{"id":280327,"date":"2024-02-22T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-02-22T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/"},"modified":"2025-04-30T13:04:04","modified_gmt":"2025-04-30T17:04:04","slug":"theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/","title":{"rendered":"Theology: Why Should I Care? Jen Wilkin &#038; J.T. English"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Somewhere in the middle of text notifications and disturbing headlines, &#8216;theology&#8217; might feel missable. But is it? Jen Wilkin and J.T. English discovers the significance of theology, its role in church and family discipleship, and why everyone is a theologian.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Somewhere in the middle of text notifications and disturbing headlines, &#8216;theology&#8217; might feel missable. But is it? Jen Wilkin and J.T. English discovers the significance of theology, its role in church and family discipleship, and why everyone is a theolo&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/c16b0990-1fd2-4d98-a638-b154011c40e5\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:28","filesize":"27.02M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-02-22 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2172],"podcast_series":[8734],"cwp_profile":[9922,3337],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280327","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-christian-theology","podcast_series-theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","cwp_profile-j-t-english","cwp_profile-jen-wilkin","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280327\/theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280327\/theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"sKf3c4oFIu\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/\">Theology: Why Should I Care? 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English! Discover more on Jen Wilkin at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jenwilkin.net\/\">jenwilkin.net<\/a> and learn more about J.T. English's ministry, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.storylinechurch.net\/about-jt\">Storyline Church <\/a> and listen to their latest podcast together, <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/1274228164\">Knowing Faith <\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jen Wilkin and J.T. English's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/you-are-a-theologian\/\">You are a Theologian: An Invitation to Know and Love God Well<\/a> in our shop.<br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Theology in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sandbox-theology\/\">Sandbox Theology<\/a>.<br \/>\nThis week, for a donation of any size, we'll send you <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/february-2024\/the-worry-free-parent\/\">The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can Too by Sissy Goff's<\/a> our way of saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/familylife-today-2\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=FLToday\">Donate to FamilyLife Today!<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-22.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Theology: Why Should I Care?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jen Wilkin and J.T. English<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Theology: Why Should I Care? (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 22, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We had people in our church who could tell you exactly what they thought about whether you should baptize infants or believers;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014people who could tell you exactly about what style of worship we should be using; and people who could tell you exactly who they thought you should vote for in the next presidential election; but they were functional heretics, in many senses, when it came to orthodox belief.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, on my very first road trip with the Detroit Lions, as their chaplain\u2014it was a preseason game in Seattle, so long flight to Seattle\u2014we\u2019re flying back to Detroit after\u2014I think we won!\u2014but who cares! Preseason; it didn\u2019t matter. I\u2019m not kidding: we were probably 30-40 minutes out from Detroit, and our plane gets hit by lightning.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Never had that happen. My dad\u2019s an airline pilot: never [experienced that]. Something just jarred the plane. The pilot came on\u2014because when you\u2019re on a charter plane, it\u2019s like you\u2019re talking to each other\u2014he said, \u201cJust to let you know: we were hit by lightning, and it could happen again.\u201d All of a sudden, all of these guys around me start yelling at me: \u201cPastor!\u201d \u201cChaplain! You got to pray!\u201d [Laughter] They\u2019re literally yelling out; they wanted me to pray out loud.<\/p>\n<p>I thought it was so interesting that they turned to me, because I\u2019m\u2014I sort of look at them like, \u201cWhy would you\u2014?\u201d And they said, \u201cYou\u2019re closer to God than we are, because you\u2019re a chaplain; you\u2019re a pastor.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cAm I any closer than anybody else?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s an interesting point.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, the question is: \u201cAren\u2019t we all pastors?\u201d \u201cAren\u2019t we all\u2014?\u201d Today, we\u2019re going to find out!<\/p>\n<p>We have two authors who wrote a book, that says we are all theologians, called You Are a Theologian. It\u2019s by Jen Wilkin and\u2014I didn\u2019t know this was your former boss\u2014J.T. English. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, we can talk about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yes! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would love to talk about that. But first, J.T. has never been here. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Thank you so much. I\u2019m really glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you know where you are? Do you know what we do?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: First time here, yes. I know what you do; I\u2019ve looked it up. And Jen gave me the lowdown this morning. She\u2019s the pro. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jen\u2019s a pro. She\u2019s been with us before.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about how you guys work together. This gives us a little bit of your bio anyway.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; I mean, Jen and I worked together for six years at The Village Church. I showed up\u2014she\u2019d done a women\u2019s ministry event at the previous church we were at, and my wife went to it. [She] would come home crying every single day, like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to hear this Jen Wilkin teach.\u201d I said, \u201cShe can\u2019t be that good.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cShe\u2019s pretty magnificent.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I listened to a few. This was before I was on staff at The Village.<\/p>\n<p>I showed up at TVC. I went to Jen\u2019s office. I said, \u201cAre you Jen Wilkin?\u201d She said, \u201cAre you J.T.?\u201d We struck up a friendship. She was working in a different department at the time. I was hired to do some discipleship and oversee some of our learning environments. \u201cThe first thing I want to do:\u201d\u2014I said\u2014\u201cwould you come work with me?\u201d She did!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow! You were at The Village Church until last week.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I was. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How many years?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Twelve years on staff. I\u2019d been at The Village for sixteen years. Almost 12 years on staff, and the last 6 years, serving on the Executive Leadership team. It\u2019s been a great run, and I loved doing it. I\u2019m really ready to focus more on what\u2019s going on with my kids and grandkids, and my parents, and maybe have some thinking space for writing another book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Good for you. Jen, how many Bible studies do you think you\u2019ve written? Do you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I think I\u2019ve published eight or nine at this point, but I\u2019ve written more than that. Those are just the ones that I have gotten out into the world. And then, we\u2019ve written\u2014we did a ton of team writing of studies at The Village as well, for the men\u2019s and women\u2019s Bible studies they have.