{"id":280384,"date":"2023-12-01T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-12-01T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/"},"modified":"2025-04-23T14:47:03","modified_gmt":"2025-04-23T18:47:03","slug":"unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/","title":{"rendered":"Unspeakable Hope: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Drawing on his own family&#8217;s experience with prolonged physical pain, author and professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha reshape our understanding of suffering into the image of Jesus, and bring us to a renewed participation in our embodied hope. Don&#8217;t miss this conversation with the author of one of Christianity Today&#8217;s books of the year.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Drawing on his own family&#8217;s experience with prolonged physical pain, author and professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha reshape our understanding of suffering into the image of Jesus, and bring us to a renewed participation in our embodied hope. Don&#8217;t &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_robots_follow":"","_seopress_robots_imageindex":"","_seopress_robots_snippet":"","_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_robots_breadcrumbs":"","_seopress_robots_freeze_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_custom_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_canonical":"","_seopress_social_fb_title":"","_seopress_social_fb_desc":"","_seopress_social_fb_img":"","_seopress_social_fb_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_height":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_title":"","_seopress_social_twitter_desc":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_height":0,"_seopress_redirections_value":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled_regex":"","_seopress_redirections_logged_status":"","_seopress_redirections_param":"","_seopress_redirections_type":0,"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_seopress_news_disabled":"","_seopress_video_disabled":"","_seopress_video":[],"_seopress_pro_schemas_manual":[],"_seopress_pro_rich_snippets_disable_all":"","_seopress_pro_rich_snippets_disable":[],"_seopress_pro_schemas":[],"inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/46cc5606-372f-4d77-8000-b154011d00a8\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:26","filesize":"27.90M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-12-01 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2215],"podcast_series":[8707],"cwp_profile":[9867,9911],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280384","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-does-god-forgive-me","podcast_series-embodied-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic","cwp_profile-kelly-kapic","cwp_profile-tabitha-kapic","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280384\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280384\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"LFgkFu2mz9\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/\">Unspeakable Hope: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/unspeakable-hope-kelly-tabitha-kapic\/embed\/#?secret=LFgkFu2mz9\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Unspeakable Hope: Kelly &#038; Tabitha Kapic&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"LFgkFu2mz9\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012919"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/46cc5606-372f-4d77-8000-b154011d00a8\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:30:26"],"filesize":["27.90M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/embodied-hope-a-theological-meditation-on-pain-and-suffering\">Embodied Hope<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bible.com\/organizations\/ee65449e-64bb-4576-b2c8-721099e91c55\">Fuel yourself with the truth of the bible with YouVersion<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-12-01.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Unspeakable Hope<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kelly and Tabitha Kapic<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Embodied Hope (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:December 1, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Six years in, I got into a really bad place, where my name for God became \u201cthe God who could but does not.\u201d I just laid my head on the pillow at night, when I would normally just naturally start praying, and I didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know the important and famous phrase in the marriage vows. As a pastor, I\u2019ve done hundreds of weddings. Every time I have a couple repeat these vows, I think to myself\u2014married 43 years\u2014\u201cThey have no idea what they\u2019re saying.\u201d You know, \u201cFor better or for worse.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Every couple\u2014not every couple, but most couples\u2014thinks, \u201cThis is going to be better. There\u2019s going to be very little worse.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The other one: \u201c\u2026in sickness and in health.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right. They think it\u2019s going to be mostly health\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014until we get old, maybe. [Laughter] When we get really old, we might have a few health issues. But the reality is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014suffering is coming to every marriage in one way or another.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We started a conversation yesterday with a couple that\u2019s been through suffering and is still walking through suffering. Welcome back, Kelly and Tabitha Kapic, to FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s good to be with you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thanks so much.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Again, we\u2019re not going to give our audience your whole story again, but [you are] a professor of theological studies, right?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I teach at Covenant College.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re diving in a little bit to the theology of suffering. Your book, Embodied Hope, is a theological meditation on pain and suffering. But again, as we said yesterday, this isn\u2019t just a theological mind thing for you; this is real.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think it\u2019s doubly hard\u2014you tell me, because you walked through it\u2014when you think you\u2019ve gone through a valley and it\u2019s over; like you went through cancer, and you won.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, we\u2019re good now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Then you get\u2014I can\u2019t even say the word\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Undifferentiated Connective Tissue Disease is what that\u2019s called. [In] some people, that takes the form of MS, Lupus. You don\u2019t really cure those diseases; you learn to manage and live with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you. You had a cancer diagnosis. Then they said, \u201cYou\u2019re cancer-free.\u201d Which is harder to walk through, a diagnosis that\u2019s cancer that could be possibly healed, or something that will linger with you possibly for the rest of your life?