{"id":280357,"date":"2024-01-09T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-01-09T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:15:39","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:15:39","slug":"how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Intentionally Listen: Kevin and Marcia Myers"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Would your spouse say they feel &#8220;heard&#8221;? Authors Kevin and Marcia Myers help unearth a new level of intimacy through the power of intentionally listening. Learn the strategies for navigating fights, skills of listening and resolving conflicts.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Would your spouse say they feel &#8220;heard&#8221;? Authors Kevin and Marcia Myers help unearth a new level of intimacy through the power of intentionally listening. Learn the strategies for navigating fights, skills of listening and resolving conflicts. Show Notes &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/07a6c4b8-7cac-4aaf-90bb-b154011ca867\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:51","filesize":"22.78M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9754],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280357","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","cwp_profile-kevin-and-marcia-myers","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280357\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280357\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"j02ELKRjNg\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers\/\">How to Intentionally Listen: Kevin and Marcia Myers<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-to-intentionally-listen-kevin-and-marcia-myers\/embed\/#?secret=j02ELKRjNg\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How to Intentionally Listen: Kevin and Marcia Myers&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"j02ELKRjNg\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012983"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/07a6c4b8-7cac-4aaf-90bb-b154011ca867\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:24:51"],"filesize":["22.78M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/themarriageadventure.com\/ep-60-interview-with-kevin-marcia-myers\/\">Listen tomore about Kevin and Marcia<\/a> and on Facebook <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/KevinMyersPK\">@KevinMyersPK.<\/a><br \/> And grab Kevin and Marcia Myers's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-second-happy\/\">The Second Happy: Seven Practices to Make Your Marriage Better Than Your Honeymoon<\/a><br \/> Want to hear more episodes by<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/kevin-and-marcia-myers\/\"> Kevin and Marcia Myers?, listen here!<\/a><br \/> Transform your marriage at half the cost! <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Weekend to Remember Spring Sale,<\/a> Jan 8-22, 2024\u2014your key to lasting love and connection.<br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/january-2024\/you-can-be-a-source-of-hope\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=January2024\">Give a gift today to help FamilyLife to give hope to more families<\/a>.<br \/> Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/> Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/> Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/> Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-01-09.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nHow to Intentionally Listen\r\n\r\nGuests:Kevin and Marcia Myers\r\n\r\nFrom the series:The Elephants in the Room (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:January 9, 2024\r\n\r\nKevin: About ten years in, we figured it out, and we wrote Fair Fight Rules. Now, we were learning them all along.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019ll give you the first\u2014just the beginning of the principle. When you\u2019re under pressure, and you have conflict, you want to be heard. The objective is not to be heard, but to hear. So, my job is to listen, and our rule is: I have not listened until she says I have.\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: I remember sitting at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage getaway two weeks before our wedding.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave: It was a phenomenal weekend. In fact, I\u2019ve got to say this before we jump in: if you want to go to a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember, sign up right now, because it\u2019s half off.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. They\u2019re happening right now.\r\n\r\nDave: We paid full price in 1980! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: We did! And you can get half off.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, and you can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com. I\u2019m telling you, it will literally change your marriage. \r\n\r\nBut we were sitting there, engaged; two weeks from that Saturday, we were going to be getting married. And I\u2019ll never forget, Dennis Rainey was on the stage\u2014and you know, at the time, President and Founder of FamilyLife; and he said something like this\u2014and I know exactly, because it\u2019s in the manual that we now teach.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: He said, \u201cConflict is common to all marriages.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And what did you think? \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cAll marriages go through\u2014\u201d Oh, what did you think?! I mean, we were sitting there, before we were getting married, and we both thought, \u201cNot our marriage!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I really thought, \u201cThere has been no one on the entire planet who has loved each other the way we do. [Laughter] No one!\u201d I think every couple thinks that: \u201cNothing compares to our love for one another.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: I remember sitting around, watching all these couples take notes! We didn\u2019t take any notes. [Laughter] I just remember thinking, \u201cThey don\u2019t love Jesus like we do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cThey obviously don\u2019t love each other like we do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cThey\u2019re not going into full-time ministry the way we are.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And then we got married. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, we did.\r\n\r\nDave: Was it a week?\r\n\r\nAnn: No, it was like\u2014we had a great first five months. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: We did?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave: Okay, so we\u2019ll say five months later. I mean, there were struggles; but we were fighting daily, if not hourly,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014within five months. And I think many marriages experience that. We\u2019ve got to talk about that!\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, I think, too, Dave\u2014I think a lot of couples get into marriage, thinking it\u2019s going to be great, and they don\u2019t have a handle on how to deal with conflict. \r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nAnn: We didn\u2019t. And that\u2019s what we learned at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. We actually pulled that manual out later.\r\n\r\nAnn: And we\u2019re going to get some help on conflict today as well.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, we\u2019ve got Kevin and Marcia Myers back in the studio with us. They wrote a book called The Second Happy, which is a great title for a marriage book. It\u2019s like, \u201cThere\u2019s another happy available to us?\u201d You know, we had the first happy, right?\r\n\r\nKevin: Right, right.\r\n\r\nDave: Then we have a second; but anyway, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Thank you! \r\n\r\nDave: Glad to have you.\r\n\r\nKevin: This is great!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Good to see you.\r\n\r\nDave: You know, it is interesting: a lot of people in the church tend to think that pastors\u2019 marriages are just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014perfect!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014wonderful. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Right. \r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019re like us! We\u2019ve said from the stage: \u201cWe have problems. We struggle.\u201d And they still sort of walk up to you [and say], \u201cYes, you have a little problem, but nothing like ours!\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cYou have conflict, but nothing like our conflict.\u201d One of the things you talk about in your book is how to do conflict well; so, let\u2019s talk about that.\r\n\r\nKevin: [Laughing] Because we were so good at it from the beginning! [Laughter] We could have taught the conference you attended, but we weren\u2019t invited. [Laughter] So far from the truth!\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, it\u2019s interesting, because earlier, you\u2019ve already talked about that, Marcia, you kind of shut down a little more in conflict.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: And Kevin\u2014I\u2019m guessing that you\u2019re coming in there, like pretty\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: I\u2019m afraid so. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014you\u2019re not afraid to deal with conflict.\r\n\r\nKevin: No!