{"id":280361,"date":"2024-01-03T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-01-03T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:15:40","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:15:40","slug":"gods-not-dead-justin-brierley","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley\/","title":{"rendered":"God\u2019s Not Dead: Justin Brierley"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Could we be witnessing a return of belief in God in our generation? Apologist Justin Brierley, author of Rediscovering the Bible and the Alternative Story of Science, offers compelling scientific evidence for robust faith.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Could we be witnessing a return of belief in God in our generation? Apologist Justin Brierley, author of Rediscovering the Bible and the Alternative Story of Science, offers compelling scientific evidence for robust faith. Show Notes and Resources Connect&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ad0abc8e-8362-47e1-a179-b154011cb612\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:23","filesize":"28.76M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9820],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280361","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","cwp_profile-justin-brierley","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280361\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280361\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"50o3BKqT2S\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley\/\">God\u2019s Not Dead: Justin Brierley<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/gods-not-dead-justin-brierley\/embed\/#?secret=50o3BKqT2S\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;God\u2019s Not Dead: Justin Brierley&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"50o3BKqT2S\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Could we be witnessing a return of belief in God in our generation? Apologist Justin Brierley, author of Rediscovering the Bible and the Alternative Story of Science, offers compelling scientific evidence for robust faith. Show Notes and Resources Connect...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<p> Connect with Justin Brierley on his website: <a href=\"https:\/\/justinbrierley.com\/\">justinbrierley.com<\/a> or listen to his podcasts: <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/1682867001\">Re-Enchanting podcast<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/267142101\">Unbelievable<\/a><br \/> And grab Justin Brierley's book,<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-surprising-rebirth-of-belief-in-god-why-new-atheism-grew-old-and-secular-thinkers-are-considering-christianity-again\">The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God in our shop<\/a><br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/january-2024\/you-can-be-a-source-of-hope\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=January2024\">Give a gift today to help FamilyLife to give hope to more families<\/a>.<br \/> Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/> Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/> Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/> Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-01-03.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nGod\u2019s Not Dead\r\n\r\nGuest:Justin Brierley\r\n\r\nFrom the series:The Conversation You\u2019re Avoiding (Day 3 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:January 3, 2024\r\n\r\nJustin: We need something to believe in. We need a story. That\u2019s what helps humans to flourish. We all need a story to live in, and the problem is, that other story that Atheism told, about this being a meaningless universe, took away our story. That\u2019s part of why we have a mental health crisis: people who don\u2019t know who they are, what they\u2019re supposed to believe in. We see a rise in anxiety, depression, [and] suicide. I think it\u2019s all tied into this idea that we\u2019ve lost a story that makes sense of who we are.\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: We have Justin Brierley in the studio, who is an authority, a theologian, a thinker, and a very, very wise Christian apologist; really, one of the best in the world. It\u2019s a privilege to have you not only in America, but in Orlando in our studio. Justin, welcome back. This is our third day in a row that we\u2019ve had you here.\r\n\r\nJustin: Thank you.\r\n\r\nDave: We just want to say we\u2019re privileged to have you here. I met your son, Noah, and I don\u2019t know, [but] he might be the most impressive Brierley that I\u2019ve met. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nJustin: He\u2019s impressive in lots of different ways. Firstly, height. He towers about a foot above me.\r\n\r\nDave: I had a professor in seminary\u2014I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve ever met J.P. Moreland?\r\n\r\nJustin: I have.\r\n\r\nDave: Have you? You know J.P.?\r\n\r\nJustin: I do.