{"id":280377,"date":"2023-12-12T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-12-12T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson\/"},"modified":"2025-04-16T16:54:35","modified_gmt":"2025-04-16T20:54:35","slug":"fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson\/","title":{"rendered":"Fatherhood has Second Chances: Jon Tyson"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>It&#8217;s not enough to hope our sons will become good men. We need them to be good at being men. Discover the influence you have on your family through second chances. Join Author Jon Tyson as he dives into how your habits and wounds shape your sons. Learn why it&#8217;s critical to bring in the right people to fill the gaps you can&#8217;t.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>It&#8217;s not enough to hope our sons will become good men. We need them to be good at being men. Discover the influence you have on your family through second chances. Join Author Jon Tyson as he dives into how your habits and wounds shape your sons. Learn wh&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c61c05f0-5018-41c7-b3a3-b154011ceb25\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:33","filesize":"23.43M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-12-12 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2208],"podcast_series":[8711],"cwp_profile":[9763],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280377","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-second-chances","podcast_series-the-intentional-father-jon-tyson","cwp_profile-jon-tyson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280377\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280377\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"H3k5I9fuKt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson\/\">Fatherhood has Second Chances: Jon Tyson<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fatherhood-has-second-chances-jon-tyson\/embed\/#?secret=H3k5I9fuKt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Fatherhood has Second Chances: Jon Tyson&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"H3k5I9fuKt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012899"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c61c05f0-5018-41c7-b3a3-b154011ceb25\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:25:33"],"filesize":["23.43M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jon Tyson at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.church.nyc\/\">church.nyc<\/a> and find Jon on social media on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jontyson\/?hl=en\">Instagram<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jon Tyson's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-intentional-father\/\">The Intentional Father<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/?s=+fatherhood\">Fatherhood<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/Jon-Tyson\/\">Jon Tyson, listen here<\/a>!.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-12-12.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Fatherhood has Second Chances<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jon Tyson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Intentional Father (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:December 12, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jon: They did research at NYU, asking the question, \u201cWhen did helicopter parenting begin, and what were the consequences of it?\u201d 1990 was the year it began, and within a decade, the rates of depression and anxiety increased by 80 percent; in one decade. It\u2019s because kids no longer knew if they had what it took. It\u2019s like Mum did everything for them.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, I\u2019m sitting on the couch with CJ.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old was he?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He was nine. You weren\u2019t there. I think we were watching TV, probably football.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: [Laughter] Probably.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Probably. We still do. Anyway, somehow, we get into this discussion about mistakes and dad mistakes. I say to him, \u201cCJ, did you know that the Bible actually says that the mistakes that a dad makes will go down to his sons? And his sons and daughters could possibly make the same mistakes?\u201d You know, the sins of the fathers. I didn\u2019t use that term, but I just said, because of that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014did that scare him?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just remember, he just looked at me. Again, he might have been eight or nine; he just looked at me. I said, \u201cCJ, what do you think of that?\u201d Oh, I did use the word \u201csin,\u201d because I then quoted Exodus 20, because it\u2019s in the Ten Commandments.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A lot of people don\u2019t realize it\u2019s in the Ten Commandments. It\u2019s that important, that God is saying, \u201cBe careful, as a dad, because it\u2019s going to go into your legacy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I remember saying the word \u201csin,\u201d and CJ (nine years old)\u2014I\u2019ll never forget this moment\u2014just looks at me. I said, \u201cCJ, what do you think of that?\u201d He goes, \u201cDad, don\u2019t sin.\u201d [Laughter] Then he gets up and walks out of the room, nonchalantly, like, \u201cOf course, don\u2019t do it; because if you do it, I\u2019m going to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But he got it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s crazy to see that my sons have taken things from me\u2014good and bad; some things they never knew I struggled with, they are struggling with.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you: as a dad, as a father, and as a man, does that scare you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, the power we have to influence our sons and daughters is scary. I mean, it\u2019s awesome that God gave us this power; and moms have it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that we, as moms, feel that. We watch\u2014I remember saying to you, \u201cDo you understand the power you carry?\u201d because I watched three little boys watching you constantly. They didn\u2019t watch me; they were watching you. I said, \u201cMan, you\u2019ve got so much power over them. It\u2019s amazing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s also scary for the wife because I can tend to be critical and say, \u201cYou should do this and that.\u201d But I was almost jealous of the power you carried over our sons.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and the scary thing is, you want to have a vision of your son being a better man than you are. We\u2019ve got Jon Tyson back with us today, who is not only a dad\u2014because, you know, this is from a dad\u2019s heart\u2014but from a pastor\u2019s heart, and as an author that wrote about this in your book, The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character.<\/p>\n<p>If you missed yesterday, I\u2019m telling you, \u201cListen, and get the book!\u201d This book is going to change your life as a dad. But something you said yesterday, I wanted to follow up on: this concept called \u201cthe father wound,\u201d that we have sort of a wound from our dads. Is it universal? Even if you are the best dad in the world, is there a sense that somehow you are not going to be enough for your son?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think you are addressing two things, and they are both true. One thing is, \u201cWill the father always feel inadequate?\u201d In some measure, \u201cYes.\u201d If you realize the sacred power, as you mentioned, that we have in parenting, you realize we are shaping lives; we are releasing destinies. We are saying throw away phrases that will either wound or release a kid 50 years into the future.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I mean, it\u2019s an extraordinary sacred power that we have. It\u2019s a trust we are given. The downside of that is that it will be inevitable that we hurt our kids; it will be inevitable. Psychologists tell us wounds happen in two categories: it\u2019s either a lack of protection or a lack of nurture, which means parents don\u2019t stop things happening to us that harm us or parents fail to give us the emotional nourishment and connection that we need. If you trace brokenness down to the roots of childhood, you\u2019ll often find it\u2019s in those two things. It\u2019s, \u201cI didn\u2019t feel loved enough, affirmed enough, or blessed\u201d or \u201cMy parents didn\u2019t put boundaries up, and therefore, I experienced the harm of the world way too early.