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The cancer diagnosis just took a couple of months to get. Then they said, \u201cWe\u2019re going into surgery right now,\u201d so it was very quick. Chronic pain, as many people listening will know, takes many years often to diagnose properly. [There are] a lot of stories of fighting for your worth when you are seeing different doctors and specialists and poking and prodding. It is a hard road.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you feel like, \u201cI must be a crazy person, because they\u2019re not finding anything\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I got told that.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I was told, \u201cThe only thing we can do with you is refer you to a psychologist.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I [thought], \u201cOkay, I hear what you\u2019re saying, but I have a good support system; I have a good marriage.\u201d There are a lot of things that war against you. It\u2019s not just the physical pain.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Kelly, is this what made you write on this topic\u2014all of what you suffered?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, it did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because you suffer as a couple.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, for sure. Tabitha really was encouraging, because I don\u2019t know what I think until after I have to wrestle through it and write about it. [In] 2013-2014, she said, \u201cI think it\u2019s time for you to\u2014it will help you, and it will help others.\u201d It really was me working through my stuff and working through it with you, working through listening to you a lot, and listening to others in pain.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, it prompted you; because you wanted to understand what this looks like from God\u2019s perspective.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: To be honest, a lot of what I was reading was not helpful. A lot of Christian authors, when they deal with suffering, it becomes very philosophical and abstract. But it was amazing to me, in all these books from Christians writing about suffering, how little actually talked about Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>The fact that the eternal son of God takes on real human flesh and blood, and not just His death on the cross, but His whole life is entering into\u2014He\u2019s sinless but it is a sinful, broken world. He\u2019s experiencing pain and suffering, culminating in His death.<\/p>\n<p>Letting the life of Jesus reshape our understanding of what it means to be human and what it means to suffer was really helpful and surprising to me. Anyway, just concentrating on the solidarity of Jesus with us, that culminates on the cross, but His whole life, His weakness, was really helpful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Was that helpful for you, Tabitha, to look at the life of Jesus?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, I think there\u2019s\u2014that brings up a couple of thoughts. I remember being pregnant with my son, our first of two children. I am not good with needles. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s true!<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s like my thing, since I was a kid. I said, \u201cWhatever we have to do, just don\u2019t put the IV on me,\u201d because I shut down.<\/p>\n<p>We did natural childbirth. Not everyone gets the opportunity to be a mother through childbirth; but it felt very Christlike, this idea of facing a thing that you knew was going to hurt and be messy and bloody, but that there was life coming after it. I felt like that even taught me to relate to Jesus in a unique way that maybe people who haven\u2019t experienced having children, maybe don\u2019t have that\u2014that sort of pain and mess.<\/p>\n<p>Then cancer was another thing of experiencing that kind of physical weakness; relying on the church. I\u2019d say the big thing that, spiritually, I learned with cancer was, not that I was a fighter, but that the people around me were; and that the church and others prayed for us when we couldn\u2019t, and they read the Word for us when we couldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Chronic pain was a totally different thing. Six years in, I got into a really bad place where my name for God became \u201cThe God who could but does not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I couldn\u2019t get away from that title. I stopped praying. I just laid my head on the pillow at night, when I normally would just naturally start praying, and I didn\u2019t. It was dark, and I felt bad. [I was] married to a theologian, right? This whole faith thing; I knew how serious it was, and this was our whole life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t know where you were at that time, Kelly, but how does a spouse navigate that with their spouse?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It was dark. I had my own dark times. They didn\u2019t always correspond, thankfully. But I do think the reality is, in that time, there was a sense in which my role and the role of the church was to believe for Tabitha. What that looks like practically is, we pray when she couldn\u2019t pray.<\/p>\n<p>My understanding of faith became much more communal.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did you see that, too, Tabitha, when you were walking through that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Not at that time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You didn\u2019t feel shame though. There wasn\u2019t, \u201cGet your faith. God is good?\u201d Was there any of that?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Oh, I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Like he was trying to convince you?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: No, I think he was letting me lament. I didn\u2019t even know that that\u2019s what I was doing. I just\u2014it\u2019s not that I didn\u2019t believe in God. He just had this name that I gave Him.<\/p>\n<p>Two things I\u2019d mention about that time: It was his parents\u2019 50th wedding anniversary, and they wanted all their kids and grandkids to go to Alaska together. I remember, we got to do this whale-watching thing, which I love. It\u2019s incredible. That natural world, again, was a comfort to me because I thought, \u201cI might not be doing what I was created to do, but these whales are.\u201d There was something about that that was deeply comforting to me in physical pain; that the whole world isn\u2019t broken. There are still things doing what they\u2019re supposed to do.<\/p>\n<p>But the real turning point was in December of that dark year. Our pastor, Brian Salter\u2014who is still our pastor\u2014challenged the church to read through the whole Bible together that year, the next year coming up. I was [thinking], \u201cWell, it\u2019s worth a shot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I did that; and I have read through the Bible probably twice a year ever since. What that does is \u201cthe God who could but does not\u201d became the God who sees, the God who hears, the God who knows, the God who rescues. I need that constantly in my head. It\u2019s just like an IV drip to me of the God who sees, the God who hears, the God who knows, the God who rescues.