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014she\u2019ll get out of the car with a handicapped thing on, and people will look at her [as if to say], \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: All that to say, the chronic pain has been massive in terms of wrestling with God and thinking through this thing.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, much more challenging to my faith, challenging to the way we wanted to parent and do life together.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Tabitha was a hiking mom and all that, and then became the reading mom.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We would go get lost in the woods, the kids and I. All of a sudden, that just went away. That\u2019s how I thought I was going to raise my kids. We were going to be outdoors together. They just went without us, which is fine. [Laughter] But I became the reading and bed mom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: In your heart, you didn\u2019t want to be that mom. You felt like, \u201cThat\u2019s not who I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, I wanted to be that other mom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It was two years of intense\u2014that was when you were in bed the whole time. I mean, it\u2019s always been pain, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014yes, I was working with Medair still, but I did a lot of two years from bed. I knew there was this moment when I could turn my face to the wall and be done. I could get some doctor to give me some drugs and be out of here. I knew I didn\u2019t want that for my kids.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Because it would numb you to everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: There is a point at which, I think, you can\u2019t help but do that. I\u2019ve told Kelly, there have been times where I\u2019m just writhing in pain. Those still happen. That\u2019s a different kind of way to live.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How do you walk through that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Every day, your pain and suffering tries to be your identity. Now, it is going to shape your identity, but every day is fighting to not have that be your whole identity and to rather say, \u201cMy identity is in Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cYou are beloved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes. Sometimes, I just need people to speak kind words to me, because pain\u2014emotional pain and physical pain\u2014travel the same routes in our body; the same nerves.<\/p>\n<p>I think when you\u2019re in a lot of pain, you feel like you\u2019ve done something wrong, because it feels like a physical punishment. I think that people in chronic pain, which 25 percent of adults have some kind of chronic pain, there is a lot of pressure feeling like, \u201cThis is my fault; it\u2019s something I\u2019ve done. If I change my diet; change this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s a fight to hold onto, \u201cI\u2019m a person. God loves me. I can still do things. I can pray for people. I can write notes, or I can do whatever.\u201d But, yes, fighting for your identity apart from the pain you\u2019re feeling. It\u2019s a tough fight. It\u2019s going to be different for everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kelly and Tabitha Kapic on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>As someone who suffers from chronic pain myself\u2014I have chronic sciatic nerve pain because of degenerative disc disease, I really understand what Tabitha is talking about. In fact, I got emotional listening to her, because it\u2019s true. I really appreciate her words of empathy. I feel seen and cared for in something as simple as that. [I\u2019m] really, really grateful for her and for Kelly\u2019s ministry, as well.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly has written a book called Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering. In that book, Kelly helps us to understand suffering and how it can be turned into the image of Jesus, bringing us renewal and understanding, participating in our hope, which is our King Jesus. You can get a copy of Kelly\u2019s book, Embodied Hope, at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s always good to get perspective on why we do what we do. So, here\u2019s the President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, to help you and me with that:<\/p>\n<p>David: Isn\u2019t it interesting that when problems surface in our families, the enemy makes us believe that we are all alone. We think that we\u2019re the only ones with this problem.<\/p>\n<p>God never intended for us to walk our journey alone. God made us, He wired us, to live in community. At FamilyLife, we made it our mission to reassure families that you are not alone.<\/p>\n<p>As a result, for countless listeners around the world, FamilyLife Today has become a trusted companion. On every program, we invite you to sit at the table with Dave and Ann to engage in God-honoring conversations about the relationships that matter most to you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, as we finish another year together, I\u2019m asking you to come alongside FamilyLife in an all-out effort to reach more husbands and wives, sons, daughters, aunts and uncles, who sometimes feel alone in their journey. Gratefully, we\u2019ve received an incredible matching challenge, meaning that every dollar you give today will be automatically doubled in size, so now\u2019s the time to give to FamilyLife Today because right now, your year-end gift will stretch twice as far.<\/p>\n<p>In Hebrews, chapter 10, the writer says, \u201cAnd let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works\u2026encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.\u201d [Hebrews 10:24-25] The reality is the day is drawing near, so let me hear from you today. Let\u2019s do this together.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: When you partner with us financially in our ministry, every gift that you give between now and the end of the year is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to 2.5 million dollars.<\/p>\n<p>Every gift you give is going to be doubled between now and the end of the year. In addition to that, when you do give, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Trillia Newbell\u2019s book, Fifty-two Weeks in the Word, as our thank you for your generosity. Trillia was a guest earlier this week, and I\u2019m thrilled that this is going to be something that we send to you when you partner with us.