\r\n\r\nDave: He was one of my profs, and I\u2019ll never forget; he taught theology and many things, but really shaped me. It was one of the first times in my life that I was challenged to think, really think. I don\u2019t think a day went by that he didn\u2019t make you think\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014you were thinking about football all those years prior.\r\n\r\nDave: Hey, you didn\u2019t have to throw that in there. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\u2014but about God and about theology. I\u2019ll never forget: he said one day in class, \u201cYou always have to be ready, as a presenter, to take all your belief and truth and put it on the bottom shelf.\u201d He often said, \u201cI would leave some of the deepest things for later, and they would come out in the Q &amp;amp; A. I wouldn\u2019t give them everything. I\u2019d put it down on a bottom shelf where laymen live and they can understand.\u201d \r\n\r\nHere\u2019s what I thought: \u201cLet\u2019s get you to bottom shelf some things for our listeners.\u201d I\u2019ve never done this. This book is great\u2014The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God\u2014where you\u2019re making the case that not everybody is walking away. There is a surprising rebirth. It\u2019s surprising, because you\u2019re not hearing about it, and it\u2019s real. Throughout the book, you show us why. Could you take\u2014we\u2019ll just give you the chapter title, and you bottom shelf it.\r\n\r\nJustin: Okay.\r\n\r\nDave: I know as an author\u2014we\u2019ve written, you have thousands of ideas, and you have to condense them to a few in each chapter. I thought it would help our parents, especially, as we\u2019re raising our kids. This is hopeful for a parent, for a family. There\u2019s really a rebirth in belief in God? Nobody\u2019s talking about this. You have chapter after chapter [where] you say, \u201cLet me talk about it in this area.\u201d \r\n\r\nYou\u2019re looking at the same thing I am; Chapter One: The Rise and Fall of New Atheism. What would you put on the bottom shelf for us?\r\n\r\nJustin: Okay, challenge accepted. Alright, New Atheism was a movement that claimed that God was dead, but by tearing God down, they failed to replace God with anything that people could believe in that could give them meaning in their life. That was the problem; Atheism itself can\u2019t give people a meaningful world view. In fact, New Atheism itself unraveled from the inside, because there was so much infighting between the leaders about where their movement should go. That, ultimately, was the reason it collapsed. \r\n\r\nThe problem is that we\u2019re still religious. Whether we\u2019re religious about Christianity or not, we\u2019ll be religious about something. Some people got religious about Atheism. In fact, the New Atheism really swept the board and meant that all kinds of other religious ideologies took the place of Christianity; but none of those work, and that\u2019s the problem. We\u2019re still left with the problem of, \u201cWhat do we believe in once we stop believing in God?\u201d\r\n\r\nI think, in a funny way, we had to get to the point of realizing that Atheism couldn\u2019t give us a worldview that made sense of our life for people to be ready to potentially go back to God. So, the rise and fall of New Atheism was an interesting moment in our culture, but, ultimately, it pointed us to the fact that we really can\u2019t live without something like God.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s interesting when you say that\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014hey, that was good.\r\n\r\nDave: That was good.\r\n\r\nAnn: That was really good.\r\n\r\nDave: Authors have to do that. You have to present to the publisher: \u201cThis is what this chapter\u2019s about,\u201d and you just did. Alright, Chapter Two: The New Conversation on God. \r\n\r\nJustin: Over the years, I noticed that the conversations I was hosting between Christians and Atheists were changing. No longer the bombastic debates between New Atheists and Christian thinkers, but actually interesting secular thinkers who were really valuing the God-question again. They weren\u2019t dismissing Christianity as a helpful way of understanding life. \r\n\r\nThey weren\u2019t necessarily Christians themselves, but they were opening the door to other people. This would include Jordan Peterson, whom we spoke about in an earlier conversation, but also someone like Tom Holland, not the Spiderman actor in the Marvel films, but a historian in the U.K. He runs a fantastically popular podcast called The Rest is History. \r\n\r\nI\u2019ve had a number of conversations with Tom Holland, who grew up, essentially, as a secular individual. He sort of had nominal Christian faith growing up, but it fizzled out by his teenage years. After he became a historian writing popular historical works, he investigated and researched the world of the Greeks and the Romans. \r\n\r\nHe found it exciting, but also completely alien to his own way of thinking, because this was a world where slavery was part of the economic status quo, where people could be sexual property, where the lives of women and children were very cheap, where the enslavement and killing of a million people by an emperor was a cause of triumph and celebration. He realized his own beliefs in equality, dignity, freedom, and human rights didn\u2019t come from the Greeks and the Romans, and they didn\u2019t come from science or Atheism. \r\n\r\nHe realized they came from the Christian revolution. That was the thing that had changed the world. Tom Holland has been saying ever since, as a secular person himself, [that] we believe in these things because of Jesus Christ, and a lot of his humanist friends are getting very annoyed with the fact that he\u2019s come to this conclusion. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nBut he\u2019s such an interesting example of the secular intellectuals who are coming to very Christian conclusions about who we are and why we believe what we believe. I believe we\u2019re at this moment where, actually, people are taking the Christian story seriously again. So, this chapter is about showing some of these key players who are involved in starting to talk about Christian faith in this way again.\r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s exciting.\r\n\r\nDave: Chapter Three: Shaped by the Christian Story. \r\n\r\nJustin: This is where I really go into depth on that story of Tom Holland, actually, because the way in which he has shown just how indebted western culture is to the Christian story is phenomenal. Things we take for granted today, like equality, dignity, [and] compassion, did not exist in other cultures in the past. \r\n\r\nOkay, if you go back to ancient Roman culture, many people are shocked to learn that it was a common practice, if a family had a girl that was unwanted\u2014perhaps they were looking for a boy, they could leave that girl on a rubbish tip to be eaten by wild animals. It beggars belief now! You would think, \u201cGosh, how on earth could they have done such a thing?\u201d But it was common practice back then. \r\n\r\nThere\u2019s a letter we have of a soldier who writes back to his wife at home and says, \u201cI hear you\u2019re pregnant. That\u2019s great. If it\u2019s a boy, wonderful. If it\u2019s a girl, expose it,\u201d which simply means to leave it. What changed? Why do we now think of that as an abhorrent practice? Christianity is what changed, specifically Judaism first, where there was this prolife ethic imbedded, the idea that people are made in the image of God; but the Christian church really took that thought and made it global. \r\n\r\nThey were the ones who began to start to rescue these children from these rubbish tips. They started to adopt these children. The early Christian church, it\u2019s been shown by sociologists like Rodney Stark, grew primarily because of the way it treated women and children. It was completely countercultural. We should embrace that. We should celebrate that Christians were the ones who treated women and children differently to anyone else. \r\n\r\nThey were the ones who started hospitals, who started schools, who started orphanages, who started to care for the most vulnerable and oppressed in our culture. And the reason we now take that for granted, that we should be doing these things, that we should look out for people, is because we\u2019re still fundamentally Christian in our instincts. But we\u2019ve forgotten the Christian story that gave us those instincts. \r\n\r\nThe point of all this is to say that, actually, when we meet our atheist and humanist friends, it\u2019s worth bearing this in mind: that to a large degree, their views about life, the value they put on justice and equality and human rights, it didn\u2019t come from their Atheism. It came from the Christian story, and that might just be the starting point to helping them realize that, despite everything, they\u2019re actually more Christian than they realize. \r\n\r\nThis was something Tom Holland famously said to me: he said, \u201cI began to realize that even though I don\u2019t believe the Christian story, in almost every way I am a Christian, because my moral instincts have been completely shaped by the Christian story.\u201d So, this chapter is really about helping people to realize that, whether they realize it or not, the Christian story is still an undercurrent in our culture. It\u2019s still there, and I believe that\u2019s why it could come back again.\r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s good thinking.\r\n\r\nDave: What a strong apologetic that is. That\u2019s powerful. It really is. Okay, Rediscovering the Bible.\r\n\r\nJustin: The Bible was one of the key things that the new Atheists sought to destroy. They thought, \u201cThis is an irrelevant, unreliable, pointless bit of ancient literature that\u2019s done a great deal of damage to the world.\u201d That was the story they were painting of the Bible. I think that\u2019s changing in our culture. I think people have realized that that\u2019s a simplistic and denigrating way of talking about Scripture. \r\n\r\nEven someone like Richard Dawkins, one of the most well-known Atheists in the world, actually helped to fund a campaign to see the King James version of the Bible put into every school in the U.K., because even he, as an atheist, understood the literary value of the Bible. Just think of the number of phrases that we use in everyday parlance that came from the Bible\u2014\u201cgoing the extra mile,\u201d the Good Samaritan\u2014these are just phrases that we use every day, but they came to us because of the Bible.