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: One of the things that changed for me through this is the book of Job with suffering. The beginning and end of Job is what we focus on, but actually there are 30-something chapters where everyone is wrestling with each other and God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just read it. It\u2019s a long\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s a long\u2014and the fact\u2014and we ignore that. But that, first of all, tells you God gives a lot of space for the wrestling. But then the other thing is, God doesn\u2019t answer Job\u2019s questions, but He is present and absorbs them. But the \u201ca-ha\u201d moment was to realize \u201cGod doesn\u2019t answer Job for hundreds of years. God\u2019s answer to Job is that God in the Son becomes Job. Jesus is Job. Jesus is the One who takes on all of the lament; all of the suffering unto death.<\/p>\n<p>God\u2019s answer to Job isn\u2019t a sentence; it\u2019s a person who actually dies. That\u2019s that profound solidarity. Then He rises. So, He does really relate to us in our pain and suffering all the way into the grave, and then He rises, so there\u2019s hope.<\/p>\n<p>But it doesn\u2019t belittle our pain and suffering. It shows honor and solidarity with it, and then hope. But there is something to that that I think is very helpful: God\u2019s answer isn\u2019t a sentence; it\u2019s in a Person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One of our good friends, Jamie Winship, says that a lot of people in pain and suffering and hard times ask the \u201cWhy\u201d question\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014saying, \u201cWhy, God?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m not sure God ever answers the \u201cwhy\u201d question, but He will answer the question of, \u201cGod, what do You want me to know about this suffering?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Do you feel like God is giving you a glimpse of that, if you asked Him that, Tabitha: \u201cGod, what do you want me to know?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Take my pain away right now. I would be perfectly happy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Everybody would say that.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: But in terms of what I\u2019ve learned, when cancer came, we were in one of the hardest parts of our marriage, and I had a very international life and was burning the candle at all ends. I felt like that was kind of a rescue because I was never going to stop. But, yes, in terms of what I know, I feel like I know God more. That is precious, because I didn\u2019t sound like this 20 years ago. I\u2019ve changed and my family has changed.<\/p>\n<p>I remember we were in Lego Land when the kids were little. I couldn\u2019t hold their hands. They grabbed my hand, and I had to let it go because that hand was so hurt. I switched them. Sometimes I would hold a pinky with them. [It was] just awful, letting go of all those layers of what I thought our family would be. I love our family, but, man, our whole family was called to it. Your whole community gets called to these types of things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You mentioned yesterday a couple of things that I want to try to draw out again, because we didn\u2019t complete it; your identity not being in your pain and in your suffering, but being in Christ. What does that mean? How do you live that out?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Feeling good physically is not an idol. That\u2019s a good thing to want; that\u2019s how we were made. Being able to do good work; not an idol. God\u2019s a worker; He made us to work. Having whole families; not an idol. Now, we take everything and we twist good things a bit.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not saying that having an identity of a physically whole, not in-pain person, is wrong to want. That is fine to want; but I can\u2019t have that right now. It really does force you to say, \u201cOkay, elementally, at the very base, I am beloved.\u201d I struggle to believe that. I know it\u2019s true, but to believe it in the midst of our lives is really tough.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI belong to God.\u201d That one right there. I think all the time I act like I don\u2019t. For me, that\u2019s what I mean when I say, \u201cidentity in Christ\u201d; that I\u2019m His kid, I\u2019m beloved, I belong to Him, [and] He\u2019s for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Even when He doesn\u2019t take the pain away.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Even when.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I think we\u2019re constantly tempted to lie as Christians. The two main things I think we\u2019re tempted to lie about are, either to lie about how hard things are, and so, we sugar coat it. It can\u2019t be that hard. \u201cWe\u2019re going through cancer, but here are all these good things that happened!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not wrong, as a Christian, to tell the truth about how broken the world is. It\u2019s not wrong to say, \u201cThis is terrible.\u201d Sometimes\u2014I\u2019m a reformed theologian, if that means anything to some people in your audience\u2014we\u2019re talking about the sovereignty of God, but you read in the Bible that God is over all things. But that same Bible also has God saying, \u201cOh, this is bad. I wish that didn\u2019t happen,\u201d right? You have to hold these things together.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, you have to be able to say to God, \u201cThis is really bad! This hurts; this is terrible. Why?\u201d So, don\u2019t lie about how hard the world is. But the other side is then don\u2019t lie about how good God is, because God is actually good. His goodness is not dependent on what we\u2019re feeling at the particular moment. That\u2019s where, if you don\u2019t think about\u2014to circle the back door where we started; if you don\u2019t think about\u2014Jesus in this conversation, then you do think, \u201cThis form of abuse happened to me,\u201d or \u201cThis kind of cancer happened to me.\u201d What does God think about it? \u201cWell, He\u2019s just a mad scientist in the sky.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But if you want to know what God thinks about it, you look to Jesus on the cross, weeping and bleeding. That is what God thinks about your pain and suffering; that\u2019s what He thinks about the abuse you went through. He\u2019s not a mad scientist saying, \u201cLet\u2019s just see what\u2019s going to happen now.\u201d He is the God who goes into the fire with you. This still is a broken world. It\u2019s not glory yet.<\/p>\n<p>We live in light of both cross and resurrection, but pain and suffering are real, and we have to be honest about it, and honest about how good God is. The only way we can make sense of how good God is in light of the brokenness is looking at Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is such a rich viewpoint on that. In some ways, even as a pastor for 30-plus years, our tendency is to preach to the resurrection. We have a theology of victory.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We forget the cross. Not that we [really] forget it, because it\u2019s so critical to any preacher.