\r\n\r\nAnn: So, I\u2019m guessing that created some conflict? [Laughter]\r\n\r\nKevin: You are so discerning!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, exactly.\r\n\r\nDave: So, how did that go for you guys? How did you guys fight? Or how do you guys fight?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Pretty much\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014poorly, then!\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014what he said, yes! He, mostly, was on the attack. It\u2019s not that I can\u2019t hold my own, but in my own way. As I said before, I\u2019m stubborn; and also, the silent treatment kind of thing, you know? Where, then, \u201cI\u2019m going to ignore you.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, no!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave would do that to me. And that spurs on this, \u201cNo! We\u2019re going there.\u201d You\u2019re probably much better and more mature than I was.\r\n\r\nKevin: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. [Laughter] You give me the silent treatment, and that\u2019s a challenge.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes! That\u2019s me, too.\r\n\r\nKevin: I will steam roll you, and then I\u2019ll back off.\r\n\r\nMarcia: My best attack, I\u2019ll have to say, but not really godly, was on Sunday mornings when he was preaching,\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014oh, no.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014just having\u2014looking at him and staring at him, like with arms folded.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, wait, wait, wait. \r\n\r\nKevin: Okay, get this, Dave! Come on now.\r\n\r\nDave: You did this?\r\n\r\nMarcia: I did.\r\n\r\nDave: During the service?\r\n\r\nKevin: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: I did this, too. \r\n\r\nMarcia: There you go!\r\n\r\nAnn: One time, I sat in the back row, and I looked at him like, \u201cI don\u2019t even like the pastor of this church.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: She told me that when I got home. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: So, you\u2019re up there preaching, and you\u2019re in a conflict. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Oh!\r\n\r\nKevin: This is the part people don\u2019t understand when they say, \u201cWell, your marriage must be fine.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: I say, \u201cListen, we have learned how to look better than we live,\u201d and a lot of people have that art.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: And that\u2019s almost part of the pressure in pastoring, but let\u2019s not pretend it\u2019s limited to that.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: People know how to come to church and look better than they live.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, yes!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, gunny sacking conflict, or pushing it to the side, or just volcanically\u2014which, mine would be more volcanic.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nKevin: I would get pushed to rage, and I\u2019m going to be verbally aggressive; get it off my chest. Simultaneously [saying], \u201cYou ought to listen and perhaps agree with me.\u201d [Laughter] My conflict resolution style was: \u201cI\u2019m right. Listen, and you\u2019ll discover that. Agree with me, and we resolve conflict.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, \u201cThen it would all be over!\u201d \r\n\r\nKevin: For some reason\u2014I know people listening can\u2019t understand what I\u2019m talking about, because no couple has ever done this\u2014[Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014but I couldn\u2019t understand. I used to say to her, \u201cYou know, people will come and counsel with me.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: It\u2019s true!\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cThey want my advice!\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cThey want my advice, and you dismiss it. Isn\u2019t that a clue to you?\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cBecause I am smart and godly.\u201d \r\n\r\nKevin: Keep going.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u201cAnd people love me!\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cAnd wise and discerning. They love me. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s wrong with you.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: So, what have you learned about conflict?\r\n\r\nKevin: Probably the most helpful thing\u2014I don\u2019t know; I\u2019m overstating, perhaps\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014one of the most.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014the most used thing by other people\u2014that they say has helped them the most\u2014is the Fair Fight Rules.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, good.\r\n\r\nKevin: About ten years in, we figured it out, and we wrote Fair Fight Rules. Now, we were learning them all along.\r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019ll give you the first\u2014just the beginning of the principle: \r\n\r\nWhen you\u2019re under pressure, and you have conflict, you want to be heard. What\u2019s, understandably, broken all of us is that you think communication requires you being heard, and that conflict resolution begins with them hearing you. The difficulty is, once you\u2019ve been heard, you\u2019re emotionally done. And that\u2019s the beginning of real communication and conflict resolution. \r\n\r\nThe objective is not to be heard, but to hear. That has been said through Scripture; that has been said in leadership circles; that\u2019s been said at marriage conferences. This is easy to say; it\u2019s incredibly complex to do.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right. \r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking of James 1.\r\n\r\nKevin: Right!\r\n\r\nAnn: That we should be \u201cquick to listen.\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: Ann, do you know what we do? We take Scriptures like that, and we read them to our spouse. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: The whole point of it was for you to take that in.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I would read it and say, \u201cMarcia, be quick to listen.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cSlow to speak and slow to anger.\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cHoney, that\u2019s what\u2019s broken right here.\u201d \r\n\r\nEverybody has that challenge on one side or the other. So, we set up what we call rules; fair fights.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: You watch them boxing or whatever fighting style you prefer that\u2019s in the legal realm. They set a time; they\u2019ve got rules. We have pre-fight set-up, and then we have \u201cfair fight rules.\u201d It\u2019s three phases:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s communication, and that\u2019s four rounds.\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s compromise, and that\u2019s four rounds. \r\n\r\nAnd if necessary, counseling; four rounds.\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s not overly complicated; but if you don\u2019t know how to resolve conflict, you have to be mechanical before you\u2019re emotional, or you\u2019ll never build the capacity to resolve it. And that\u2019s what\u2019s hard.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: You get emotional because, \u201cThis is intense!\u201d And this is a person who\u2019s supposed to love you, and you don\u2019t feel loved. You feel rejected, or dismissed, or unheard; or \u2018You don\u2019t understand,\u2019 \u2018You don\u2019t care!\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nThe first segment of communication\u2014and it\u2019s because, she\u2019s already said, I\u2019m forceful, and I am. [Laughter] I talk too much, and I know it; and she talks too little, and she knows it. Now, listen\u2014if you\u2019re a couple, and you\u2019re listening to this\u2014part of communication is being honest with who you are.\r\n\r\nAnn: And you\u2019re really looking at your differences and, now, you\u2019re honoring them,  right?\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cYou\u2019re just different than I am, and that\u2019s okay.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes. \r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cGod\u2019s made you a certain way.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nAnn: And we all have things that have happened in our past that create some wounds that, maybe, shut us down or make us loud. I think that\u2019s a good thing to know, and it\u2019s okay.\r\n\r\nMarcia: That\u2019s true; very good.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, for us then, the rules, Ann, had to be\u2014under \u201cCommunication\u201d\u2014four rounds. The first round is, \u201cShe speaks; I listen.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: And you can say nothing?\r\n\r\nKevin: She always speaks first, no matter who calls the Fair Fight. So, if we want to fight on something, and we\u2019ve got conflict, somebody has to call a Fair Fight. They have to explain it in about sixty seconds\u2014what it is\u2014we set a date and a time.\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay, give us an example; show us.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Coming home late.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, what would you say?\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u201cKevin, I want to have a fight.