\r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m kind of shocked by that; that he had Bibles put into the school for that reason.\r\n\r\nJustin: Yes, he did. He said he didn\u2019t believe what they said was true, [laughter] but he did understand that it was probably one of the greatest repositories of English language in the world. And it is simply true: you don\u2019t have to be a Christian to recognize the extraordinary literary value. There are probably three main things that have shaped the Western world in terms of literature: Milton, Shakespeare, and the Bible; but the Bible came before both Milton and Shakespeare. They were both drawing on the Bible.\r\n\r\nThe Bible simply is an extraordinarily fruitful document. It has not only shaped Western culture in terms of its literature and art for centuries, it\u2019s also been behind some of the greatest social movements in the world. The abolition of the slave trade was led by evangelicals who believed what the Bible said. It\u2019s been extraordinarily influential. \r\n\r\nThe problem is, when the new Atheists came along and again tried to tear it down, I don\u2019t think they really knew what they were dealing with, because people have tried to get rid of the Bible many times over the years. Voltaire, a couple of hundred years ago, was a skeptic Atheist in France, and he wrote: \u201cA hundred years from my day, the Bible will be seen as a museum piece, an antiquarian piece of writing.\u201d The irony was that a hundred years from his day, Voltaire\u2019s house was being used to print Bibles by the Evangelical Society of Geneva. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nThe point is, the Bible has this habit of, every time someone tries to tear it down, it comes back, because it actually has something rather unique about it. This is what I developed in the chapter. It actually has the ability to speak across many different times, places, and cultures. Yes, it is a book of lots of ancient, sometimes mysterious, writings that we struggle to understand, but actually, it has transformed every single culture that it has come into contact with. \r\n\r\nThere\u2019s something different, unusual, about this book. And when you start to uncover it, you start to realize just how powerful it is. So, I tried to do a bit of both in this chapter: show why the Bible is so foundational in our culture, but more than that, we can actually believe what is written in it as well.\r\n\r\nDave: I don\u2019t know if you have the energy to do three more chapters.\r\n\r\nJustin: Let\u2019s go for it. Let\u2019s try.\r\n\r\nDave: One of the things I was just thinking [was], if I\u2019m a parent and I have a teenage daughter or son who\u2019s asking a lot of questions about faith, I would put on this podcast right now\u2014we\u2019re 15, 16 minutes in\u2014and say, \u201cLet\u2019s listen to this interview, and let\u2019s talk about each one of these.\u201d It would be a great conversation for a parent to have with their son or daughter.\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m listening to you\u2014you could hit pause\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014good job putting it on the bottom shelf, too.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. You talk about bottom shelf. Boom!\r\n\r\nJustin: I\u2019m trying. I\u2019m trying to keep it bottom shelf.\r\n\r\nAnn: Good job.\r\n\r\nDave: The Alternative Story of Science.\r\n\r\nJustin: Again, this was a big theme of the New Atheists, and it was led by a lot of popular scientists like Richard Dawkins, saying, \u201cThe more we know about science, the less reason we have to believe in God.\u201d I believe that is a false story. In fact, if you look at what\u2019s been happening in science over the last century or so, the more we know about the universe and just what it took for us to be here in it, the more it looks like there\u2019s something like a God behind it. \r\n\r\nIt does not make sense to say that the universe is just a happy accident, and the fact that we\u2019re in it\u2014the odds are just dramatically stacked against that. And I\u2019ve been noticing more and more, again, of these secular thinkers asking similar questions. There\u2019s one called Paul Davies, who\u2019s a physicist at Arizona State University. He has been showing that, in all kinds of ways, our universe seemed to be set up to produce life. \r\n\r\nFor instance, there\u2019s the fact that there was a so-called \u201cBig Bang\u201d at some point; that\u2019s what our best physics seems to tell us, that at some point, everything physical sprang into existence, having not existed before. Now, that has a pretty big theological sort of implication to it. Where did it all come from? You have that. Then you have the fact that the universe, once