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But we don\u2019t stay at the suffering at all. We try to move past it quickly to tell you, \u201cYou have victory in Christ,\u201d which is all true.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But one of the most beautiful things about Christ is the cross, the suffering, the pain that He experienced. He didn\u2019t just get victory. It was the \u201cJ-curve.\u201d As Paul Miller says, \u201cYou go down before up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>When you walk through what you\u2019re walking through, Tabitha, you\u2019ve got a Savior who did, right? So, it\u2019s both\/and.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: We were talking about this in class the other day. I was talking about the shame of the cross; biblically the language.<\/p>\n<p>It was interesting; the next time we got together\u2014I often [say], \u201cWhat did we talk about last time?\u201d It\u2019s interesting to hear. There was a girl in the back. She said, \u201cI\u2019ve never thought about the shame of the cross and His nakedness.\u201d You want to talk about vulnerability!<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: But it resonated with this person who has been through a lot of pain and suffering. You think, \u201cWait, that\u2019s the Son of God who has taken on shame\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201c\u2014for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, \u201cfor me!\u201d And \u201cidentified with me and for me in order to overcome it.\u201d But this is a God who\u2019s not embarrassed of us but has entered in in beautiful, beautiful ways; way better than we know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tabitha, you mentioned yesterday that you wrote a poem. Was it\u2014well, you have to read it to us, because I wonder if it was what we were just talking about? Is it not lying to God? \u201cI\u2019m not going to lie.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Okay, just to be real, I haven\u2019t read this in many years, so we don\u2019t know what we\u2019re going to get right now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You wrote it when you were in the midst of\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014cancer; when I was going through the treatments. Where we live, between Tennessee and Georgia, we\u2019re near one of the largest Civil War battle fields, Chickamauga Battlefield.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Oh, you have! Okay, so you can picture the rolling green fields and all the monuments.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s what this poem refers to.<\/p>\n<p>[Reading Poem]<\/p>\n<p>It could be pastureland, but it is not.<\/p>\n<p>Nothing moves, nothing grazes.<\/p>\n<p>Out of respect perhaps,<\/p>\n<p>There is only breeze and grass and hush.<\/p>\n<p>It is a battlefield.<\/p>\n<p>Years have seen tall grasses<\/p>\n<p>cover blood and mud and metal and wood,<\/p>\n<p>A subtle and complex cloak laid over violence and pain.<\/p>\n<p>It is a location, a plain on which things happened, unspeakable things.<\/p>\n<p>Things that should not be.<\/p>\n<p>It was not always what it became.<\/p>\n<p>It had been a forest or a meadow.<\/p>\n<p>A simple stream or hilltop of some other name, some other purpose.<\/p>\n<p>But then forces met for hard impenetrable reasons.<\/p>\n<p>It made no choice; it was only there,<\/p>\n<p>yet its involvement was nonetheless intimate.<\/p>\n<p>How did it hold both enemy and friend?<\/p>\n<p>Afterwards, quiet.<\/p>\n<p>Years heal and cover with verdant grasses<\/p>\n<p>places that embraced desperate human struggle and death.<\/p>\n<p>It has the look of peace, but it can never be what it was before.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you think when you read it now?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I think I\u2019m talking about myself when it says, \u201cIt was not always what it became.\u201d I am very changed by all the years of pain, and so are many people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m going to say as I look at you, there\u2019s a depth of love, of knowing\u2014you know now the good, the hard, the beautiful, the ugly, and you are beautiful in every way. There\u2019s also such a beautiful realness that\u2019s like a cloak has been taken off, and what I see is the beauty in the midst of pain.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for sharing that with us.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kelly and Tabitha Kapic on FamilyLife Today. That\u2019s such wonderful encouragement from Ann. I felt like she was talking to me in that moment as she was talking to Tabitha.<\/p>\n<p>If only we could speak words of life and encouragement to the people in our lives who are suffering, what kind of relationships would be formed and how much love could a sufferers see when we do? A love not only from you, but from God. That\u2019s God\u2019s love coming through you to other people.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly Kapic has written a book called Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering. You can get a copy of that at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the show notes there to get a copy.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve got two kids in both middle and elementary school and, apparently, Dave and Ann Wilson feel for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know about you, but I am glad I\u2019m not parenting kids today. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>We have kids, but they\u2019re not young.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve said that many times. It\u2019s scary. We thought it was scary 40 years ago. I think it\u2019s 10 times harder today. We have a generation walking away from their faith. We raised them in the church, we raised them to believe, and then they hit teenage years and beyond, and they walk away in numbers.<\/p>\n<p>You talk about scary. Parents are petrified right now: \u201cHow do we help our kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you feeling this as I am today? The urgency to get biblical principles and help to our families? Because this is what we\u2019re about. We have faithful givers that gave 40 years ago because we thought, \u201cThis is so important.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s even more important now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We cannot lose this battle.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Every day we get to speak life and the Word of God. We get to bring Jesus to your family and bring hope to give you practical tools to help your kids and our kids be strong adults for Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>That doesn\u2019t happen without you joining us in prayer and joining us as a financial partner. I know everybody\u2019s asking for money at this time of the year. We are saying, \u201cHelp us not lose this battle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cLet\u2019s win! And help us keep bringing life and the Word of God to your family, so you can win, and your family can win.\u201d Join us today. Your dollar will be doubled! And this is a battle we will not lose. You can help us win it.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com right now to make a gift.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Join us in this battle. It matters.