\u201d And you would be like, \u201cWhaaat?\u201d And I would say\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014I like how you do him: \u201cWhaaat?\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nKevin: Pretty accurate!\r\n\r\nMarcia: But honestly, almost always, whoever calls for the Fair Fight, the other one does not want to do it.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: But because it\u2019s in the rules, we will. We obey the rules.\r\n\r\nAnn: So, you say, \u201cI want to have a fair fight.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay.\r\n\r\nMarcia: The one who wants the fight has to declare what it is. I would say, \u201cYou\u2019re always coming home late. I have the dinner made, and we\u2019re waiting for you. I have children. They need to eat. We need to work this out.\u201d And then we say, \u201cOkay.\u201d Instead of going into the fight right then, we decide when we want to fight.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s really important. I cannot respond. That\u2019s one of the rules. I don\u2019t legitimize or dismiss her request.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: I even try not to roll my eyes. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, that\u2019s good, because body language\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014tells a lot. \r\n\r\nKevin: And so, we have to get out the calendar and decide: \u201cWhen are we going to fight?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: I mean, do you try to do it soon instead of waiting a week or waiting a day?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes, but if calendars are heavy, and with kids\u2019 activities, the kids have to be in bed for us at that season of time. We have to be emotionally capable to engage. Sometimes, it\u2019s days down the road. It has to be concentrated time.\r\n\r\nAnn: One of the things that would be good about this is you have time to pray.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Absolutely!\r\n\r\nAnn: Now, you could go one of two ways. I used to build my case in that time, like, \u201cI\u2019m going to say this, and he\u2019s going to say this; but I\u2019m going to win, because I\u2019m going to do this!\u201d \r\n\r\nBut what I\u2019ve learned\u2014and I\u2019m sure you guys, too\u2014that gives you time [to say], \u201cLord, check my heart. How should I say this? How should I bring it up? Is there anything I\u2019m missing?\u201d I like that it gives you a little time; that\u2019s good.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, that\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nKevin: And it requires that of you. If you follow Christ, the Holy Spirit\u2019s going to do that, whether you\u2019re asking Him to or not.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s just who He is.\r\n\r\nDave: Now, is it hard to not go into it right there? Because if Marcia\u2014I mean, Marcia used a word that we say at FamilyLife\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014\u201calways\u201d\/\u201cnever.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cDon\u2019t use \u2018always.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: So, if Ann would say, \u201cYou\u2019re always late,\u201d I would\u2014you know, \u201cWe can talk about this tomorrow, but I\u2019m not always\u2026,\u201d you know?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: So, do you find yourself\u2014like I have to exercise self-control\u2014I do want to do it right now, and it\u2019s not going to go well if I do it right now. So, you learn; you practice; you build the habit.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s mechanical\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014versus emotional.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: When we say, \u201cYou have to walk the mechanical process, not emotional.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s [emotional] what makes it nearly impossible to resolve conflict.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: True.\r\n\r\nKevin: Because when you express your emotions, you are rarely loving. Love is a discipline; it\u2019s not an emotion.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: To value someone is a discipline; it\u2019s a choice you make. I have surrendered that we are one; and therefore, I care about this, because she cares about this. Therefore, she gets to call the fight. We set the time; she starts. Even if I call the fight, she starts.\r\n\r\nDave: Wait, wait, wait. Why does she start?\r\n\r\nKevin: She always starts because I\u2019m too forceful. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, so it\u2019s a choice in your marriage.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: I truly am\u2014 \r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014in our marriage. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s true for everybody.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, okay.\r\n\r\nKevin: Here\u2019s what we\u2019ve discovered: I cannot start without me solving it while I start; and I have got to learn to shut up, and she\u2019s got to learn to speak up. We\u2019re not going to build resolved conflict, authentic love, true companionship, and intimacy if we don\u2019t learn to communicate. Solving conflict is at the heart of communication. \r\n\r\nAnn: I really like that you\u2019re even\u2014it\u2019s a good conversation of who would start.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking about that for us. I\u2019m sure people are listening, thinking, \u201cHmm, who would start in our relationship?\u201d I think you would start.\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m glad you think that, [Laughter] because I was thinking the same thing.\r\n\r\nKevin: Dave, congratulations.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Woo!\r\n\r\nDave: There we go. \r\n\r\nOkay; so now, when you come to the actual fight, walk us through it.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Like he said, I would go first, no matter what.\r\n\r\nAnn: I don\u2019t understand how you do that. If you have an issue, Kevin, and you\u2019ve already stated what it\u2019s about, how would Marcia\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014start it?\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014start it, if she doesn\u2019t really know everything?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Nine times out of ten, if you have a conflict in your relationship, you both know it, and you both have a different perspective. So, when I call for a fight, and I say, \u201cI want to talk about finances. I want to talk about your spending.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, maybe you would know! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: I do, exactly!\r\n\r\nKevin: She immediately has an opinion. I want to talk about our parenting of Julisa, our daughter, our second child; and I have to say something about that. I say, \u201cI think we\u2019re over-disciplining her on this,\u201d or \u201cI think we\u2019re not addressing this,\u201d or \u201cI think we\u2019re over-investing in this,\u201d or \u201cThis is frustrating me. It seems like you\u2019re dismissing me.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: So, you\u2019ve given her enough that she knows.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Got it.\r\n\r\nKevin: I\u2019ve given her a statement, but I can\u2019t go into it. There\u2019s a difference between giving context and trying to win. I have to give context. We already know this. This is not: \u201cOh, we don\u2019t know we have conflict!\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes. We know we have conflict.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. So, even though you brought it up, she\u2019s still going to start.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s how we\u2019ve done it.\r\n\r\nMarcia: And then after the first person gives their perspective, the other person\u2014instead of just automatically rebutting\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014has to tell you back what they said. \r\n\r\nKevin: My job is to listen, and our rule is I have not listened until she says I have. We have literally had fights, where it took an hour for us to do round one: for her to speak, and me to listen until she said, \u201cYou have heard me, head and heart. You have said what I said, and you\u2019ve said it with the right heart.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: So, you restate back\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014and you say, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing,\u201d and you say, \u201cNo, no, no, no; that\u2019s not what I\u2019m saying,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014right.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014that\u2019s it!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014until you get to, \u201cYes, you\u2019ve heard me, and you understand me.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Now, you can go to the next round.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: That process, however long it takes in the early stages of learning how to communicate, always shaves some of the rough edges off from a guy like me.\r\n\r\nAnn: From anyone, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Whoever has this dynamic in them, the Holy Spirit will soften your edges.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Because we can\u2019t go on. Now, it\u2019s at that moment that you just want to be able to say, \u201cWell, there you go! You can\u2019t\u2014!