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think, in some sense, we are doing both of those things in some small measure. To be honest with you, I think for sons, a lot of times, it is, \u201cMy father was not nurturing enough. I wasn\u2019t affirmed enough; I wasn\u2019t blessed; I wasn\u2019t cared for. I wasn\u2019t encouraged. He was absent. He was emotionally distant. He was critical. He was distracted.\u201d That seems to be the number one sort of wounding that I see.<\/p>\n<p>Strangely enough, with daughters often, it\u2019s actually often the opposite. It\u2019s more like, \u201cThere was not enough protection. The boundaries weren\u2019t firm enough.\u201d Those are big, generic pastoral observations, but I think those categories bear themselves true. In some sense, we\u2019re always wounding, even with our best intent. Normally, we either do it in two categories: we either don\u2019t nurture like we should, or we don\u2019t protect like we should.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and one of the reasons I ask is, obviously, I felt that with an absent father; but then, you know, as a young father, and raising sons, I had a plan. I sort of took them through rites of passage. In some sense, as they grew into men, I was thinking, \u201cI did a pretty good job,\u201d you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You probably did do a pretty good job.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, here is the thing\u2014it\u2019s funny! You know, I never thought I did a great job, but I was like, \u201cMan, I did so much better than my dad. They are going to be men, and they are going to thank me some day.\u201d They became men, and they sat down, and they said, \u201cDad, there are some things that you did that hurt me.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d We\u2019ve had those adult conversations, which I think every dad and mom is going to have at some point with your adult kids; maybe not, but in some sense, I was like, \u201cReally?! You felt hurt or let down in some way?\u201d Of course, I should have expected that.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, I think the good thing is that you have had a healthy enough relationship where they feel like they can bring that to you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was what I was going to say. It says a lot about you that they would come and feel safe, and that they could say it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just want them to do it with Ann, not me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Yes, it may be happening on the other side. I know my son talks to my wife Christy in ways he doesn\u2019t talk to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: The older they get\u2014when the kids get older and they get into it\u2014they will probably realize, \u201cGosh, Dad, probably did better than we are all aware of.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I mean, overall, my sons have been unbelievably appreciative and affirmative; but let me ask you this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u2014yes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because I\u2019ve never asked a fellow pastor, who is a dad, this question. Two of my three sons said I was more intimate in my sermons with the congregation than they felt I was with them as my sons. They said they would be sitting there, even as teenagers, sometimes, and I would be sharing something with 1,000 people that [was] very vulnerable; a weakness, a struggle, or something. And they would turn to each other and say, \u201cDid you know that? I didn\u2019t know that.\u201d \u201cLook at that; he is baring his soul to people who he doesn\u2019t even know and won\u2019t do that or hasn\u2019t done that in the family room.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I never knew this when they were teenagers, but now that they are 30-year-old men, they sat me down and said, \u201cDad, that was hurtful.\u201d I had no idea! I\u2019ll tell you this, Jon: the second it came out of their mouth as adult men, I was like, \u201cYou are 1,000 percent right.\u201d There was no defensiveness. I was like, \u201cOoh!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Have you experienced any of that as a father, and as a pastor?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You\u2019d have to ask my son about that. I actually inherited, I think, the wisdom of your generation of fatherhood, because I think stuff like that\u2014I picked up on that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think it was honestly at pastors\u2019 conferences and talks to dads about ministry and family dynamics. It was always, you know, \u201cDon\u2019t share stuff with the congregation that you haven\u2019t shared with your family first.\u201d Look, it\u2019s almost not fair, as a pastor! You\u2019ve got to come up with a compelling 30-to-40-minute talk every week\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014every week! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: It\u2019s like you\u2019re mining for content!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u201cLet me go back. I have shared about the Texas scenario for a while.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cWhat about Tennessee?\u201d \u201cOkay, what about my early 20\u2019s?\u201d You\u2019re looking for fresh stuff. Those people are there every week.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You\u2019ve got to be kind on yourself in some capacity, but I definitely got those family boundaries: \u201cAsk for permission before you share anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u201cMake sure you\u2019ve shared it with your family.\u201d Again, I think that may be something I received as a blessing from an older generation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the things I picked up in your book, though\u2014and you tell me if I am accurate in this\u2014is that I, as I assessed even that hurt from my sons, in my mind, it was courage. It was easier to be intimate with 1,000, because you\u2019re really not. You appear to be, but you are still holding a lot back as a pastor; but it takes courage to look a 15-year-old in the eye and go somewhere, intimately, in a conversation. When I was reading your book, it felt like you have done that with Nate.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think I was very in touch with this. I was very in touch with the world as a confusing place. If you are a young man, your body is filled with chemicals. It is pushing you outward; you\u2019ve got erotic energy, and you\u2019re surrounded by kids binge watching porn on their phones. It\u2019s a very confusing place. You\u2019re trying to test yourself with other men; you\u2019re looking for a sense of identity and belonging. It\u2019s like they are very confusing years to navigate.<\/p>\n<p>I knew, from my experience, I would have projected confidence: \u201cI don\u2019t need this! I\u2019m fine. Dad, don\u2019t talk\u2014why are you talking to me? This is weird.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: My heart ached for it. I think I just remembered, \u201cMy heart aches for this, and I\u2019m not going to go for my son\u2019s surface behavior. I\u2019m going to go for his heart.\u201d I think there is a universal longing in the male heart to experience this. So, I just pushed through and said, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t know if this is helpful or not, but I want to share this with you, because I remember very clearly when I was your age.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I try not to prescribe. I try to empathize. I would never say something like, \u201cWell, look, it\u2019s your first girlfriend. You\u2019re 15. Don\u2019t worry about it.\u201d I try to experience it to the degree that he was experiencing it. At this point in his life, this is the biggest emotional event of his life. I need to respond and enter in like it is.<\/p>\n<p>I think that, maybe, was God\u2019s grace, or maybe because I\u2019m a super introspective person. I was trying to get in touch with it. I would spend a lot of time, actually\u2014I don\u2019t know if this is a best practice; I didn\u2019t put it in the book\u2014but it is one of the reasons I did. I would always ask myself, \u201cWhen I was 14, what was I experiencing?