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, that\u2019s right, Ann. In addition to that, when you give, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Trillia Newbell\u2019s book, 52 Weeks in the Word, as our \u201cthank you\u201d for your generosity.<\/p>\n<p>Again, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6328. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you would like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>I want to ask you to pray for all the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening all throughout the country starting today, on into Sunday; places like Little Rock and Charleston. With over 40 events across the country still happening between now and the spring, there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, Lysa TerKeurst is going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about good boundaries and the importance of setting up boundaries in various aspects of life. That\u2019s next week. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1745434024:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_1902b8da29e55be7ca2bcff94cd618147fc202cb":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_1902b8da29e55be7ca2bcff94cd618147fc202cb":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:69:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Unspeakable Hope: Kelly & Tabitha Kapic\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280384;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1786571159;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",2560,2560,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret Coyle","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coyle-a9eb952f\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Drawing on his own family's experience with prolonged physical pain, author and professor Kelly Kapic and his wife Tabitha reshape our understanding of suffering into the image of Jesus, and bring us to a renewed participation in our embodied hope. Don't ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/embodied-hope-a-theological-meditation-on-pain-and-suffering\">Embodied Hope<\/a> on our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bible.com\/organizations\/ee65449e-64bb-4576-b2c8-721099e91c55\">Fuel yourself with the truth of the bible with YouVersion<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-12-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Unspeakable Hope<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Kelly and Tabitha Kapic<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Embodied Hope (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:December 1, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Six years in, I got into a really bad place, where my name for God became \u201cthe God who could but does not.\u201d I just laid my head on the pillow at night, when I would normally just naturally start praying, and I didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You know the important and famous phrase in the marriage vows. As a pastor, I\u2019ve done hundreds of weddings. Every time I have a couple repeat these vows, I think to myself\u2014married 43 years\u2014\u201cThey have no idea what they\u2019re saying.\u201d You know, \u201cFor better or for worse.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Every couple\u2014not every couple, but most couples\u2014thinks, \u201cThis is going to be better. There\u2019s going to be very little worse.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The other one: \u201c\u2026in sickness and in health.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right. They think it\u2019s going to be mostly health\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014until we get old, maybe. [Laughter] When we get really old, we might have a few health issues. But the reality is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014suffering is coming to every marriage in one way or another.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We started a conversation yesterday with a couple that\u2019s been through suffering and is still walking through suffering. Welcome back, Kelly and Tabitha Kapic, to FamilyLife.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s good to be with you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thanks so much.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Again, we\u2019re not going to give our audience your whole story again, but [you are] a professor of theological studies, right?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I teach at Covenant College.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re diving in a little bit to the theology of suffering. Your book, Embodied Hope, is a theological meditation on pain and suffering. But again, as we said yesterday, this isn\u2019t just a theological mind thing for you; this is real.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think it\u2019s doubly hard\u2014you tell me, because you walked through it\u2014when you think you\u2019ve gone through a valley and it\u2019s over; like you went through cancer, and you won.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, we\u2019re good now.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Then you get\u2014I can\u2019t even say the word\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Undifferentiated Connective Tissue Disease is what that\u2019s called. [In] some people, that takes the form of MS, Lupus. You don\u2019t really cure those diseases; you learn to manage and live with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you. You had a cancer diagnosis. Then they said, \u201cYou\u2019re cancer-free.\u201d Which is harder to walk through, a diagnosis that\u2019s cancer that could be possibly healed, or something that will linger with you possibly for the rest of your life?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: The cancer diagnosis just took a couple of months to get. Then they said, \u201cWe\u2019re going into surgery right now,\u201d so it was very quick. Chronic pain, as many people listening will know, takes many years often to diagnose properly. [There are] a lot of stories of fighting for your worth when you are seeing different doctors and specialists and poking and prodding. It is a hard road.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you feel like, \u201cI must be a crazy person, because they\u2019re not finding anything\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I got told that.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I was told, \u201cThe only thing we can do with you is refer you to a psychologist.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I [thought], \u201cOkay, I hear what you\u2019re saying, but I have a good support system; I have a good marriage.\u201d There are a lot of things that war against you. It\u2019s not just the physical pain.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Kelly, is this what made you write on this topic\u2014all of what you suffered?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, it did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because you suffer as a couple.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, for sure. Tabitha really was encouraging, because I don\u2019t know what I think until after I have to wrestle through it and write about it. [In] 2013-2014, she said, \u201cI think it\u2019s time for you to\u2014it will help you, and it will help others.