\u201d And I want to just run!\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you quit on communication, and you let conflict reign in your relationship, you\u2019re going to be alone; but you chose it. This is hard work. And we\u2019ve been doing this for a lot of years, so we don\u2019t have to do it with the mechanics that we\u2019re talking about right now,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014but we did for some years.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So then, it\u2019s my turn once she says, \u201cI\u2019ve heard you.\u201d \r\n\r\nWell, she sometimes has to write her thoughts out to bring to me. I don\u2019t have to write mine out! [Laughter] I have them in my head. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cLet\u2019s go! I\u2019m ready.\u201d \r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: But it\u2019s a good idea sometimes probably\u2014 \r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014oh, it\u2019s very helpful!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014to write it out. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes!\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So then, I get to share my perspective, and she has to respond until I say she\u2019s understood me, head and heart. \r\n\r\nAnd when you have walked through those four, if you will, \u201crounds,\u201d you have accomplished communication. Everybody wants to solve a problem before they understand the problem. It\u2019s often broken, because you want to compromise before you communicate. My job is not to say, \u201cAlright, here\u2019s what I think the problem is, and here\u2019s what we\u2019ll do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Would you like to do that?\r\n\r\nKevin: Every single time. [Laughter] In fact, sometimes I start with, \u201cHere\u2019s what we should do, and here\u2019s why.\u201d [Laughter] I start with the solution.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, this discipline of communication [is] before you find a solution. The Phase Two is four rounds of compromise. She has to give a solution. Then, I make sure that I understand, and I give a solution. Then we negotiate until we find one.\r\n\r\nMarcia: And it does kind of help you understand the other person, too,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014as you\u2019re doing it, because [it\u2019s] something you wouldn\u2019t have thought of. I\u2019m not Kevin, and he\u2019s not Marcia; but you say, \u201cOh, well, that\u2019s how he thinks!\u201d And now you understand how he thinks, so that the next time you have a conflict, you have that piece of: \u201cOh, he usually thinks this way, so maybe the conflict isn\u2019t what I think it is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: You kind of mix the two. \r\n\r\nAnn: And the beauty is you\u2019re really getting to know each other.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right; exactly!\r\n\r\nAnn: Exactly what you\u2019re saying, Marcia. You\u2019re understanding one another so much better.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Ann, you asked her at the beginning to give an example of a fight.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Let\u2019s play this out for people. Remember the, \u201cYou\u2019re always home late?\u201d Let\u2019s take them to our compromise. \r\n\r\nMarcia: After we went through the rounds of communication, and then we went to compromise, he, of course, made his points of the fact that sometimes he has to go. He\u2019s a pastor!\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: He has appointments or something; an emergency crops up. He can\u2019t help that. But there are other times when he just needs to finish something, you know? He wants to do it and wants to get it done. So, we decided that we would set a specific time for dinner, and he promised he would be home.\r\n\r\nKevin: I agreed with her. I said: \r\n\r\n\u201cI agree with you. You make a meal\u2014we\u2019re trying to build family; we\u2019re in a season of building family\u2014and we said we value family above the work I do. I\u2019m valuing my work above our family, because we have a very small slot in which to engage in family togetherness. It\u2019s between 5:30 and 7:00, and I\u2019m blowing it. \r\n\r\nI will get up earlier. I will get these sections of things done for an hour or two at work, alone in the office, so that by the time I make it to the end of the day, I have margin. I\u2019ll be home at 5:30, and you can count on me. Now, if I\u2019m not, it\u2019s because there\u2019s an emergency. I\u2019ll call.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019m going to move it from the exception to the rule, and vice versa, which means, as a rule, I was late, and I made that an exception. That honors her; that requires change for me; that puts our family in the place of value that we both said it had. And it literally changed the way I do my calendar and life. It changed the way I think!\r\n\r\nMarcia: And I felt like, when he was late, there was a good reason.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: So, it didn\u2019t create the same conflict or exasperation that it would have.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you solve conflict, you also solve future conflict.Marcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you actually resolve conflict\u2014\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014right, absolutely.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014you set up a marriage where you have less and less conflict over time, because you literally build mutual honoring, mutual understanding, and mutual grace. We have all sorts of grace, because we know the other person is committed to one another. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, and I love the concept you developed of \u201cmechanical before emotional.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Because we often get in a fight, and we\u2014I\u2019ve done this, like, \u201cForget the mechanical, we need to just\u2014\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because emotions take over.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: And it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, no!\u201d You can\u2019t forget that! That is critical. It\u2019s like\u2014obviously, as a guy who played football and was around the NFL forever, it\u2019s out of bounds.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And when you step out of bounds, the play is over. There are rules\u2014mechanical\u2014and they help you get to compromise. They help you get to resolution. As you said so well, that helps you in the future.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: I mean, I\u2019m thinking of a couple right now that has not been able to fight well. You have just given them tools to help them fight well. If you forget, listen to this again. Better yet, get the book, The Second Happy. Read through the chapters together and say, \u201cLet\u2019s implement this in our marriage. I think it will take us to a whole other place.\u201d\r\n\r\nConflict is every day. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s part of every relationship, every church, every team, every business, every family; and we don\u2019t get any training on how to do it well. Today\u2019s been a training session on how to do it well. Thank you. This has been awesome.\r\n\r\nShelby: You know, not many of us probably ever had someone say, \u201cHey, [do you] want to get some help on how to argue better?\u201d We might hear that and think, \u201cThat\u2019s weird!\u201d But \u201cYes, actually! Help me fight well in my marriage.\u201d Well, the help has been delivered today, and Dave just helped us to see the gift that we\u2019ve received.\r\n\r\nI\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kevin and Marcia Myers on FamilyLife Today. Kevin and Marcia have written a book called The Second Happy: Seven Practices to Make Your Marriage Better than Your Honeymoon. Now, they\u2019re going to go through a lot of what we talked about today in that book to help you disagree well, help you remove pretense from your relationship, pick fair fights, and all that kind of great stuff.\r\n\r\nYou can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to get your copy by clicking on the \u201cToday\u2019s Resources\u201d link, or you can get the link in the show notes; or you can give us a call. Our number is 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.\r\n\r\nYou know, we\u2019ve been talking about marriages a lot today, so I have a question for you: how would you honestly rate your marriage, on a scale from one to ten? That number might really scare you, or it might make you excited; regardless of where you are, I want to encourage you to check out FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Here\u2019s what a wife of 27 years said about her experience at the Weekend to Remember; she said this:\r\n\r\n\u201cI found my best friend again. Just getting away together and focusing only on us is just what we needed. The sessions were timed perfectly, ordered intentionally, and I feel new hope going home.\u201d\r\n\r\nIsn\u2019t that incredible, to hear how God transformed that marriage in one short weekend? Well, we\u2019ve been doing this for the last 40 years, and we\u2019ve seen so many marriages impacted for the glory of God and the health of relationships. We want to see that for you, too! Now through January 22nd, registrations are half-off; that\u2019s right, 50% off!