<\/p>\n<p>Again, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like to. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now tomorrow, Kelly and Tabitha Kapic are going to be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to explore the theology of suffering, chronic pain, and finding our identity in Christ. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1745434029:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_5ec3e6778c8bb5d03ce0f20db6156317d3c8a15d":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_5ec3e6778c8bb5d03ce0f20db6156317d3c8a15d":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:71:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Blinding Suffering: Kelly & Tabitha Kapic\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280385;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your submission!\";s:22:\"customThankyouRedirect\";s:0:\"\";s:10:\"jetpackCRM\";b:1;s:9:\"className\";N;s:9:\"postToUrl\";N;s:14:\"salesforceData\";N;s:12:\"hiddenFields\";N;}"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/embodied-hope-a-theological-meditation-on-pain-and-suffering\">Embodied Hope<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bible.com\/organizations\/ee65449e-64bb-4576-b2c8-721099e91c55\">Fuel yourself with the truth of the bible with YouVersion<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2023-11-30 10:15:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/b2a19b73-0c01-4559-9247-b154011d03fd\/audio.mp3\n0\naudio\/mpeg\n"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-280385.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-280385.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1786592757;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",2560,2560,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret Coyle","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coyle-a9eb952f\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Whether you're bowled over by cancer, chronic pain, or other blinding forms of suffering, even the next step can feel bleak. But the experience of Covenant College professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha has filled them with unspeakable hope and nearne...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/embodied-hope-a-theological-meditation-on-pain-and-suffering\">Embodied Hope<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bible.com\/organizations\/ee65449e-64bb-4576-b2c8-721099e91c55\">Fuel yourself with the truth of the bible with YouVersion<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-11-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Blinding Suffering<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kelly and Tabitha Kapic<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Embodied Hope (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:November 30, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Every day your pain and suffering try to be your identity. Now, it is going to shape your identity, but every day is fighting to not have that be your whole identity and to rather say, \u201cMy identity is in Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cYou are beloved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How does a person navigate suffering? The reason I ask you that is because when my little brother died of leukemia\u2014I was seven, he was five; you know this story\u2014but I didn\u2019t know it was unusual. We never one time talked about it in my family.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You never talked about his death, suffering, or anything.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Never talked about it. I literally walked into the house and a priest was walking out. He said, \u201cYour brother just passed.\u201d There was never a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which is crazy, too, because there is not a listener or a person that will not experience suffering on this planet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, for sure. Kelly Kapic is with us; but even better, he\u2019s got his wife this time, Tabitha.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, especially Tabitha. You\u2019ve never been here before.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thank you. It\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about one of your books. How many have you written, Kelly?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: A few.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Come on, Tabitha. How many? Fifteen?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Written, edited, yes; it\u2019s above fifteen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re on number three, so we\u2019re rookies.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tell our listeners: what do you guys do?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I teach at Covenant College. I\u2019ve been teaching there since 2001, and I then write and speak and that kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I am Director of Innovation at the Chalmers Center at Covenant College.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The Chalmers Center helps the church and Christian non-profits to truly walk alongside the poor in poverty.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have two kids.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Jonathan and Margot.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Your book, Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering is something that\u2019s not just theological; it\u2019s personal, as well. You open the book with a story of your own marriage and your own suffering and your own life. Tell us that story.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Tabitha and I got married in 1993, lived in different places, and didn\u2019t have kids until 2002. Then in 2008, there were some things happening, and we discovered that she had cancer. Then she went through various surgeries, and about a year later was declared cancer-free.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We didn\u2019t know if it was cancer or not. I was down the mountain, off the mountain in Chattanooga getting groceries. As I\u2019m putting them in my car, it\u2019s starting to rain a little and my phone rings. It\u2019s the doctor, telling me it\u2019s cancer.