\u201d It really was me working through my stuff and working through it with you, working through listening to you a lot, and listening to others in pain.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, it prompted you; because you wanted to understand what this looks like from God\u2019s perspective.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: To be honest, a lot of what I was reading was not helpful. A lot of Christian authors, when they deal with suffering, it becomes very philosophical and abstract. But it was amazing to me, in all these books from Christians writing about suffering, how little actually talked about Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>The fact that the eternal son of God takes on real human flesh and blood, and not just His death on the cross, but His whole life is entering into\u2014He\u2019s sinless but it is a sinful, broken world. He\u2019s experiencing pain and suffering, culminating in His death.<\/p>\n<p>Letting the life of Jesus reshape our understanding of what it means to be human and what it means to suffer was really helpful and surprising to me. Anyway, just concentrating on the solidarity of Jesus with us, that culminates on the cross, but His whole life, His weakness, was really helpful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Was that helpful for you, Tabitha, to look at the life of Jesus?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Yes, I think there\u2019s\u2014that brings up a couple of thoughts. I remember being pregnant with my son, our first of two children. I am not good with needles. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s true!<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s like my thing, since I was a kid. I said, \u201cWhatever we have to do, just don\u2019t put the IV on me,\u201d because I shut down.<\/p>\n<p>We did natural childbirth. Not everyone gets the opportunity to be a mother through childbirth; but it felt very Christlike, this idea of facing a thing that you knew was going to hurt and be messy and bloody, but that there was life coming after it. I felt like that even taught me to relate to Jesus in a unique way that maybe people who haven\u2019t experienced having children, maybe don\u2019t have that\u2014that sort of pain and mess.<\/p>\n<p>Then cancer was another thing of experiencing that kind of physical weakness; relying on the church. I\u2019d say the big thing that, spiritually, I learned with cancer was, not that I was a fighter, but that the people around me were; and that the church and others prayed for us when we couldn\u2019t, and they read the Word for us when we couldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Chronic pain was a totally different thing. Six years in, I got into a really bad place where my name for God became \u201cThe God who could but does not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I couldn\u2019t get away from that title. I stopped praying. I just laid my head on the pillow at night, when I normally would just naturally start praying, and I didn\u2019t. It was dark, and I felt bad. [I was] married to a theologian, right? This whole faith thing; I knew how serious it was, and this was our whole life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t know where you were at that time, Kelly, but how does a spouse navigate that with their spouse?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It was dark. I had my own dark times. They didn\u2019t always correspond, thankfully. But I do think the reality is, in that time, there was a sense in which my role and the role of the church was to believe for Tabitha. What that looks like practically is, we pray when she couldn\u2019t pray.<\/p>\n<p>My understanding of faith became much more communal.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did you see that, too, Tabitha, when you were walking through that?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Not at that time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You didn\u2019t feel shame though. There wasn\u2019t, \u201cGet your faith. God is good?\u201d Was there any of that?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Oh, I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Like he was trying to convince you?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: No, I think he was letting me lament. I didn\u2019t even know that that\u2019s what I was doing. I just\u2014it\u2019s not that I didn\u2019t believe in God. He just had this name that I gave Him.<\/p>\n<p>Two things I\u2019d mention about that time: It was his parents\u2019 50th wedding anniversary, and they wanted all their kids and grandkids to go to Alaska together. I remember, we got to do this whale-watching thing, which I love. It\u2019s incredible. That natural world, again, was a comfort to me because I thought, \u201cI might not be doing what I was created to do, but these whales are.\u201d There was something about that that was deeply comforting to me in physical pain; that the whole world isn\u2019t broken. There are still things doing what they\u2019re supposed to do.<\/p>\n<p>But the real turning point was in December of that dark year. Our pastor, Brian Salter\u2014who is still our pastor\u2014challenged the church to read through the whole Bible together that year, the next year coming up. I was [thinking], \u201cWell, it\u2019s worth a shot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I did that; and I have read through the Bible probably twice a year ever since. What that does is \u201cthe God who could but does not\u201d became the God who sees, the God who hears, the God who knows, the God who rescues. I need that constantly in my head. It\u2019s just like an IV drip to me of the God who sees, the God who hears, the God who knows, the God who rescues.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: One of the things that changed for me through this is the book of Job with suffering. The beginning and end of Job is what we focus on, but actually there are 30-something chapters where everyone is wrestling with each other and God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just read it. It\u2019s a long\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It\u2019s a long\u2014and the fact\u2014and we ignore that. But that, first of all, tells you God gives a lot of space for the wrestling. But then the other thing is, God doesn\u2019t answer Job\u2019s questions, but He is present and absorbs them. But the \u201ca-ha\u201d moment was to realize \u201cGod doesn\u2019t answer Job for hundreds of years. God\u2019s answer to Job is that God in the Son becomes Job. Jesus is Job. Jesus is the One who takes on all of the lament; all of the suffering unto death.<\/p>\n<p>God\u2019s answer to Job isn\u2019t a sentence; it\u2019s a person who actually dies. That\u2019s that profound solidarity. Then He rises. So, He does really relate to us in our pain and suffering all the way into the grave, and then He rises, so there\u2019s hope.<\/p>\n<p>But it doesn\u2019t belittle our pain and suffering. It shows honor and solidarity with it, and then hope. But there is something to that that I think is very helpful: God\u2019s answer isn\u2019t a sentence; it\u2019s in a Person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One of our good friends, Jamie Winship, says that a lot of people in pain and suffering and hard times ask the \u201cWhy\u201d question\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014saying, \u201cWhy, God?