\r\n\r\nYou can visit WeekendtoRemember.com, find a date and a location that works for you, and save 50% off. I really, honestly believe it\u2019s going to be worth it. Why? Because your marriage is worth it! Check that out. \r\n\r\nNow, tomorrow, Kevin and Marcia Myers are going to be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to discuss the challenges and baggage in marriage. We all bring baggage in, so they\u2019re going to talk about it. We hope you\u2019ll join us.\r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-280357.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-280357.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 100%;width: 100%;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container.alignfull.uagb-block-e11dbe9f > 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your spouse say they feel \"heard\"? Authors Kevin and Marcia Myers help unearth a new level of intimacy through the power of intentionally listening. Learn the strategies for navigating fights, skills of listening and resolving conflicts. Show Notes ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/themarriageadventure.com\/ep-60-interview-with-kevin-marcia-myers\/\">Listen tomore about Kevin and Marcia<\/a> and on Facebook <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/KevinMyersPK\">@KevinMyersPK.<\/a><br \/> And grab Kevin and Marcia Myers's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/the-second-happy\/\">The Second Happy: Seven Practices to Make Your Marriage Better Than Your Honeymoon<\/a><br \/> Want to hear more episodes by<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/kevin-and-marcia-myers\/\"> Kevin and Marcia Myers?, listen here!<\/a><br \/> Transform your marriage at half the cost! <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Weekend to Remember Spring Sale,<\/a> Jan 8-22, 2024\u2014your key to lasting love and connection.<br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/january-2024\/you-can-be-a-source-of-hope\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=January2024\">Give a gift today to help FamilyLife to give hope to more families<\/a>.<br \/> Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/> <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/> Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/> Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/> Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-01-09.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nHow to Intentionally Listen\r\n\r\nGuests:Kevin and Marcia Myers\r\n\r\nFrom the series:The Elephants in the Room (Day 2 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:January 9, 2024\r\n\r\nKevin: About ten years in, we figured it out, and we wrote Fair Fight Rules. Now, we were learning them all along.\r\n\r\nAnn: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019ll give you the first\u2014just the beginning of the principle. When you\u2019re under pressure, and you have conflict, you want to be heard. The objective is not to be heard, but to hear. So, my job is to listen, and our rule is: I have not listened until she says I have.\r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nAnn: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: I remember sitting at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage getaway two weeks before our wedding.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave: It was a phenomenal weekend. In fact, I\u2019ve got to say this before we jump in: if you want to go to a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember, sign up right now, because it\u2019s half off.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. They\u2019re happening right now.\r\n\r\nDave: We paid full price in 1980! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: We did! And you can get half off.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, and you can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com. I\u2019m telling you, it will literally change your marriage. \r\n\r\nBut we were sitting there, engaged; two weeks from that Saturday, we were going to be getting married. And I\u2019ll never forget, Dennis Rainey was on the stage\u2014and you know, at the time, President and Founder of FamilyLife; and he said something like this\u2014and I know exactly, because it\u2019s in the manual that we now teach.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: He said, \u201cConflict is common to all marriages.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: And what did you think? \r\n\r\nDave: \u201cAll marriages go through\u2014\u201d Oh, what did you think?! I mean, we were sitting there, before we were getting married, and we both thought, \u201cNot our marriage!\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: I really thought, \u201cThere has been no one on the entire planet who has loved each other the way we do. [Laughter] No one!\u201d I think every couple thinks that: \u201cNothing compares to our love for one another.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: I remember sitting around, watching all these couples take notes! We didn\u2019t take any notes. [Laughter] I just remember thinking, \u201cThey don\u2019t love Jesus like we do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cThey obviously don\u2019t love each other like we do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cThey\u2019re not going into full-time ministry the way we are.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And then we got married. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, we did.\r\n\r\nDave: Was it a week?\r\n\r\nAnn: No, it was like\u2014we had a great first five months. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: We did?\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nDave: Okay, so we\u2019ll say five months later. I mean, there were struggles; but we were fighting daily, if not hourly,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014within five months. And I think many marriages experience that. We\u2019ve got to talk about that!\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, I think, too, Dave\u2014I think a lot of couples get into marriage, thinking it\u2019s going to be great, and they don\u2019t have a handle on how to deal with conflict. \r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nAnn: We didn\u2019t. And that\u2019s what we learned at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. We actually pulled that manual out later.\r\n\r\nAnn: And we\u2019re going to get some help on conflict today as well.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, we\u2019ve got Kevin and Marcia Myers back in the studio with us. They wrote a book called The Second Happy, which is a great title for a marriage book. It\u2019s like, \u201cThere\u2019s another happy available to us?\u201d You know, we had the first happy, right?\r\n\r\nKevin: Right, right.\r\n\r\nDave: Then we have a second; but anyway, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Thank you! \r\n\r\nDave: Glad to have you.\r\n\r\nKevin: This is great!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Good to see you.\r\n\r\nDave: You know, it is interesting: a lot of people in the church tend to think that pastors\u2019 marriages are just\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014perfect!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014wonderful. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Right. \r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019re like us! We\u2019ve said from the stage: \u201cWe have problems. We struggle.\u201d And they still sort of walk up to you [and say], \u201cYes, you have a little problem, but nothing like ours!\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cYou have conflict, but nothing like our conflict.\u201d One of the things you talk about in your book is how to do conflict well; so, let\u2019s talk about that.\r\n\r\nKevin: [Laughing] Because we were so good at it from the beginning! [Laughter] We could have taught the conference you attended, but we weren\u2019t invited. [Laughter] So far from the truth!\r\n\r\nAnn: Well, it\u2019s interesting, because earlier, you\u2019ve already talked about that, Marcia, you kind of shut down a little more in conflict.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: And Kevin\u2014I\u2019m guessing that you\u2019re coming in there, like pretty\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: I\u2019m afraid so. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014you\u2019re not afraid to deal with conflict.\r\n\r\nKevin: No!\r\n\r\nAnn: So, I\u2019m guessing that created some conflict? [Laughter]\r\n\r\nKevin: You are so discerning!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, exactly.\r\n\r\nDave: So, how did that go for you guys? How did you guys fight? Or how do you guys fight?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Pretty much\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014poorly, then!\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014what he said, yes! He, mostly, was on the attack. It\u2019s not that I can\u2019t hold my own, but in my own way. As I said before, I\u2019m stubborn; and also, the silent treatment kind of thing, you know? Where, then, \u201cI\u2019m going to ignore you.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, no!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Dave would do that to me. And that spurs on this, \u201cNo! We\u2019re going there.\u201d You\u2019re probably much better and more mature than I was.\r\n\r\nKevin: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. [Laughter] You give me the silent treatment, and that\u2019s a challenge.