<\/p>\n<p>I asked some follow-up questions, because I immediately knew I needed some information. I didn\u2019t want to call Kelly. The kids were three and five. It\u2019s a terrible feeling having the weight of knowing you\u2019re going to announce something so bad to your family.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I was up with kids and I, all of a sudden, \u2014I don\u2019t have these a lot\u2014I felt a panic. I tried to call Tabitha and nothing, nothing. Finally, I grabbed the kids and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to go.\u201d I threw them in their car seats and started driving down the mountain thinking, \u201cI\u2019m going to see her on the side of the road.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: You thought I had been in an accident.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I thought she\u2019d been in an accident.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You just had a bad feeling?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I just had this very bad feeling. As we\u2019re driving down the mountain, we see her driving up. She gives a little smile and points [as if to say]\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly and Tabitha: \u201cGo back up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: So, I went back up, and she didn\u2019t say anything at first.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I unloaded the groceries, just a little bit crying; [thinking], \u201cI\u2019ve got to keep it together.\u201d I had gotten pizza. When they got back, I said, \u201cI\u2019m fine,\u201d because I [thought], \u201cLet\u2019s just eat this meal, because it\u2019s not going to change the outcome.\u201d We ate. [I told the kids], \u201cYou guys get to watch videos.\u201d So, they went and watched, and I said, \u201cWell, it\u2019s cancer.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That started us on that difficult path with little, tiny kids and not really knowing. It was beautiful how our church family and Covenant College family all surrounded us. The kind of things that helped were interesting to me. One brought us flowers and maybe some fresh fruit, and there was an inchworm on one of the bouquets. I remember playing with that with the kids and being so comforted by something like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014by the inch worm?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, because it was life going on outside of what we were experiencing.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It brought joy.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It brought joy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: For the kids for a minute and a distraction from, probably, the pain possibly?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: At this point, the pain was acutely emotional.<\/p>\n<p>We watched The Sound of Music, I think, (the musical) before surgery day. I just tried to be normal with the kids. I think we might have set off some Roman candles, which is something I like to do.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That doesn\u2019t sound like you. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Then my mom came from California. The kids; I remember, we had picked out toys at our aquarium in Chattanooga, so that when they came to see me in the hospital, they got these things. Then my mom took them to California so that we could have recovery time.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I do remember being in the hospital and Grandma and a dear friend, I watched them walk across this bridge at the hospital. When I watched them walk away, I just lost it. Then I was in the hospital, she was asleep; and we had a pastor come, a dear friend. He came in and sat down. I tried to say something, and I was starting to lose it, so we [said], \u201cLet\u2019s go in another room.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Literally for about 25 minutes, every time I tried to say something, I couldn\u2019t. I just lost it. I was just bawling. He did great. Finally, he put his hand around me, hugged me, prayed for me, and then let me be. I needed him to show up and pray, but I really could not get it together.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: He didn\u2019t need you to, and he didn\u2019t need to say anything. That was important.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes; that\u2019s one of the things we learned\u2014just presence matters.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It makes me remember something I didn\u2019t handle well. I was trying to keep it together myself, walking through this, and I told him, which I regret, I said, \u201cKelly, I need you to keep it together. If you need to go break down with Jay\u2014\u201d his best friend, \u201c\u2014or someone else, that\u2019s fine. But I need you to keep it together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I wish I hadn\u2019t done that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why do you wish that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Because we were in this together. He had cancer, too.<\/p>\n<p>I still think, you still work to recover from that, because I got through the processing of cancer. I don\u2019t think you ever can process it, but I was done, and I felt like it took you so much longer. I think it\u2019s because, not only were you a watcher, which we came to learn is such a difficult role, but because you were [thinking], \u201cOkay, I have got to keep it together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you feel like you had to keep it together because she said that?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I don\u2019t know if that was a sign like \u201cOkay, she\u2019s carrying enough. She doesn\u2019t need me to lose it in front of her.\u201d But yes, that\u2019s an interesting complexity where, in marriage you value vulnerability\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014but there are times when you love one another by protecting one another. That can go sideways and be a problem, but friends were very important. Let\u2019s just say that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: When you said that Kelly was the watcher, when you said you were the watcher; what does that mean, Kelly?