\u201d I would go back: \u201cWas I dating anybody? Who were my teachers? What was I feeling? What was I tempted by? Where was I confused? Where was I insecure?\u201d I try and emotionally reenter that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: When I talked to my son, I think it had a tone of humility and concern rather than confidence and projection. You know, maybe, that is one of the things that opened the doors: really trying to remember that, emotionally, not just intellectually, and then enter in, emotionally, at the state I felt like my son was at.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, Jon, on the earlier episode, we talked about the five kinds of fathers: the Irresponsible father, the Ignorant father, the Inconsistent father, the Involved father\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014all the I\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u2014all the I\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and then, yes, \u201cthe Intentional father\u201d is where we ended. Even you sharing that story of [how] you\u2019ve wanted to connect to your son\u2019s heart; you want him to know you; you guys want a relationship. That is that intentional father. You have really gone to lengths. I love that you not only talk about it, but you give us instructions of how you\u2019ve done this with your son. It started\u2014how did you decide, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s starting at 13?\u201d Why then?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: If you study anthropology, you basically realize almost every society that has existed\u2014except ours, late Modern society\u2014has had a conscious agreed-upon pathway of formation for young men. There is a guy named James Hollis, who is a Jungian psychologist. He\u2019s done a ton\u2014he\u2019s basically a mid-life specialist. He talks about the two adulthoods. He said, \u201cThe first adulthood is prepared at around age 13, because that is when a boy is basically experiencing puberty, and then he\u2019s trying to deal with these conflicting new energies.\u201d He said, \u201cAll societies had a six-step process to guide these energies into productive manhood:<\/p>\n<p>Step Number One was severing from the childhood environment, often by force, which means that kids were pulled out and had to realize, \u201cYou are entering into a liminal space. Childhood is over. The na\u00efve kid has to die somehow.\u201d So, they were consciously removed; sometimes, by force.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, there was like a death of childhood, that in some societies\u2014like we do baptisms, \u201cburied with Christ\u2014they would do a \u201cdeath of childhood ceremony,\u201d sometimes putting them in coffins.<\/p>\n<p>Then they would do, basically, a series of formational frameworks around three areas. Number one, the religion of the community: \u201cThis is what it means to believe in our god as our people.\u201d Number two, the history of the people: \u201cThis is what it means to be one of us.\u201d Number three: \u201cHere are the roles you have to be good at to contribute to the society that you were born into.\u201d That would go on for some time.<\/p>\n<p>Then they would enter into a thing called \u201cthe ordeal.\u201d The ordeal is where they were sent out on their own to figure out whether all of those things they have learned actually work: \u201cDid they possess them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For the Australian Aboriginals\u2014Michael Easter writes about this in his book, The Comfort Crisis, Aboriginal young men were sent out into the Outback for up to six months. Everything in the Outback is trying to kill you: the sun, the earth, and every creature you see. \u201cDo you have what it takes?\u201d is the question that was being asked of them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: If they passed that, they would be welcomed back, blessed by, and recognized by the community of men. Then they would be integrated back into society to serve as a functional member of the tribe.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, if they didn\u2019t pass it, they were dead. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That is exactly right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Six months!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: So, this is an important point, which I mention: there was actually a lot of pushback. Originally, there was a thing in there where a mum does what is called a directional dinner. At the end of the course that this book is built off of, it was called a severing dinner. It basically says the primary role of formation shifts from the mother to the father for a conscious period of time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, you even said your wife cried.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Yes. Oh, this is awful! I remember it so clearly. She ran into the room, fell on the bed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would. Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I asked my son, when we were hiking across Spain\u2014I don\u2019t think I started doing this with him to turn this into a thing; I did this with him because I loved my son. I was like, \u201cI\u2019ve got to figure this out.\u201d I got so much feedback over the course of time. People were like, \u201cYou should turn this into a thing.\u201d So, when I was doing that, I said, \u201cHey, Nate, I want to check with you. This is going to be a lot about your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cHey, there is quite a lot of controversy around the severing dinner.\u201d He stopped! We were walking across Spain; he stops, and he goes, \u201cWhat are you talking about, Dad?\u201d I was like, \u201cPeople feel like it was too barbaric.\u201d He said, \u201cThat was so helpful for me, psychologically. I needed to know I was being pushed over into the community of men.\u201d He was like, \u201cYou cannot take that out.\u201d This is my son! \u201cYou cannot take that out, Dad. Young men will need this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, talk about it. What was the ceremony?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and what is this walk across Spain? That\u2019s not something we hear every day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was later! That came later; but go back to the severing.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, I mean, it\u2019s basically\u2014they did research at NYU, asking the question, \u201cWhen did helicopter parenting begin, and what were the consequences of it?\u201d The helicopter parent is the over-involved parent, who just does everything for the kid. 1990 was the year it began, and, within a decade, the rates of depression and anxiety increased by 80 percent in one decade.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That\u2019s because kids no longer knew if they had what it took. It\u2019s like Mum did everything for them.<\/p>\n<p>Now, they talk about bulldozer parents, who just like clear the way. It\u2019s not even hovering! It\u2019s like they literally get rid of all the obstacles for their kids; call the college professor if they\u2019re mean to the child sort of a thing. There\u2019s an 80 percent increase in anxiety and depression. That is like such a psychological shift, and I think it\u2019s because young people need a chance to test themselves, and grow, and express. I think there is something that happens so there is not some sort of Oedipus complex or whatever, where a young boy has to be severed from the influence of his mother and hand it to his father.<\/p>\n<p>Now, my wife and my son have an incredible relationship! And they did the entire time; but she would say to him, \u201cYour father has to help you with this. He can give you things I cannot give you. I have not been where you are going through, so I push you back to your father.\u201d Her goal was to help cement that relationship.<\/p>\n<p>Connected to this\u2014the whole idea was [that] the difference between a boy and a man is a series of shifts that have to happen to see this change work. She knew that she had a heart of comfort; so, she would always say, \u201cIt\u2019s okay. You\u2019re going to be okay,\u201d rather than, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to suck it up, man. Life is hard. You\u2019re going to have to push through this.