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes! That\u2019s me, too.\r\n\r\nKevin: I will steam roll you, and then I\u2019ll back off.\r\n\r\nMarcia: My best attack, I\u2019ll have to say, but not really godly, was on Sunday mornings when he was preaching,\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014oh, no.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014just having\u2014looking at him and staring at him, like with arms folded.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, wait, wait, wait. \r\n\r\nKevin: Okay, get this, Dave! Come on now.\r\n\r\nDave: You did this?\r\n\r\nMarcia: I did.\r\n\r\nDave: During the service?\r\n\r\nKevin: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: I did this, too. \r\n\r\nMarcia: There you go!\r\n\r\nAnn: One time, I sat in the back row, and I looked at him like, \u201cI don\u2019t even like the pastor of this church.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: She told me that when I got home. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: So, you\u2019re up there preaching, and you\u2019re in a conflict. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Oh!\r\n\r\nKevin: This is the part people don\u2019t understand when they say, \u201cWell, your marriage must be fine.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: I say, \u201cListen, we have learned how to look better than we live,\u201d and a lot of people have that art.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: And that\u2019s almost part of the pressure in pastoring, but let\u2019s not pretend it\u2019s limited to that.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: People know how to come to church and look better than they live.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, yes!\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, gunny sacking conflict, or pushing it to the side, or just volcanically\u2014which, mine would be more volcanic.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nKevin: I would get pushed to rage, and I\u2019m going to be verbally aggressive; get it off my chest. Simultaneously [saying], \u201cYou ought to listen and perhaps agree with me.\u201d [Laughter] My conflict resolution style was: \u201cI\u2019m right. Listen, and you\u2019ll discover that. Agree with me, and we resolve conflict.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, \u201cThen it would all be over!\u201d \r\n\r\nKevin: For some reason\u2014I know people listening can\u2019t understand what I\u2019m talking about, because no couple has ever done this\u2014[Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014but I couldn\u2019t understand. I used to say to her, \u201cYou know, people will come and counsel with me.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: It\u2019s true!\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cThey want my advice!\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cThey want my advice, and you dismiss it. Isn\u2019t that a clue to you?\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cBecause I am smart and godly.\u201d \r\n\r\nKevin: Keep going.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u201cAnd people love me!\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cAnd wise and discerning. They love me. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s wrong with you.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: So, what have you learned about conflict?\r\n\r\nKevin: Probably the most helpful thing\u2014I don\u2019t know; I\u2019m overstating, perhaps\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014one of the most.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014the most used thing by other people\u2014that they say has helped them the most\u2014is the Fair Fight Rules.\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, good.\r\n\r\nKevin: About ten years in, we figured it out, and we wrote Fair Fight Rules. Now, we were learning them all along.\r\n\r\nDave: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019ll give you the first\u2014just the beginning of the principle: \r\n\r\nWhen you\u2019re under pressure, and you have conflict, you want to be heard. What\u2019s, understandably, broken all of us is that you think communication requires you being heard, and that conflict resolution begins with them hearing you. The difficulty is, once you\u2019ve been heard, you\u2019re emotionally done. And that\u2019s the beginning of real communication and conflict resolution. \r\n\r\nThe objective is not to be heard, but to hear. That has been said through Scripture; that has been said in leadership circles; that\u2019s been said at marriage conferences. This is easy to say; it\u2019s incredibly complex to do.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right. \r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking of James 1.\r\n\r\nKevin: Right!\r\n\r\nAnn: That we should be \u201cquick to listen.\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: Ann, do you know what we do? We take Scriptures like that, and we read them to our spouse. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: The whole point of it was for you to take that in.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I would read it and say, \u201cMarcia, be quick to listen.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: \u201cSlow to speak and slow to anger.\u201d\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cHoney, that\u2019s what\u2019s broken right here.\u201d \r\n\r\nEverybody has that challenge on one side or the other. So, we set up what we call rules; fair fights.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: You watch them boxing or whatever fighting style you prefer that\u2019s in the legal realm. They set a time; they\u2019ve got rules. We have pre-fight set-up, and then we have \u201cfair fight rules.\u201d It\u2019s three phases:\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s communication, and that\u2019s four rounds.\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s compromise, and that\u2019s four rounds. \r\n\r\nAnd if necessary, counseling; four rounds.\r\n\r\nIt\u2019s not overly complicated; but if you don\u2019t know how to resolve conflict, you have to be mechanical before you\u2019re emotional, or you\u2019ll never build the capacity to resolve it. And that\u2019s what\u2019s hard.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: You get emotional because, \u201cThis is intense!\u201d And this is a person who\u2019s supposed to love you, and you don\u2019t feel loved. You feel rejected, or dismissed, or unheard; or \u2018You don\u2019t understand,\u2019 \u2018You don\u2019t care!\u2019\u201d \r\n\r\nThe first segment of communication\u2014and it\u2019s because, she\u2019s already said, I\u2019m forceful, and I am. [Laughter] I talk too much, and I know it; and she talks too little, and she knows it. Now, listen\u2014if you\u2019re a couple, and you\u2019re listening to this\u2014part of communication is being honest with who you are.\r\n\r\nAnn: And you\u2019re really looking at your differences and, now, you\u2019re honoring them,  right?\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cYou\u2019re just different than I am, and that\u2019s okay.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes. \r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201cGod\u2019s made you a certain way.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nAnn: And we all have things that have happened in our past that create some wounds that, maybe, shut us down or make us loud. I think that\u2019s a good thing to know, and it\u2019s okay.\r\n\r\nMarcia: That\u2019s true; very good.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, for us then, the rules, Ann, had to be\u2014under \u201cCommunication\u201d\u2014four rounds. The first round is, \u201cShe speaks; I listen.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: And you can say nothing?\r\n\r\nKevin: She always speaks first, no matter who calls the Fair Fight. So, if we want to fight on something, and we\u2019ve got conflict, somebody has to call a Fair Fight. They have to explain it in about sixty seconds\u2014what it is\u2014we set a date and a time.\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay, give us an example; show us.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Coming home late.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, what would you say?\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u201cKevin, I want to have a fight.\u201d And you would be like, \u201cWhaaat?\u201d And I would say\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014I like how you do him: \u201cWhaaat?\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nKevin: Pretty accurate!\r\n\r\nMarcia: But honestly, almost always, whoever calls for the Fair Fight, the other one does not want to do it.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: But because it\u2019s in the rules, we will. We obey the rules.\r\n\r\nAnn: So, you say, \u201cI want to have a fair fight.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Okay.\r\n\r\nMarcia: The one who wants the fight has to declare what it is. I would say, \u201cYou\u2019re always coming home late. I have the dinner made, and we\u2019re waiting for you. I have children. They need to eat. We need to work this out.\u201d And then we say, \u201cOkay.\u201d Instead of going into the fight right then, we decide when we want to fight.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s really important. I cannot respond. That\u2019s one of the rules. I don\u2019t legitimize or dismiss her request.