\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m not sure God ever answers the \u201cwhy\u201d question, but He will answer the question of, \u201cGod, what do You want me to know about this suffering?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Do you feel like God is giving you a glimpse of that, if you asked Him that, Tabitha: \u201cGod, what do you want me to know?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Take my pain away right now. I would be perfectly happy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Everybody would say that.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: But in terms of what I\u2019ve learned, when cancer came, we were in one of the hardest parts of our marriage, and I had a very international life and was burning the candle at all ends. I felt like that was kind of a rescue because I was never going to stop. But, yes, in terms of what I know, I feel like I know God more. That is precious, because I didn\u2019t sound like this 20 years ago. I\u2019ve changed and my family has changed.<\/p>\n<p>I remember we were in Lego Land when the kids were little. I couldn\u2019t hold their hands. They grabbed my hand, and I had to let it go because that hand was so hurt. I switched them. Sometimes I would hold a pinky with them. [It was] just awful, letting go of all those layers of what I thought our family would be. I love our family, but, man, our whole family was called to it. Your whole community gets called to these types of things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You mentioned yesterday a couple of things that I want to try to draw out again, because we didn\u2019t complete it; your identity not being in your pain and in your suffering, but being in Christ. What does that mean? How do you live that out?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Feeling good physically is not an idol. That\u2019s a good thing to want; that\u2019s how we were made. Being able to do good work; not an idol. God\u2019s a worker; He made us to work. Having whole families; not an idol. Now, we take everything and we twist good things a bit.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not saying that having an identity of a physically whole, not in-pain person, is wrong to want. That is fine to want; but I can\u2019t have that right now. It really does force you to say, \u201cOkay, elementally, at the very base, I am beloved.\u201d I struggle to believe that. I know it\u2019s true, but to believe it in the midst of our lives is really tough.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI belong to God.\u201d That one right there. I think all the time I act like I don\u2019t. For me, that\u2019s what I mean when I say, \u201cidentity in Christ\u201d; that I\u2019m His kid, I\u2019m beloved, I belong to Him, [and] He\u2019s for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Even when He doesn\u2019t take the pain away.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Even when.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I think we\u2019re constantly tempted to lie as Christians. The two main things I think we\u2019re tempted to lie about are, either to lie about how hard things are, and so, we sugar coat it. It can\u2019t be that hard. \u201cWe\u2019re going through cancer, but here are all these good things that happened!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not wrong, as a Christian, to tell the truth about how broken the world is. It\u2019s not wrong to say, \u201cThis is terrible.\u201d Sometimes\u2014I\u2019m a reformed theologian, if that means anything to some people in your audience\u2014we\u2019re talking about the sovereignty of God, but you read in the Bible that God is over all things. But that same Bible also has God saying, \u201cOh, this is bad. I wish that didn\u2019t happen,\u201d right? You have to hold these things together.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, you have to be able to say to God, \u201cThis is really bad! This hurts; this is terrible. Why?\u201d So, don\u2019t lie about how hard the world is. But the other side is then don\u2019t lie about how good God is, because God is actually good. His goodness is not dependent on what we\u2019re feeling at the particular moment. That\u2019s where, if you don\u2019t think about\u2014to circle the back door where we started; if you don\u2019t think about\u2014Jesus in this conversation, then you do think, \u201cThis form of abuse happened to me,\u201d or \u201cThis kind of cancer happened to me.\u201d What does God think about it? \u201cWell, He\u2019s just a mad scientist in the sky.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But if you want to know what God thinks about it, you look to Jesus on the cross, weeping and bleeding. That is what God thinks about your pain and suffering; that\u2019s what He thinks about the abuse you went through. He\u2019s not a mad scientist saying, \u201cLet\u2019s just see what\u2019s going to happen now.\u201d He is the God who goes into the fire with you. This still is a broken world. It\u2019s not glory yet.<\/p>\n<p>We live in light of both cross and resurrection, but pain and suffering are real, and we have to be honest about it, and honest about how good God is. The only way we can make sense of how good God is in light of the brokenness is looking at Christ.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is such a rich viewpoint on that. In some ways, even as a pastor for 30-plus years, our tendency is to preach to the resurrection. We have a theology of victory.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We forget the cross. Not that we [really] forget it, because it\u2019s so critical to any preacher.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But we don\u2019t stay at the suffering at all. We try to move past it quickly to tell you, \u201cYou have victory in Christ,\u201d which is all true.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But one of the most beautiful things about Christ is the cross, the suffering, the pain that He experienced. He didn\u2019t just get victory. It was the \u201cJ-curve.\u201d As Paul Miller says, \u201cYou go down before up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>When you walk through what you\u2019re walking through, Tabitha, you\u2019ve got a Savior who did, right? So, it\u2019s both\/and.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: We were talking about this in class the other day. I was talking about the shame of the cross; biblically the language.<\/p>\n<p>It was interesting; the next time we got together\u2014I often [say], \u201cWhat did we talk about last time?\u201d It\u2019s interesting to hear. There was a girl in the back. She said, \u201cI\u2019ve never thought about the shame of the cross and His nakedness.\u201d You want to talk about vulnerability!<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: But it resonated with this person who has been through a lot of pain and suffering. You think, \u201cWait, that\u2019s the Son of God who has taken on shame\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201c\u2014for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, \u201cfor me!\u201d And \u201cidentified with me and for me in order to overcome it.