it did suddenly appear from nowhere, had exactly the right fundamental constants, and the laws were precisely tuned to allow for life to develop. \r\n\r\nIt doesn\u2019t look like it had to be the way it is, but it just so happens that things like the force of gravity are just right, so that if it had been ever so slightly stronger, everything would have collapsed back in on itself; if it had been ever so slightly weaker, everything would have just gone out too quickly for chemicals, atoms, [and] galaxies to develop. Yet that force of gravity was so incredibly, finely, sensitively balanced, it would allow for you and me to be here as conscious living creatures. \r\n\r\nAnd then you have the fact that life somehow arose within this universe. Again, that was not a foregone conclusion when you look at the maps of what\u2019s involved for a DNA to exist, a self-replicating molecule. Again, someone like Paul Davies will say, \u201cNo, something else is going on here. You can\u2019t explain this in a purely materialistic way, just chance and time. That will not do it.\u201d \r\n\r\nSomeone like Paul Davies is saying, \u201cWhen I look at the way\u2014the directionality in the universe,\u201d he says, \u201cgoing from nothing to something, from something to matter, from matter to life, from life to conscious life, from conscious life to conscious life that can reflect on itself, i.e., you and me, and that comprehends its place in the universe,\u201d he says, \u201cthere\u2019s a directionality there. It seems like there\u2019s some kind of force behind the universe that\u2019s meaning for us to go somewhere. This isn\u2019t just a blind chance and luck.\u201d \r\n\r\nI think what Paul Davies, as a non-religious person, is describing there, is something that you find in the Bible called the \u201cLogos.\u201d It\u2019s this idea of a God that speaks order into chaos; that speaks life from nothing. It\u2019s the Word of Life. It\u2019s Jesus. I think, when you see a brilliant scientist like Paul Davies doing the best science, overlapping with a concept that is right there at the beginning of John, you have something very exciting on your hands. \r\n\r\nI think we\u2019re starting to see science and faith coming together in all kinds of interesting and fruitful ways that absolutely run against that New Atheist idea that science has somehow banished God. I think science is opening up the God-question as never before.\r\n\r\nDave: Alright. We\u2019re almost done. Mind, Meaning, and the Materialists.\r\n\r\nJustin: This is the most philosophical of all the chapters, and it\u2019s really talking about the fact that we live in an age where, again, the New Atheists told us that ultimately, we live in a mindless universe, a universe where everything is just a cause and effect, if you like. I think people have bought into this idea that we don\u2019t really have much agency in the universe. We\u2019re kind of a cog in a machine.\r\n\r\nI think that\u2019s the picture that\u2019s often been painted by scientists and philosophers: that ultimately, you didn\u2019t have much choice. Your genetics made you do it. You\u2019re just a sort of victim of your circumstances. What\u2019s interesting about that is, it\u2019s very difficult to get a meaningful life if you believe, actually, everything was predetermined in that way. And that\u2019s the strange contradiction at the heart of many of my Atheist and humanist friends. \r\n\r\nMany of them are these determinists. They believe, actually, everything was determined. You have no choice over the things you decide, the morality you hold; whether you chose Oreos or toast for breakfast in the morning. The universe actually decided that for you a long time ago. You are simply just the outworking of a set of physical responses and reactions. But then they also say, \u201cBut you should treat your neighbor kindly, and it\u2019s important that you think this about sexuality and not that.\u201d Well, where did they get that from? Because if everything is determined\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014right.\r\n\r\nJustin: \u2014I have no choice about the way I treat another person. I have no choice about the beliefs I hold. They were just handed down to me. But it gets even worse because, if that\u2019s all true, I had no choice about whether I believe in God or I\u2019m an Atheist. Actually, if you\u2019re an Atheist, you didn\u2019t come to that belief on the basis of reason and logic and working it out. It was just this causally determined process that the universe handed down to you.