\u201d She didn\u2019t want that to be a dominating influence. She wanted him to have to lean into the pain of the development.<\/p>\n<p>She took him out for a dinner and said, \u201cI\u2019m handing you over to your father for a period of conscious male formation.\u201d She blessed him, wrote a letter to him, read it over him through tears, [and] gave him some gifts. She said, \u201cI trust you, but this is now a journey you\u2019ve got to take with your father. I\u2019ll be here to support you, but you and he are going to go into this journey of manhood.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to the single mom\u2014or maybe even a blended family, where it\u2019s a different dad\u2014or first, talk about a single mom. My mom was a single mom.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: The best-case scenario\u2014I believe there is some sacred role that a biological father has to his children that is there; it comes. Living in the world and culture that we do, the minority of homes now, I think, statistically, actually come from biological two-family homes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, what does that mean? Here\u2019s what it means: \u201cYou need to be intentional and not passive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The beauty of being a Christian is you have a church community that is around you. This whole book is written to be done in a co-hort. I mean, we\u2019re talking about fatherhood directly, but the goal is [to] rely on the Christian community. If you\u2019re a mum in a half-decent church, there are going to be dads with a passion for mentoring, who will say, \u201cLet me step in, and let me help you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A huge reason I am committed to try to normalize this\u2014I want to normalize this in every church in America: \u201cThis is how we raise our kids! This is how we raise young men.\u201d So then, she doesn\u2019t feel all the pressure on her own. The ideal scenario is a counsel of dads\u2014it\u2019s a tribe of mentors; it\u2019s a community of men. Again, with the breakdown of the social fabric, social capital is basically gone in America. We\u2019re hiding behind our screens.<\/p>\n<p>Christians have a distinct advantage, because you have this web of relationships you can rely on and draw into. So, to me, the ideal scenario is\u2014and I\u2019ve definitely relied on this\u2014the ideal scenario is: parent relationship; student ministry involvement and alignment; church vision and participation; and some kind of campus ministry connected to it.<\/p>\n<p>If you get those things lined up, with mentors that come along who can supplement what you can\u2019t do, that\u2019s the key! I would tell the mum: \u201cDo what you can. Your son will be eternally grateful. Then bring in people for those areas you feel like you need a specialist or whatever and build a web; build a counsel of dads; build a tribe.\u201d To me, that\u2019s the beauty of a local church and settling into that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is exactly what my mom did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t even know it. In some ways, she went to every coach I had, behind my back, and said, \u201cHey, you know, Dave doesn\u2019t have a father. Would you be that man in his life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Oh, that\u2019s amazing. That makes me want to weep. That\u2019s a loving mom!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I had no idea. She was intentional that way; an intentional mother. Then, she also was the mom that said, \u201cOh, you want a guitar? Yes, go mow some yards and shovel some driveways, and you\u2019ll get one.\u201d There was no hovering; there was no helicopter. It was like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to become a man, and this is what men do.\u201d Honestly, it was powerful. Ann: I\u2019m thinking of Bill at our church, who is a dad that has\u2014all of his kids are grown\u2014but he works with middle school boys, and then he stays with them\u2014like these six boys\u2014all the way through high school and graduation.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Oh, I love that!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He is on these jobs\u2014because he works for a motor company\u2014and yet, he has these side jobs like redoing homes and renovations. He always has one of those boys with them, teaching them to become men.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That\u2019s amazing! Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, Bill Butler. Shout out to Bill, because he parented his own kids; but he\u2019s a dad to so many. I think, in some ways, God is calling us, as men\u2014I know me, as a mentor now; God is calling me to do that further.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: This is a transformational principle for men. Men often struggle with comparison, so they\u2019re always looking up and feeling inferior, looking around and feeling competitive. I\u2019m like, \u201cLook down and raise up, because to those people below you, you are the person they want to be like.\u201d When you deploy your energy down to raise up, I think it\u2019s such a joy.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Wow! Such astounding advice for men out there who may not be in the \u201craising little boys\u201d life stage, or, honestly, any of us who are just a little bit ahead age-wise from other men around us. \u201cLook down, and raise them up, regardless of your age.\u201d I love that!<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbot, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jon Tyson on FamilyLife Today. Jon has written a book called The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character. You can pick up a copy of Jon\u2019s book at FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can click on \u201cToday\u2019s Resources.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, we\u2019re honest here on this program; we really are! Most of the time, that\u2019s a great thing; but Dave Wilson also has a few thoughts:<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This program is called FamilyLife Today, but it could be called Real FamilyLife Today, because we get pretty stinkin\u2019 real!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because people want this! We all need to know what is happening and how to deal with the things that are really difficult in life!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019ll tell you, I love being part of a program where we\u2019re allowed to do that, where we can be that honest. Do you know why? Because that\u2019s where people are living, right where we\u2019re living.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we\u2019re talking about stuff today that we never thought we\u2019d talk about 30 years ago!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Think about some of the topics we\u2019ve hit: deconstruction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Our kids walking away from the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Porn.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Porn, and addictions\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014affairs\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014affairs, abuse. You name it, we will go there! And we hope that you find hope and help when we go there. We\u2019re not just sharing our stuff so you can hear our stuff; we\u2019re sharing it to help you navigate the tricky world you and I are living in.<\/p>\n<p>And let me tell you, God shows up when we get real!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you\u2019ve supported this ministry, I just want to say, \u201cthank you,\u201d because you have enabled us to bring so much help and hope to families.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I want to invite you, if you haven\u2019t supported us: now\u2019s the time! I mean, seriously, this is a crucial time for the American family! We are losing this war, and we\u2019re here to help you win the battle in your homes. I know you want to win! We want to win. We want to help you. Every single day, we get to speak life and the Word of God into your homes, and we can\u2019t do that unless you want to jump in, pray for us and, also, financially give.<\/p>\n<p>We have partners who have given, and you can become a partner. Your gift, at this time, will be matched! It will be doubled, and you can help your family and other families down the street from you win, as you enable us to bring life and, literally, bring Jesus into your home.