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: I even try not to roll my eyes. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, that\u2019s good, because body language\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014tells a lot. \r\n\r\nKevin: And so, we have to get out the calendar and decide: \u201cWhen are we going to fight?\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: I mean, do you try to do it soon instead of waiting a week or waiting a day?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes, but if calendars are heavy, and with kids\u2019 activities, the kids have to be in bed for us at that season of time. We have to be emotionally capable to engage. Sometimes, it\u2019s days down the road. It has to be concentrated time.\r\n\r\nAnn: One of the things that would be good about this is you have time to pray.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Absolutely!\r\n\r\nAnn: Now, you could go one of two ways. I used to build my case in that time, like, \u201cI\u2019m going to say this, and he\u2019s going to say this; but I\u2019m going to win, because I\u2019m going to do this!\u201d \r\n\r\nBut what I\u2019ve learned\u2014and I\u2019m sure you guys, too\u2014that gives you time [to say], \u201cLord, check my heart. How should I say this? How should I bring it up? Is there anything I\u2019m missing?\u201d I like that it gives you a little time; that\u2019s good.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, that\u2019s true.\r\n\r\nKevin: And it requires that of you. If you follow Christ, the Holy Spirit\u2019s going to do that, whether you\u2019re asking Him to or not.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: That\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s just who He is.\r\n\r\nDave: Now, is it hard to not go into it right there? Because if Marcia\u2014I mean, Marcia used a word that we say at FamilyLife\u2014\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014\u201calways\u201d\/\u201cnever.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014\u201cDon\u2019t use \u2018always.\u2019\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: So, if Ann would say, \u201cYou\u2019re always late,\u201d I would\u2014you know, \u201cWe can talk about this tomorrow, but I\u2019m not always\u2026,\u201d you know?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: So, do you find yourself\u2014like I have to exercise self-control\u2014I do want to do it right now, and it\u2019s not going to go well if I do it right now. So, you learn; you practice; you build the habit.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s mechanical\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014versus emotional.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: When we say, \u201cYou have to walk the mechanical process, not emotional.\u201d\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s [emotional] what makes it nearly impossible to resolve conflict.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: True.\r\n\r\nKevin: Because when you express your emotions, you are rarely loving. Love is a discipline; it\u2019s not an emotion.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: To value someone is a discipline; it\u2019s a choice you make. I have surrendered that we are one; and therefore, I care about this, because she cares about this. Therefore, she gets to call the fight. We set the time; she starts. Even if I call the fight, she starts.\r\n\r\nDave: Wait, wait, wait. Why does she start?\r\n\r\nKevin: She always starts because I\u2019m too forceful. [Laughter]\r\n\r\nDave: Oh, so it\u2019s a choice in your marriage.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: I truly am\u2014 \r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014in our marriage. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s true for everybody.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, okay.\r\n\r\nKevin: Here\u2019s what we\u2019ve discovered: I cannot start without me solving it while I start; and I have got to learn to shut up, and she\u2019s got to learn to speak up. We\u2019re not going to build resolved conflict, authentic love, true companionship, and intimacy if we don\u2019t learn to communicate. Solving conflict is at the heart of communication. \r\n\r\nAnn: I really like that you\u2019re even\u2014it\u2019s a good conversation of who would start.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking about that for us. I\u2019m sure people are listening, thinking, \u201cHmm, who would start in our relationship?\u201d I think you would start.\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m glad you think that, [Laughter] because I was thinking the same thing.\r\n\r\nKevin: Dave, congratulations.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Woo!\r\n\r\nDave: There we go. \r\n\r\nOkay; so now, when you come to the actual fight, walk us through it.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Like he said, I would go first, no matter what.\r\n\r\nAnn: I don\u2019t understand how you do that. If you have an issue, Kevin, and you\u2019ve already stated what it\u2019s about, how would Marcia\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014start it?\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014start it, if she doesn\u2019t really know everything?\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Nine times out of ten, if you have a conflict in your relationship, you both know it, and you both have a different perspective. So, when I call for a fight, and I say, \u201cI want to talk about finances. I want to talk about your spending.\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Oh, maybe you would know! [Laughter]\r\n\r\nMarcia: I do, exactly!\r\n\r\nKevin: She immediately has an opinion. I want to talk about our parenting of Julisa, our daughter, our second child; and I have to say something about that. I say, \u201cI think we\u2019re over-disciplining her on this,\u201d or \u201cI think we\u2019re not addressing this,\u201d or \u201cI think we\u2019re over-investing in this,\u201d or \u201cThis is frustrating me. It seems like you\u2019re dismissing me.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: So, you\u2019ve given her enough that she knows.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: Got it.\r\n\r\nKevin: I\u2019ve given her a statement, but I can\u2019t go into it. There\u2019s a difference between giving context and trying to win. I have to give context. We already know this. This is not: \u201cOh, we don\u2019t know we have conflict!\u201d [Laughter]\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes. We know we have conflict.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes. So, even though you brought it up, she\u2019s still going to start.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: That\u2019s how we\u2019ve done it.\r\n\r\nMarcia: And then after the first person gives their perspective, the other person\u2014instead of just automatically rebutting\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014has to tell you back what they said. \r\n\r\nKevin: My job is to listen, and our rule is I have not listened until she says I have. We have literally had fights, where it took an hour for us to do round one: for her to speak, and me to listen until she said, \u201cYou have heard me, head and heart. You have said what I said, and you\u2019ve said it with the right heart.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: So, you restate back\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014and you say, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing,\u201d and you say, \u201cNo, no, no, no; that\u2019s not what I\u2019m saying,\u201d\u2014\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014right.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014that\u2019s it!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014until you get to, \u201cYes, you\u2019ve heard me, and you understand me.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Now, you can go to the next round.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: That process, however long it takes in the early stages of learning how to communicate, always shaves some of the rough edges off from a guy like me.\r\n\r\nAnn: From anyone, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Whoever has this dynamic in them, the Holy Spirit will soften your edges.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Because we can\u2019t go on. Now, it\u2019s at that moment that you just want to be able to say, \u201cWell, there you go! You can\u2019t\u2014!\u201d And I want to just run!\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you quit on communication, and you let conflict reign in your relationship, you\u2019re going to be alone; but you chose it. This is hard work. And we\u2019ve been doing this for a lot of years, so we don\u2019t have to do it with the mechanics that we\u2019re talking about right now,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014but we did for some years.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So then, it\u2019s my turn once she says, \u201cI\u2019ve heard you.\u201d \r\n\r\nWell, she sometimes has to write her thoughts out to bring to me. I don\u2019t have to write mine out! [Laughter] I have them in my head. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes!\r\n\r\nKevin: \u201cLet\u2019s go! I\u2019m ready.\u201d \r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: But it\u2019s a good idea sometimes probably\u2014 \r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014oh, it\u2019s very helpful!