\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s a kind of vicious circle. If all my beliefs are simply foisted upon me by a purely physical process, how on earth can I have any confidence that they\u2019re true? Suddenly, the whole thing collapses on itself. This idea that we live in a deterministic universe where none of us actually have any choice over the things we say, think, or believe, is, ultimately, self-defeating. We do not live in such a universe. \r\n\r\nWe live in a universe where you do have freedom, and actually, the only way to understand that idea of freedom is if there\u2019s a God behind it. I believe there\u2019s a very strong, philosophical case that the best way of understanding why we can do reasoning, think, why we\u2019re moral creatures, and why it matters what we say, think and do, is because we have freedom. The only way you can make sense of that if there\u2019s a God Who guarantees that freedom. \r\n\r\nSo, this is the alternative story of mind, meaning, and the materialist; that actually we need that kind of freedom in the universe. And again, lots of interesting thinkers are starting to think that way, pushing against this idea that we live in this mindless, purely material universe. They\u2019re realizing that, actually, to make sense of love, meaning, morality, and reason itself, you have to have something like God behind the universe, and that\u2019s my case.\r\n\r\nDave: And that leads you to the last, The Rebirth of Belief in God. You don\u2019t need to say anything. You\u2019ve just done it! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: You really have built a case for the rebirth of belief in God.\r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s interesting, too. I already have these people in my mind that I\u2019m going to send this to.\r\n\r\nJustin: Great!\r\n\r\nAnn: I really do. I think all of us could think, \u201cOh, this will be so good for this friend, because they\u2019re asking these questions.\u201d\r\n\r\nJustin: I do tell a few stories in the final chapter of people like Paul Kingsnorth, whom I mentioned earlier, and others, for whom, actually, they\u2019ve discovered that we need something to believe in. We need a story. That\u2019s what helps humans to flourish. We all need a story to live in, and the problem is, that other story that Atheism told, about this being a meaningless universe, took away our story. \r\n\r\nThat\u2019s part of why we have a mental health crisis; people who don\u2019t know who they are, what they\u2019re supposed to believe in. We\u2019ve seen a rise in anxiety, depression, [and] suicide, and I think it\u2019s all tied into this idea that we\u2019ve lost a story that makes sense of who we are. We\u2019re trying lots of other stories, but they\u2019re failing us. \r\n\r\nI think, and I\u2019ve seen it in the lives of so many of these interesting converts I speak about in this final chapter, we are seeing a rebirth of belief in God, because people are discovering, \u201cWe need a story. the Christian story is the best, the greatest, story ever told, and it can work for people today, because it\u2019s true. \r\n\r\nI think God is doing something in our culture to say, \u201cYou\u2019ve tried everything else. It\u2019s time to try this again.\u201d Through these intellectuals, through these converts, and through these various bits of academia where I see a new story developing, we\u2019re starting to see that rebirth of belief in God.\r\n\r\nShelby: \u201cYou\u2019ve tried everything else, and it hasn\u2019t worked. Come to me.\u201d It reminds me of Jesus\u2019s words, \u201cIf anyone is thirsty, come to Me and drink.\u201d [John 7:37] Man, it seems like our culture is thirsty right now, huh? It\u2019s so good and so exciting to see what God is doing in our world to draw people to Himself.\r\n\r\nI\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Justin Brierley on FamilyLife Today. Justin has written a book called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God: Why New Atheism Grew Old and Secular Thinkers are Considering Christianity Again. It\u2019s a fascinating book. You can go online to pick up your copy at FamilyLifeToday.com and click on \u201cToday\u2019s Resources.\u201d Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\r\n\r\nYou know, I just want to take a quick second to say \u201cthank you\u201d if you gave to our matching program back in December. I\u2019m so grateful for your generosity because you are literally helping to make FamilyLife Today possible. And if you didn\u2019t get a chance to give, I just wanted to say \u201cthank you so much for listening.\u201d We\u2019re on to a new year, and I\u2019m so excited to see what God is going to do through this ministry.\r\n\r\nComing up tomorrow, Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski, two content strategists here at FamilyLife who have worked on Art of Marriage, are going to come into the studio like they own the joint, and they\u2019re going to flip the tables a bit and interview Dave and Ann Wilson, so the Wilsons can deliver some true wisdom for us. They\u2019re giving us pearls tomorrow, so you don\u2019t want to miss that.\r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280361","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280361"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280361"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280361"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280361"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280361"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280361"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280361"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}