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: That\u2019s right! You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>You know, ten minutes a day for five years, after compounding, is pretty significant! It\u2019s a large amount of time. Well, tomorrow, Jon Tyson will be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk through being wise with your time and energy in relation to your kids. That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1744836909:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_c688b6953d5de2417bab51fa06bf8649d86f0dd8":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_c688b6953d5de2417bab51fa06bf8649d86f0dd8":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:70:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Fatherhood has Second Chances: Jon Tyson\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280377;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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not enough to hope our sons will become good men. We need them to be good at being men. Discover the influence you have on your family through second chances. Join Author Jon Tyson as he dives into how your habits and wounds shape your sons. Learn wh...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jon Tyson at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.church.nyc\/\">church.nyc<\/a> and find Jon on social media on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jontyson\/?hl=en\">Instagram<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jon Tyson's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-intentional-father\/\">The Intentional Father<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/?s=+fatherhood\">Fatherhood<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/Jon-Tyson\/\">Jon Tyson, listen here<\/a>!.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-12-12.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Fatherhood has Second Chances<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jon Tyson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Intentional Father (Day 2 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:December 12, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jon: They did research at NYU, asking the question, \u201cWhen did helicopter parenting begin, and what were the consequences of it?\u201d 1990 was the year it began, and within a decade, the rates of depression and anxiety increased by 80 percent; in one decade. It\u2019s because kids no longer knew if they had what it took. It\u2019s like Mum did everything for them.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, I\u2019m sitting on the couch with CJ.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old was he?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He was nine. You weren\u2019t there. I think we were watching TV, probably football.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: [Laughter] Probably.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Probably. We still do. Anyway, somehow, we get into this discussion about mistakes and dad mistakes. I say to him, \u201cCJ, did you know that the Bible actually says that the mistakes that a dad makes will go down to his sons? And his sons and daughters could possibly make the same mistakes?\u201d You know, the sins of the fathers. I didn\u2019t use that term, but I just said, because of that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014did that scare him?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just remember, he just looked at me. Again, he might have been eight or nine; he just looked at me. I said, \u201cCJ, what do you think of that?\u201d Oh, I did use the word \u201csin,\u201d because I then quoted Exodus 20, because it\u2019s in the Ten Commandments.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A lot of people don\u2019t realize it\u2019s in the Ten Commandments. It\u2019s that important, that God is saying, \u201cBe careful, as a dad, because it\u2019s going to go into your legacy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I remember saying the word \u201csin,\u201d and CJ (nine years old)\u2014I\u2019ll never forget this moment\u2014just looks at me. I said, \u201cCJ, what do you think of that?\u201d He goes, \u201cDad, don\u2019t sin.\u201d [Laughter] Then he gets up and walks out of the room, nonchalantly, like, \u201cOf course, don\u2019t do it; because if you do it, I\u2019m going to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But he got it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s crazy to see that my sons have taken things from me\u2014good and bad; some things they never knew I struggled with, they are struggling with.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let me ask you: as a dad, as a father, and as a man, does that scare you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, the power we have to influence our sons and daughters is scary. I mean, it\u2019s awesome that God gave us this power; and moms have it, too.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think that we, as moms, feel that. We watch\u2014I remember saying to you, \u201cDo you understand the power you carry?\u201d because I watched three little boys watching you constantly. They didn\u2019t watch me; they were watching you. I said, \u201cMan, you\u2019ve got so much power over them. It\u2019s amazing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s also scary for the wife because I can tend to be critical and say, \u201cYou should do this and that.\u201d But I was almost jealous of the power you carried over our sons.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and the scary thing is, you want to have a vision of your son being a better man than you are. We\u2019ve got Jon Tyson back with us today, who is not only a dad\u2014because, you know, this is from a dad\u2019s heart\u2014but from a pastor\u2019s heart, and as an author that wrote about this in your book, The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character.<\/p>\n<p>If you missed yesterday, I\u2019m telling you, \u201cListen, and get the book!\u201d This book is going to change your life as a dad. But something you said yesterday, I wanted to follow up on: this concept called \u201cthe father wound,\u201d that we have sort of a wound from our dads. Is it universal? Even if you are the best dad in the world, is there a sense that somehow you are not going to be enough for your son?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think you are addressing two things, and they are both true. One thing is, \u201cWill the father always feel inadequate?\u201d In some measure, \u201cYes.\u201d If you realize the sacred power, as you mentioned, that we have in parenting, you realize we are shaping lives; we are releasing destinies. We are saying throw away phrases that will either wound or release a kid 50 years into the future.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I mean, it\u2019s an extraordinary sacred power that we have. It\u2019s a trust we are given. The downside of that is that it will be inevitable that we hurt our kids; it will be inevitable. Psychologists tell us wounds happen in two categories: it\u2019s either a lack of protection or a lack of nurture, which means parents don\u2019t stop things happening to us that harm us or parents fail to give us the emotional nourishment and connection that we need. If you trace brokenness down to the roots of childhood, you\u2019ll often find it\u2019s in those two things. It\u2019s, \u201cI didn\u2019t feel loved enough, affirmed enough, or blessed\u201d or \u201cMy parents didn\u2019t put boundaries up, and therefore, I experienced the harm of the world way too early.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think, in some sense, we are doing both of those things in some small measure. To be honest with you, I think for sons, a lot of times, it is, \u201cMy father was not nurturing enough. I wasn\u2019t affirmed enough; I wasn\u2019t blessed; I wasn\u2019t cared for. I wasn\u2019t encouraged. He was absent. He was emotionally distant. He was critical. He was distracted.\u201d That seems to be the number one sort of wounding that I see.<\/p>\n<p>Strangely enough, with daughters often, it\u2019s actually often the opposite. It\u2019s more like, \u201cThere was not enough protection. The boundaries weren\u2019t firm enough.