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: One of the difficult things that I\u2019ve experienced through this and learned and have heard from a lot of others is, we rightly focus on the victim\u2014the person who\u2019s going through these things\u2014and they are the center of it, but caregivers are in this very difficult space, whether they are caring for an elderly parent, a spouse, a child. It\u2019s not the same as the person going through these things, but they have leukemia; they have cancer. Not literally, but that has really made us pretty empathetic for those watchers, because no one is watching you in that sense, and the church tries to step up. But that\u2019s what we mean.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It has given us eyes to look for those people, the people who are beside the ones who are suffering or in pain, because they have a heavy load to bear.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to a married couple who is listening right now and maybe struggling with\u2014it could be cancer, it could be a different diagnosis. You\u2019ve walked through it as a married couple. What\u2019s your advice to a married couple? Either to the spouse that has cancer or the watcher?Kelly: For us, one of the big things\u2014we can circle around to this later with a different conversation\u2014but we do sometimes think the whole conversation needs to be about healing, physical healing. But actually, one of the things that we would say is one of the things about marriage, or just a deep friendship if you\u2019re single going through these things, is you\u2019re actually struggling with faith. You\u2019re struggling with, \u201cIs God good? Does God give a rip? Does He care? Is He absent or is He present? What is that like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I do think, in a marriage, as you are thinking about all that goes with cancer or whatever it is, you also are wrestling with your faith. I think you need to be there for one another, because sometimes the person who is suffering is actually the person who has the faith and the caregiver doesn\u2019t, and sometimes it\u2019s the opposite.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not always the caregiver who is strong. That\u2019s a misconception.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, and I would say, oftentimes, I hear from people going through cancer, specifically, being encouraged to fight and to be in the battle. There\u2019s a lot of encouragement to do that, and I never\u2014that did not resonate with me. I just wanted the doctors to do their job. I felt like\u2014I even wrote a poem about it. I felt like a battlefield over which a battle was being fought\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014your body was a battlefield, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014between cancer and doctors and medical professionals. I just felt like I had to submit to it. That was not a great feeling either; but I never was able to be comforted by that warrior language, because I knew I couldn\u2019t fight it.<\/p>\n<p>For me, the care of the church, because we couldn\u2019t pray very effectively. If anyone out there is going through the diagnosis part, this is the most chaotic, terrible space to be living in, because until you know what you\u2019re dealing with, it could be anything. It\u2019s almost impossible for your heart to live in that kind of condition in any healthy way.<\/p>\n<p>Supporting people through diagnosis\u2014I think that\u2019s a time, often, when we\u2019re not sharing with others, because we\u2019re waiting to find out what it is. I would push back on that to say, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this alone. Don\u2019t try. Find people to walk with you through that terrible part.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the waiting period.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The diagnosis part is so rough, and it can stretch out for a long time; years for some.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How did it affect\u2014you talked about it, Kelly\u2014the faith part? How did that\u2014and you write about it in your book\u2014the longing and the lament part?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Walk us into that valley a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s interesting to me; I\u2019m thankful that, in the last 10 to 15 years, evangelicals are finally starting to talk about lament, but it\u2019s not been an area that we\u2019ve been good about.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: We\u2019re very uncomfortable with this idea of asking God questions, crying out, and being frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why do you think we\u2019re uncomfortable with it?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Honestly, some of it\u2019s\u2014I think, in the evangelical world it\u2019s: \u201cHappy, clappy; upwards; onward; stronger; better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014in the Western world, certainly.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Even the language\u2014there\u2019s something to this fight of cancer. There\u2019s something true about that, and then there\u2019s something that\u2019s very painful that people haven\u2019t thought of, because when you\u2019re going through it, if it\u2019s not going well, then are you just not trying hard enough? Right? Some of that.<\/p>\n<p>The Psalms\u201440 percent of the Psalms\u2014are laments. They have questions like: \u201cMy God, my God, why have you forsaken me?\u201d which is pretty stunning, which listeners will realize: that\u2019s on the mouth of Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: He cries that lament. So, because our songs in corporate worship don\u2019t tend to\u2014we don\u2019t include laments. Imagine if 40 percent of the time in church, we\u2019re singing lament songs. But what happens is, they\u2019re not like that. So, when pain and suffering come to your home or to you as an individual, we don\u2019t have the spiritual muscles for it. We haven\u2019t developed those.<\/p>\n<p>People say, \u201cWhy should I sing a song of lament when I don\u2019t feel sad or when I\u2019m not as\u2014it\u2019s the same reason you praise God when you don\u2019t feel like you should praise God. There\u2019s something to that kind of thing. So, really learning what it means to lament; to ask God, \u201cWhere were You? Why do the wicked prosper?\u201d Those kinds of honest questions are all over in the Bible, but we\u2019re uncomfortable with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Tabitha, what did it look like for you? to lament?