\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014to write it out. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Oh, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes!\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So then, I get to share my perspective, and she has to respond until I say she\u2019s understood me, head and heart. \r\n\r\nAnd when you have walked through those four, if you will, \u201crounds,\u201d you have accomplished communication. Everybody wants to solve a problem before they understand the problem. It\u2019s often broken, because you want to compromise before you communicate. My job is not to say, \u201cAlright, here\u2019s what I think the problem is, and here\u2019s what we\u2019ll do.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Would you like to do that?\r\n\r\nKevin: Every single time. [Laughter] In fact, sometimes I start with, \u201cHere\u2019s what we should do, and here\u2019s why.\u201d [Laughter] I start with the solution.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: So, this discipline of communication [is] before you find a solution. The Phase Two is four rounds of compromise. She has to give a solution. Then, I make sure that I understand, and I give a solution. Then we negotiate until we find one.\r\n\r\nMarcia: And it does kind of help you understand the other person, too,\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014as you\u2019re doing it, because [it\u2019s] something you wouldn\u2019t have thought of. I\u2019m not Kevin, and he\u2019s not Marcia; but you say, \u201cOh, well, that\u2019s how he thinks!\u201d And now you understand how he thinks, so that the next time you have a conflict, you have that piece of: \u201cOh, he usually thinks this way, so maybe the conflict isn\u2019t what I think it is.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: You kind of mix the two. \r\n\r\nAnn: And the beauty is you\u2019re really getting to know each other.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right; exactly!\r\n\r\nAnn: Exactly what you\u2019re saying, Marcia. You\u2019re understanding one another so much better.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Ann, you asked her at the beginning to give an example of a fight.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nKevin: Let\u2019s play this out for people. Remember the, \u201cYou\u2019re always home late?\u201d Let\u2019s take them to our compromise. \r\n\r\nMarcia: After we went through the rounds of communication, and then we went to compromise, he, of course, made his points of the fact that sometimes he has to go. He\u2019s a pastor!\r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: He has appointments or something; an emergency crops up. He can\u2019t help that. But there are other times when he just needs to finish something, you know? He wants to do it and wants to get it done. So, we decided that we would set a specific time for dinner, and he promised he would be home.\r\n\r\nKevin: I agreed with her. I said: \r\n\r\n\u201cI agree with you. You make a meal\u2014we\u2019re trying to build family; we\u2019re in a season of building family\u2014and we said we value family above the work I do. I\u2019m valuing my work above our family, because we have a very small slot in which to engage in family togetherness. It\u2019s between 5:30 and 7:00, and I\u2019m blowing it. \r\n\r\nI will get up earlier. I will get these sections of things done for an hour or two at work, alone in the office, so that by the time I make it to the end of the day, I have margin. I\u2019ll be home at 5:30, and you can count on me. Now, if I\u2019m not, it\u2019s because there\u2019s an emergency. I\u2019ll call.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: But I\u2019m going to move it from the exception to the rule, and vice versa, which means, as a rule, I was late, and I made that an exception. That honors her; that requires change for me; that puts our family in the place of value that we both said it had. And it literally changed the way I do my calendar and life. It changed the way I think!\r\n\r\nMarcia: And I felt like, when he was late, there was a good reason.\r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nMarcia: So, it didn\u2019t create the same conflict or exasperation that it would have.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you solve conflict, you also solve future conflict.Marcia: Right.\r\n\r\nKevin: When you actually resolve conflict\u2014\r\n\r\nMarcia: \u2014right, absolutely.\r\n\r\nKevin: \u2014you set up a marriage where you have less and less conflict over time, because you literally build mutual honoring, mutual understanding, and mutual grace. We have all sorts of grace, because we know the other person is committed to one another. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, and I love the concept you developed of \u201cmechanical before emotional.\u201d\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: Because we often get in a fight, and we\u2014I\u2019ve done this, like, \u201cForget the mechanical, we need to just\u2014\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because emotions take over.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Right.\r\n\r\nDave: And it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, no!\u201d You can\u2019t forget that! That is critical. It\u2019s like\u2014obviously, as a guy who played football and was around the NFL forever, it\u2019s out of bounds.\r\n\r\nKevin: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And when you step out of bounds, the play is over. There are rules\u2014mechanical\u2014and they help you get to compromise. They help you get to resolution. As you said so well, that helps you in the future.\r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: I mean, I\u2019m thinking of a couple right now that has not been able to fight well. You have just given them tools to help them fight well. If you forget, listen to this again. Better yet, get the book, The Second Happy. Read through the chapters together and say, \u201cLet\u2019s implement this in our marriage. I think it will take us to a whole other place.\u201d\r\n\r\nConflict is every day. \r\n\r\nMarcia: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: It\u2019s part of every relationship, every church, every team, every business, every family; and we don\u2019t get any training on how to do it well. Today\u2019s been a training session on how to do it well. Thank you. This has been awesome.\r\n\r\nShelby: You know, not many of us probably ever had someone say, \u201cHey, [do you] want to get some help on how to argue better?\u201d We might hear that and think, \u201cThat\u2019s weird!\u201d But \u201cYes, actually! Help me fight well in my marriage.\u201d Well, the help has been delivered today, and Dave just helped us to see the gift that we\u2019ve received.\r\n\r\nI\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kevin and Marcia Myers on FamilyLife Today. Kevin and Marcia have written a book called The Second Happy: Seven Practices to Make Your Marriage Better than Your Honeymoon. Now, they\u2019re going to go through a lot of what we talked about today in that book to help you disagree well, help you remove pretense from your relationship, pick fair fights, and all that kind of great stuff.\r\n\r\nYou can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to get your copy by clicking on the \u201cToday\u2019s Resources\u201d link, or you can get the link in the show notes; or you can give us a call. Our number is 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.\r\n\r\nYou know, we\u2019ve been talking about marriages a lot today, so I have a question for you: how would you honestly rate your marriage, on a scale from one to ten? That number might really scare you, or it might make you excited; regardless of where you are, I want to encourage you to check out FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Here\u2019s what a wife of 27 years said about her experience at the Weekend to Remember; she said this:\r\n\r\n\u201cI found my best friend again. Just getting away together and focusing only on us is just what we needed. The sessions were timed perfectly, ordered intentionally, and I feel new hope going home.\u201d\r\n\r\nIsn\u2019t that incredible, to hear how God transformed that marriage in one short weekend? Well, we\u2019ve been doing this for the last 40 years, and we\u2019ve seen so many marriages impacted for the glory of God and the health of relationships. We want to see that for you, too! Now through January 22nd, registrations are half-off; that\u2019s right, 50% off!\r\n\r\nYou can visit WeekendtoRemember.com, find a date and a location that works for you, and save 50% off. I really, honestly believe it\u2019s going to be worth it. Why? Because your marriage is worth it! Check that out. \r\n\r\nNow, tomorrow, Kevin and Marcia Myers are going to be back with Dave and Ann Wilson to discuss the challenges and baggage in marriage. We all bring baggage in, so they\u2019re going to talk about it. We hope you\u2019ll join us.\r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280357","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280357"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280357"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280357"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280357"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280357"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280357"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280357"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}