\u201d Those are big, generic pastoral observations, but I think those categories bear themselves true. In some sense, we\u2019re always wounding, even with our best intent. Normally, we either do it in two categories: we either don\u2019t nurture like we should, or we don\u2019t protect like we should.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and one of the reasons I ask is, obviously, I felt that with an absent father; but then, you know, as a young father, and raising sons, I had a plan. I sort of took them through rites of passage. In some sense, as they grew into men, I was thinking, \u201cI did a pretty good job,\u201d you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You probably did do a pretty good job.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, here is the thing\u2014it\u2019s funny! You know, I never thought I did a great job, but I was like, \u201cMan, I did so much better than my dad. They are going to be men, and they are going to thank me some day.\u201d They became men, and they sat down, and they said, \u201cDad, there are some things that you did that hurt me.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d We\u2019ve had those adult conversations, which I think every dad and mom is going to have at some point with your adult kids; maybe not, but in some sense, I was like, \u201cReally?! You felt hurt or let down in some way?\u201d Of course, I should have expected that.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, I think the good thing is that you have had a healthy enough relationship where they feel like they can bring that to you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That was what I was going to say. It says a lot about you that they would come and feel safe, and that they could say it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I just want them to do it with Ann, not me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Yes, it may be happening on the other side. I know my son talks to my wife Christy in ways he doesn\u2019t talk to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: The older they get\u2014when the kids get older and they get into it\u2014they will probably realize, \u201cGosh, Dad, probably did better than we are all aware of.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I mean, overall, my sons have been unbelievably appreciative and affirmative; but let me ask you this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u2014yes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because I\u2019ve never asked a fellow pastor, who is a dad, this question. Two of my three sons said I was more intimate in my sermons with the congregation than they felt I was with them as my sons. They said they would be sitting there, even as teenagers, sometimes, and I would be sharing something with 1,000 people that [was] very vulnerable; a weakness, a struggle, or something. And they would turn to each other and say, \u201cDid you know that? I didn\u2019t know that.\u201d \u201cLook at that; he is baring his soul to people who he doesn\u2019t even know and won\u2019t do that or hasn\u2019t done that in the family room.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I never knew this when they were teenagers, but now that they are 30-year-old men, they sat me down and said, \u201cDad, that was hurtful.\u201d I had no idea! I\u2019ll tell you this, Jon: the second it came out of their mouth as adult men, I was like, \u201cYou are 1,000 percent right.\u201d There was no defensiveness. I was like, \u201cOoh!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Have you experienced any of that as a father, and as a pastor?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You\u2019d have to ask my son about that. I actually inherited, I think, the wisdom of your generation of fatherhood, because I think stuff like that\u2014I picked up on that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think it was honestly at pastors\u2019 conferences and talks to dads about ministry and family dynamics. It was always, you know, \u201cDon\u2019t share stuff with the congregation that you haven\u2019t shared with your family first.\u201d Look, it\u2019s almost not fair, as a pastor! You\u2019ve got to come up with a compelling 30-to-40-minute talk every week\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014every week! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: It\u2019s like you\u2019re mining for content!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u201cLet me go back. I have shared about the Texas scenario for a while.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cWhat about Tennessee?\u201d \u201cOkay, what about my early 20\u2019s?\u201d You\u2019re looking for fresh stuff. Those people are there every week.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: You\u2019ve got to be kind on yourself in some capacity, but I definitely got those family boundaries: \u201cAsk for permission before you share anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u201cMake sure you\u2019ve shared it with your family.\u201d Again, I think that may be something I received as a blessing from an older generation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: One of the things I picked up in your book, though\u2014and you tell me if I am accurate in this\u2014is that I, as I assessed even that hurt from my sons, in my mind, it was courage. It was easier to be intimate with 1,000, because you\u2019re really not. You appear to be, but you are still holding a lot back as a pastor; but it takes courage to look a 15-year-old in the eye and go somewhere, intimately, in a conversation. When I was reading your book, it felt like you have done that with Nate.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I think I was very in touch with this. I was very in touch with the world as a confusing place. If you are a young man, your body is filled with chemicals. It is pushing you outward; you\u2019ve got erotic energy, and you\u2019re surrounded by kids binge watching porn on their phones. It\u2019s a very confusing place. You\u2019re trying to test yourself with other men; you\u2019re looking for a sense of identity and belonging. It\u2019s like they are very confusing years to navigate.<\/p>\n<p>I knew, from my experience, I would have projected confidence: \u201cI don\u2019t need this! I\u2019m fine. Dad, don\u2019t talk\u2014why are you talking to me? This is weird.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: My heart ached for it. I think I just remembered, \u201cMy heart aches for this, and I\u2019m not going to go for my son\u2019s surface behavior. I\u2019m going to go for his heart.\u201d I think there is a universal longing in the male heart to experience this. So, I just pushed through and said, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t know if this is helpful or not, but I want to share this with you, because I remember very clearly when I was your age.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I try not to prescribe. I try to empathize. I would never say something like, \u201cWell, look, it\u2019s your first girlfriend. You\u2019re 15. Don\u2019t worry about it.\u201d I try to experience it to the degree that he was experiencing it. At this point in his life, this is the biggest emotional event of his life. I need to respond and enter in like it is.<\/p>\n<p>I think that, maybe, was God\u2019s grace, or maybe because I\u2019m a super introspective person. I was trying to get in touch with it. I would spend a lot of time, actually\u2014I don\u2019t know if this is a best practice; I didn\u2019t put it in the book\u2014but it is one of the reasons I did. I would always ask myself, \u201cWhen I was 14, what was I experiencing?\u201d I would go back: \u201cWas I dating anybody? Who were my teachers? What was I feeling? What was I tempted by? Where was I confused? Where was I insecure?\u201d I try and emotionally reenter that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: When I talked to my son, I think it had a tone of humility and concern rather than confidence and projection. You know, maybe, that is one of the things that opened the doors: really trying to remember that, emotionally, not just intellectually, and then enter in, emotionally, at the state I felt like my son was at.