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It felt more like survival. It was just surviving. Some of the things I said to God at those times. I remember I had a biopsy, so this is before we knew the diagnosis. I had this little roadster\u2014a Mazda Miata\u2014top down, driving the back of the mountain [on] this beautiful windy, ribbony road, but I laid on a rock, and I was watching the clouds go over. I said, \u201cHey, if You think I can\u2019t handle this, God, you are absolutely right.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cI can tell You right now: \u2018I cannot do this\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you always have your kids, three- and five-year-old, in your mind?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes. I had never felt so weak in my life. Just being so physically weak through that and through the surgeries and treatments. That, at the time, was something that I could not get comfortable with and cried out to God about. I didn\u2019t learn my lesson. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the lesson, actually, but you should explain because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes, what\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014in 2010, she had gotten through cancer and was declared cancer-free\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014by the end of \u201908, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014and we were [saying], \u201cPraise God. Okay, that was really hard. We had the relational, emotional; all this stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: -\u2014down in the valley.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, \u201cwe got through it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Then she called, and her leg wasn\u2019t working. Basically, in the summer of 2010 to this day, she deals with chronic pain and fatigue. That took six years to get a diagnosis from the Mayo Clinic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I read the diagnosis, but I can\u2019t even say the words.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Can we share the kind of cancer that you had?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, it was the rarest form of breast cancer that exists. Normally women who are in their 70\u2019s and 80\u2019s will get it. For me, I was in my 30\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What was the leg complication?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Do you remember the horrible earthquake in Haiti, in Port-au-Prince?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: My organization I was with at the time, Medair, is a humanitarian organization, and we responded in Haiti.<\/p>\n<p>Starting in January of that year, I was doing 14- to 16-hour days, trying to get people and supplies in and out of a destroyed country. Fast forward to May: I am downtown meeting with pastors, trying to beg these pastors to plant a church in this city where we were working, because there was no church in Jacmel, Haiti at the time.<\/p>\n<p>Then I met with someone from Liberia. I was trying to get her to be on my board, so that we could, you know, \u201cbe more effective.\u201d I\u2019m noticing the whole left side of my body is feeling weird; arm and leg. I\u2019m leaning through these talks. I thought, \u201cAm I having a stroke? What\u2019s happening?\u201d I just kept going through them, and it was growing all day.<\/p>\n<p>I got in my car, which was this little car with five-speed, and I\u2019m not able to use my limbs like normal. I went to text Kelly, and I had to think really hard to get my hands to do what I wanted them [to do]. I had shooting pains up one leg. I thought, \u201cHow am I going to press on this clutch?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I texted you [Kelly], \u201cI don\u2019t know how I\u2019m going to get home.\u201d I just figured it out, drove home, and, by the weekend, it had spread to the other side, and it has never stopped. We were in a diagnosis time then for six years that time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Here you were waiting again for six years.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I would say\u2014what would you say is worse, the chronic pain or the cancer?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I said this instantly that cancer was, for us, (because it was non-terminal) easier to walk through than\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014chronic pain.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It\u2019s been 13 years now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: It\u2019s not going anywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: This morning, to get here, to be honest with you, it\u2019s been a hard morning.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Oh, yes. I can hear it in your voice\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, my voice is a little bit peppier usually.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: You look great, but the truth is\u2014part of what\u2019s interesting is she looks great and people would never know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019d never know.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Sometimes, I\u2019ll say, \u201cHow do you feel about that?\u201d because it frustrates me. She says, \u201cI don\u2019t want to look broken down,\u201d but she\u2019ll\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014I don\u2019t want to look how I feel.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014she\u2019ll get out of the car with a handicapped thing on, and people will look at her [as if to say], \u201cWhat are you doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: All that to say, the chronic pain has been massive in terms of wrestling with God and thinking through this thing.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, much more challenging to my faith, challenging to the way we wanted to parent and do life together.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Tabitha was a hiking mom and all that, and then became the reading mom.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: We would go get lost in the woods, the kids and I. All of a sudden, that just went away. That\u2019s how I thought I was going to raise my kids. We were going to be outdoors together. They just went without us, which is fine. [Laughter] But I became the reading and bed mom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: In your heart, you didn\u2019t want to be that mom. You felt like, \u201cThat\u2019s not who I am.