\u201d But this is a God who\u2019s not embarrassed of us but has entered in in beautiful, beautiful ways; way better than we know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tabitha, you mentioned yesterday that you wrote a poem. Was it\u2014well, you have to read it to us, because I wonder if it was what we were just talking about? Is it not lying to God? \u201cI\u2019m not going to lie.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Okay, just to be real, I haven\u2019t read this in many years, so we don\u2019t know what we\u2019re going to get right now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You wrote it when you were in the midst of\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: \u2014cancer; when I was going through the treatments. Where we live, between Tennessee and Georgia, we\u2019re near one of the largest Civil War battle fields, Chickamauga Battlefield.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve been there.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Oh, you have! Okay, so you can picture the rolling green fields and all the monuments.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: That\u2019s what this poem refers to.<\/p>\n<p>[Reading Poem]<\/p>\n<p>It could be pastureland, but it is not.<\/p>\n<p>Nothing moves, nothing grazes.<\/p>\n<p>Out of respect perhaps,<\/p>\n<p>There is only breeze and grass and hush.<\/p>\n<p>It is a battlefield.<\/p>\n<p>Years have seen tall grasses<\/p>\n<p>cover blood and mud and metal and wood,<\/p>\n<p>A subtle and complex cloak laid over violence and pain.<\/p>\n<p>It is a location, a plain on which things happened, unspeakable things.<\/p>\n<p>Things that should not be.<\/p>\n<p>It was not always what it became.<\/p>\n<p>It had been a forest or a meadow.<\/p>\n<p>A simple stream or hilltop of some other name, some other purpose.<\/p>\n<p>But then forces met for hard impenetrable reasons.<\/p>\n<p>It made no choice; it was only there,<\/p>\n<p>yet its involvement was nonetheless intimate.<\/p>\n<p>How did it hold both enemy and friend?<\/p>\n<p>Afterwards, quiet.<\/p>\n<p>Years heal and cover with verdant grasses<\/p>\n<p>places that embraced desperate human struggle and death.<\/p>\n<p>It has the look of peace, but it can never be what it was before.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you think when you read it now?<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: I think I\u2019m talking about myself when it says, \u201cIt was not always what it became.\u201d I am very changed by all the years of pain, and so are many people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m going to say as I look at you, there\u2019s a depth of love, of knowing\u2014you know now the good, the hard, the beautiful, the ugly, and you are beautiful in every way. There\u2019s also such a beautiful realness that\u2019s like a cloak has been taken off, and what I see is the beauty in the midst of pain.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for sharing that with us.<\/p>\n<p>Tabitha: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kelly and Tabitha Kapic on FamilyLife Today. That\u2019s such wonderful encouragement from Ann. I felt like she was talking to me in that moment as she was talking to Tabitha.<\/p>\n<p>If only we could speak words of life and encouragement to the people in our lives who are suffering, what kind of relationships would be formed and how much love could a sufferers see when we do? A love not only from you, but from God. That\u2019s God\u2019s love coming through you to other people.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly Kapic has written a book called Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering. You can get a copy of that at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the show notes there to get a copy.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve got two kids in both middle and elementary school and, apparently, Dave and Ann Wilson feel for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know about you, but I am glad I\u2019m not parenting kids today. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>We have kids, but they\u2019re not young.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019ve said that many times. It\u2019s scary. We thought it was scary 40 years ago. I think it\u2019s 10 times harder today. We have a generation walking away from their faith. We raised them in the church, we raised them to believe, and then they hit teenage years and beyond, and they walk away in numbers.<\/p>\n<p>You talk about scary. Parents are petrified right now: \u201cHow do we help our kids?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you feeling this as I am today? The urgency to get biblical principles and help to our families? Because this is what we\u2019re about. We have faithful givers that gave 40 years ago because we thought, \u201cThis is so important.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s even more important now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We cannot lose this battle.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Every day we get to speak life and the Word of God. We get to bring Jesus to your family and bring hope to give you practical tools to help your kids and our kids be strong adults for Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>That doesn\u2019t happen without you joining us in prayer and joining us as a financial partner. I know everybody\u2019s asking for money at this time of the year. We are saying, \u201cHelp us not lose this battle.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cLet\u2019s win! And help us keep bringing life and the Word of God to your family, so you can win, and your family can win.\u201d Join us today. Your dollar will be doubled! And this is a battle we will not lose. You can help us win it.<\/p>\n<p>You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com right now to make a gift.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Join us in this battle. It matters.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Yes, that\u2019s right, Ann. In addition to that, when you give, we\u2019re going to send you a copy of Trillia Newbell\u2019s book, 52 Weeks in the Word, as our \u201cthank you\u201d for your generosity.<\/p>\n<p>Again, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6328. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you would like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>I want to ask you to pray for all the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening all throughout the country starting today, on into Sunday; places like Little Rock and Charleston. With over 40 events across the country still happening between now and the spring, there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, Lysa TerKeurst is going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about good boundaries and the importance of setting up boundaries in various aspects of life. That\u2019s next week. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280384","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280384"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280384"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280384"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280384"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280384"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280384"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280384"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}