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, Jon, on the earlier episode, we talked about the five kinds of fathers: the Irresponsible father, the Ignorant father, the Inconsistent father, the Involved father\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014all the I\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: \u2014all the I\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and then, yes, \u201cthe Intentional father\u201d is where we ended. Even you sharing that story of [how] you\u2019ve wanted to connect to your son\u2019s heart; you want him to know you; you guys want a relationship. That is that intentional father. You have really gone to lengths. I love that you not only talk about it, but you give us instructions of how you\u2019ve done this with your son. It started\u2014how did you decide, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s starting at 13?\u201d Why then?<\/p>\n<p>Jon: If you study anthropology, you basically realize almost every society that has existed\u2014except ours, late Modern society\u2014has had a conscious agreed-upon pathway of formation for young men. There is a guy named James Hollis, who is a Jungian psychologist. He\u2019s done a ton\u2014he\u2019s basically a mid-life specialist. He talks about the two adulthoods. He said, \u201cThe first adulthood is prepared at around age 13, because that is when a boy is basically experiencing puberty, and then he\u2019s trying to deal with these conflicting new energies.\u201d He said, \u201cAll societies had a six-step process to guide these energies into productive manhood:<\/p>\n<p>Step Number One was severing from the childhood environment, often by force, which means that kids were pulled out and had to realize, \u201cYou are entering into a liminal space. Childhood is over. The na\u00efve kid has to die somehow.\u201d So, they were consciously removed; sometimes, by force.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, there was like a death of childhood, that in some societies\u2014like we do baptisms, \u201cburied with Christ\u2014they would do a \u201cdeath of childhood ceremony,\u201d sometimes putting them in coffins.<\/p>\n<p>Then they would do, basically, a series of formational frameworks around three areas. Number one, the religion of the community: \u201cThis is what it means to believe in our god as our people.\u201d Number two, the history of the people: \u201cThis is what it means to be one of us.\u201d Number three: \u201cHere are the roles you have to be good at to contribute to the society that you were born into.\u201d That would go on for some time.<\/p>\n<p>Then they would enter into a thing called \u201cthe ordeal.\u201d The ordeal is where they were sent out on their own to figure out whether all of those things they have learned actually work: \u201cDid they possess them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For the Australian Aboriginals\u2014Michael Easter writes about this in his book, The Comfort Crisis, Aboriginal young men were sent out into the Outback for up to six months. Everything in the Outback is trying to kill you: the sun, the earth, and every creature you see. \u201cDo you have what it takes?\u201d is the question that was being asked of them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: If they passed that, they would be welcomed back, blessed by, and recognized by the community of men. Then they would be integrated back into society to serve as a functional member of the tribe.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, if they didn\u2019t pass it, they were dead. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That is exactly right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Six months!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: So, this is an important point, which I mention: there was actually a lot of pushback. Originally, there was a thing in there where a mum does what is called a directional dinner. At the end of the course that this book is built off of, it was called a severing dinner. It basically says the primary role of formation shifts from the mother to the father for a conscious period of time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, you even said your wife cried.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Yes. Oh, this is awful! I remember it so clearly. She ran into the room, fell on the bed.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would. Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: I asked my son, when we were hiking across Spain\u2014I don\u2019t think I started doing this with him to turn this into a thing; I did this with him because I loved my son. I was like, \u201cI\u2019ve got to figure this out.\u201d I got so much feedback over the course of time. People were like, \u201cYou should turn this into a thing.\u201d So, when I was doing that, I said, \u201cHey, Nate, I want to check with you. This is going to be a lot about your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cHey, there is quite a lot of controversy around the severing dinner.\u201d He stopped! We were walking across Spain; he stops, and he goes, \u201cWhat are you talking about, Dad?\u201d I was like, \u201cPeople feel like it was too barbaric.\u201d He said, \u201cThat was so helpful for me, psychologically. I needed to know I was being pushed over into the community of men.\u201d He was like, \u201cYou cannot take that out.\u201d This is my son! \u201cYou cannot take that out, Dad. Young men will need this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, talk about it. What was the ceremony?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and what is this walk across Spain? That\u2019s not something we hear every day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was later! That came later; but go back to the severing.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, I mean, it\u2019s basically\u2014they did research at NYU, asking the question, \u201cWhen did helicopter parenting begin, and what were the consequences of it?\u201d The helicopter parent is the over-involved parent, who just does everything for the kid. 1990 was the year it began, and, within a decade, the rates of depression and anxiety increased by 80 percent in one decade.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That\u2019s because kids no longer knew if they had what it took. It\u2019s like Mum did everything for them.<\/p>\n<p>Now, they talk about bulldozer parents, who just like clear the way. It\u2019s not even hovering! It\u2019s like they literally get rid of all the obstacles for their kids; call the college professor if they\u2019re mean to the child sort of a thing. There\u2019s an 80 percent increase in anxiety and depression. That is like such a psychological shift, and I think it\u2019s because young people need a chance to test themselves, and grow, and express. I think there is something that happens so there is not some sort of Oedipus complex or whatever, where a young boy has to be severed from the influence of his mother and hand it to his father.<\/p>\n<p>Now, my wife and my son have an incredible relationship! And they did the entire time; but she would say to him, \u201cYour father has to help you with this. He can give you things I cannot give you. I have not been where you are going through, so I push you back to your father.\u201d Her goal was to help cement that relationship.<\/p>\n<p>Connected to this\u2014the whole idea was [that] the difference between a boy and a man is a series of shifts that have to happen to see this change work. She knew that she had a heart of comfort; so, she would always say, \u201cIt\u2019s okay. You\u2019re going to be okay,\u201d rather than, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to suck it up, man. Life is hard. You\u2019re going to have to push through this.\u201d She didn\u2019t want that to be a dominating influence. She wanted him to have to lean into the pain of the development.<\/p>\n<p>She took him out for a dinner and said, \u201cI\u2019m handing you over to your father for a period of conscious male formation.\u201d She blessed him, wrote a letter to him, read it over him through tears, [and] gave him some gifts. She said, \u201cI trust you, but this is now a journey you\u2019ve got to take with your father. I\u2019ll be here to support you, but you and he are going to go into this journey of manhood.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to the single mom\u2014or maybe even a blended family, where it\u2019s a different dad\u2014or first, talk about a single mom. My mom was a single mom.