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, I wanted to be that other mom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It was two years of intense\u2014that was when you were in bed the whole time. I mean, it\u2019s always been pain, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014yes, I was working with Medair still, but I did a lot of two years from bed. I knew there was this moment when I could turn my face to the wall and be done. I could get some doctor to give me some drugs and be out of here. I knew I didn\u2019t want that for my kids.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Because it would numb you to everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: There is a point at which, I think, you can\u2019t help but do that. I\u2019ve told Kelly, there have been times where I\u2019m just writhing in pain. Those still happen. That\u2019s a different kind of way to live.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How do you walk through that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Every day, your pain and suffering tries to be your identity. Now, it is going to shape your identity, but every day is fighting to not have that be your whole identity and to rather say, \u201cMy identity is in Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cYou are beloved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes. Sometimes, I just need people to speak kind words to me, because pain\u2014emotional pain and physical pain\u2014travel the same routes in our body; the same nerves.<\/p>\n<p>I think when you\u2019re in a lot of pain, you feel like you\u2019ve done something wrong, because it feels like a physical punishment. I think that people in chronic pain, which 25 percent of adults have some kind of chronic pain, there is a lot of pressure feeling like, \u201cThis is my fault; it\u2019s something I\u2019ve done. If I change my diet; change this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s a fight to hold onto, \u201cI\u2019m a person. God loves me. I can still do things. I can pray for people. I can write notes, or I can do whatever.\u201d But, yes, fighting for your identity apart from the pain you\u2019re feeling. It\u2019s a tough fight. It\u2019s going to be different for everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kelly and Tabitha Kapic on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>As someone who suffers from chronic pain myself\u2014I have chronic sciatic nerve pain because of degenerative disc disease, I really understand what Tabitha is talking about. In fact, I got emotional listening to her, because it\u2019s true. I really appreciate her words of empathy. I feel seen and cared for in something as simple as that. [I\u2019m] really, really grateful for her and for Kelly\u2019s ministry, as well.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly has written a book called Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering. In that book, Kelly helps us to understand suffering and how it can be turned into the image of Jesus, bringing us renewal and understanding, participating in our hope, which is our King Jesus. You can get a copy of Kelly\u2019s book, Embodied Hope, at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s always good to get perspective on why we do what we do. So, here\u2019s the President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, to help you and me with that:<\/p>\n<p>David: Isn\u2019t it interesting that when problems surface in our families, the enemy makes us believe that we are all alone. We think that we\u2019re the only ones with this problem.<\/p>\n<p>God never intended for us to walk our journey alone. God made us, He wired us, to live in community. At FamilyLife, we made it our mission to reassure families that you are not alone.<\/p>\n<p>As a result, for countless listeners around the world, FamilyLife Today has become a trusted companion. On every program, we invite you to sit at the table with Dave and Ann to engage in God-honoring conversations about the relationships that matter most to you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, as we finish another year together, I\u2019m asking you to come alongside FamilyLife in an all-out effort to reach more husbands and wives, sons, daughters, aunts and uncles, who sometimes feel alone in their journey. Gratefully, we\u2019ve received an incredible matching challenge, meaning that every dollar you give today will be automatically doubled in size, so now\u2019s the time to give to FamilyLife Today because right now, your year-end gift will stretch twice as far.<\/p>\n<p>In Hebrews, chapter 10, the writer says, \u201cAnd let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works\u2026encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.\u201d [Hebrews 10:24-25] The reality is the day is drawing near, so let me hear from you today. Let\u2019s do this together.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: When you partner with us financially in our ministry, every gift that you give between now and the end of the year is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to 2.5 million dollars.<\/p>\n<p>Every gift you give is going to be doubled between now and the end of the year. In addition to that, when you do give, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Trillia Newbell\u2019s book, Fifty-two Weeks in the Word, as our thank you for your generosity. Trillia was a guest earlier this week, and I\u2019m thrilled that this is going to be something that we send to you when you partner with us.<\/p>\n<p>Again, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like to. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now tomorrow, Kelly and Tabitha Kapic are going to be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to explore the theology of suffering, chronic pain, and finding our identity in Christ. That\u2019s tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280385","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280385"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280385"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280385"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280385"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280385"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280385"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280385"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}