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: The best-case scenario\u2014I believe there is some sacred role that a biological father has to his children that is there; it comes. Living in the world and culture that we do, the minority of homes now, I think, statistically, actually come from biological two-family homes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Well, what does that mean? Here\u2019s what it means: \u201cYou need to be intentional and not passive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The beauty of being a Christian is you have a church community that is around you. This whole book is written to be done in a co-hort. I mean, we\u2019re talking about fatherhood directly, but the goal is [to] rely on the Christian community. If you\u2019re a mum in a half-decent church, there are going to be dads with a passion for mentoring, who will say, \u201cLet me step in, and let me help you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A huge reason I am committed to try to normalize this\u2014I want to normalize this in every church in America: \u201cThis is how we raise our kids! This is how we raise young men.\u201d So then, she doesn\u2019t feel all the pressure on her own. The ideal scenario is a counsel of dads\u2014it\u2019s a tribe of mentors; it\u2019s a community of men. Again, with the breakdown of the social fabric, social capital is basically gone in America. We\u2019re hiding behind our screens.<\/p>\n<p>Christians have a distinct advantage, because you have this web of relationships you can rely on and draw into. So, to me, the ideal scenario is\u2014and I\u2019ve definitely relied on this\u2014the ideal scenario is: parent relationship; student ministry involvement and alignment; church vision and participation; and some kind of campus ministry connected to it.<\/p>\n<p>If you get those things lined up, with mentors that come along who can supplement what you can\u2019t do, that\u2019s the key! I would tell the mum: \u201cDo what you can. Your son will be eternally grateful. Then bring in people for those areas you feel like you need a specialist or whatever and build a web; build a counsel of dads; build a tribe.\u201d To me, that\u2019s the beauty of a local church and settling into that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is exactly what my mom did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, she did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t even know it. In some ways, she went to every coach I had, behind my back, and said, \u201cHey, you know, Dave doesn\u2019t have a father. Would you be that man in his life?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Oh, that\u2019s amazing. That makes me want to weep. That\u2019s a loving mom!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I had no idea. She was intentional that way; an intentional mother. Then, she also was the mom that said, \u201cOh, you want a guitar? Yes, go mow some yards and shovel some driveways, and you\u2019ll get one.\u201d There was no hovering; there was no helicopter. It was like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to become a man, and this is what men do.\u201d Honestly, it was powerful. Ann: I\u2019m thinking of Bill at our church, who is a dad that has\u2014all of his kids are grown\u2014but he works with middle school boys, and then he stays with them\u2014like these six boys\u2014all the way through high school and graduation.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: Oh, I love that!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He is on these jobs\u2014because he works for a motor company\u2014and yet, he has these side jobs like redoing homes and renovations. He always has one of those boys with them, teaching them to become men.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: That\u2019s amazing! Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, Bill Butler. Shout out to Bill, because he parented his own kids; but he\u2019s a dad to so many. I think, in some ways, God is calling us, as men\u2014I know me, as a mentor now; God is calling me to do that further.<\/p>\n<p>Jon: This is a transformational principle for men. Men often struggle with comparison, so they\u2019re always looking up and feeling inferior, looking around and feeling competitive. I\u2019m like, \u201cLook down and raise up, because to those people below you, you are the person they want to be like.\u201d When you deploy your energy down to raise up, I think it\u2019s such a joy.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Wow! Such astounding advice for men out there who may not be in the \u201craising little boys\u201d life stage, or, honestly, any of us who are just a little bit ahead age-wise from other men around us. \u201cLook down, and raise them up, regardless of your age.\u201d I love that!<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbot, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jon Tyson on FamilyLife Today. Jon has written a book called The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character. You can pick up a copy of Jon\u2019s book at FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can click on \u201cToday\u2019s Resources.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, we\u2019re honest here on this program; we really are! Most of the time, that\u2019s a great thing; but Dave Wilson also has a few thoughts:<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This program is called FamilyLife Today, but it could be called Real FamilyLife Today, because we get pretty stinkin\u2019 real!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because people want this! We all need to know what is happening and how to deal with the things that are really difficult in life!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019ll tell you, I love being part of a program where we\u2019re allowed to do that, where we can be that honest. Do you know why? Because that\u2019s where people are living, right where we\u2019re living.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we\u2019re talking about stuff today that we never thought we\u2019d talk about 30 years ago!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Think about some of the topics we\u2019ve hit: deconstruction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Our kids walking away from the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Porn.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Porn, and addictions\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014affairs\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014affairs, abuse. You name it, we will go there! And we hope that you find hope and help when we go there. We\u2019re not just sharing our stuff so you can hear our stuff; we\u2019re sharing it to help you navigate the tricky world you and I are living in.<\/p>\n<p>And let me tell you, God shows up when we get real!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And if you\u2019ve supported this ministry, I just want to say, \u201cthank you,\u201d because you have enabled us to bring so much help and hope to families.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I want to invite you, if you haven\u2019t supported us: now\u2019s the time! I mean, seriously, this is a crucial time for the American family! We are losing this war, and we\u2019re here to help you win the battle in your homes. I know you want to win! We want to win. We want to help you. Every single day, we get to speak life and the Word of God into your homes, and we can\u2019t do that unless you want to jump in, pray for us and, also, financially give.<\/p>\n<p>We have partners who have given, and you can become a partner. Your gift, at this time, will be matched! It will be doubled, and you can help your family and other families down the street from you win, as you enable us to bring life and, literally, bring Jesus into your home.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: That\u2019s right! You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>You know, ten minutes a day for five years, after compounding, is pretty significant! It\u2019s a large amount of time. Well, tomorrow, Jon Tyson will be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk through being wise with your time and energy in relation to your kids. That\u2019s tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280377","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280377"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280377"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280377"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280377"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280377"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280377"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280377"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}