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I love how you had to think: \u201cI think it\u2019s eight or nine.\u201d We have to go\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and how many books?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI think it\u2019s two.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I was going to say, \u201c70.\u201d It feels like more than the books of the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It does feel like 70.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I bet, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Okay. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: J.T., give us a little bit of your story: married, kids?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Married, kids; yes, my best friend is my wife, Macy. She comes from a ministry background. She\u2019s the first Christian I met after I came to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, that\u2019s convenient.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And so, he married her. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: And so it\u2019s like: \u201cYou! I think you\u2019re amazing. You love Jesus, and you\u2019re beautiful.\u201d In all seriousness, I have learned more about the Lord from my wife than anybody else. She walks with Jesus in some really deep ways.<\/p>\n<p>We have two kiddos: Thomas and Bailey, currently eight and six years old. Just talking with Jen this morning, it\u2019s the sweetest part of my life right now\u2014great family\u2014we\u2019re out on a block\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014great ages, too, aren\u2019t they?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, my gosh. It\u2019s just amazing. We\u2019re having a ton of fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You aren\u2019t making them CSU fans, are you?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, yes. They even know the fight song.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I figured. [Laughter] That\u2019s great! The Rams.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jen, you\u2014kids and grandkids\u2014how many?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, Jeff and I have been married 30 years this past summer. We have five kids, and then, we have three grandchildren so far. We are fruitful and multiplicative [Laughter], so who knows what will happen in the next year or so; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And now, Grandma\u2019s going to be present. That\u2019s pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay; so, you write this book called You Are a Theologian\u2014which, obviously, as I talked at the beginning, when the players called me out to pray\u2014my perspective is different than theirs. Mine is: \u201cEvery member a minister.\u201d You probably said that at church: \u201cIf you are a Christ-follower, you have gifts. It might not be a shepherding, pastoral gift; but in a sense, you are a pastor. So, I think you are a theologian.\u201d Most people don\u2019t think that.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They see your title like, \u201cNot me. I\u2019m not a theologian. You guys are; you are professional ministers and vocational workers, but I\u2019m not a theologian.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Obviously, what is your message?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; I mean, I think there are a few things to say here. I would say here, first, Jen and I tried to write the book that I wish somebody would have handed me right after I came to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Yes. When I came to faith\u2014and I had no resources\u2014that sophomore that I already shared about, I said, \u201cCould you give me some resources?\u201d He handed me two; he handed me Max Lucado\u2019s In the Grip of Grace\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014which was amazing. It\u2019s this beautiful book about God\u2019s grace. He also handed me Wayne Grudem\u2019s Systematic Theology. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: That\u2019s like: \u201cThese two things are different.\u201d [Laughter] Helpful in their own context, but different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think you read one of them all the way through it. The other, not so much.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes, I really wanted to know theology, even though I didn\u2019t know what that was. I knew that it was going to help me understand God better, but it was intimidating. It was a long book, and this is supposed to be an introduction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: We realized, \u201cThere\u2019s probably not a resource out there for people who not ever thought about themselves as theologians.\u201d The other thing we tried to accomplish in the book\u2014that, Jen, I\u2019d love for you to talk about\u2014is, what does it mean when we say, \u201cYou are a theologian?\u201d What is theology?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking, Jen\u2014as you answer that question, I\u2019m thinking\u2014of moms listening, like, \u201cShould I listen to this one? I\u2019m raising my kids. I don\u2019t have any time for theology.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re cooking, right now, in the corner of the kitchen.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cThis has nothing to do with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That was me in a lot of ways, other than the fact that I started teaching in the local church. I was very aware that I didn\u2019t know what I needed to know to be able to stand up and meet any kind of requirement that James 3 might put on teachers, being judged more strictly.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t know where to go. In the same way that this is a book that J.T. needed, it\u2019s a book that I needed. I began to discover theological categories; although, I don\u2019t know that I would have known to call them that. My husband was listening to a radio program, where they were teaching on some things, and we were having conversations. For my 30th birthday, he gave me Louis Berkhof\u2019s Systematic Theology, because he\u2019s a die-hard romantic. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I dug in.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was a birthday gift.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I dug in.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you like it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I used it on an as-needed basis. It was like, if I was teaching on a particular thing, I would duck in and grab what I needed; but the idea of a systematic way of approaching the way that we thought about theology was not something that I understood until years later. I wrote two books on the doctrine of God, not even knowing that I should call them the doctrine of God.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m the average learner, in the church, who was wanting to teach and didn\u2019t have what I needed to be able to do what I should to pass on a good deposit. You know, I still\u2014J.T. has a PhD in Trinitarian Theology; I have an English degree, so, I still\u2014have to psych myself up to say, \u201cNo, I am a theologian.\u201d I do understand it to be true, because that word, \u201ctheology,\u201d is a combination of two words: \u201ctheo,\u201d which is God (Theos). Say it in your\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: You got it: Theos.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And then, logos, meaning that we have knowledge or words about God. That\u2019s what a theologian is, which means that, even if you\u2019re an atheist or agnostic, you\u2019re a theologian. I have an agnostic friend, who is actually quite religious in the way that he talks about God not being knowable.<\/p>\n<p>We all have thoughts about God. It\u2019s a question of whether Christians have distinctly Christian thoughts about God. That\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping to accomplish with the book is to help the average learner\u2014and we always use that term without any negative connotation\u2014but to help the average learner in the pews to understand the historic Christian faith that is their legacy; not only that it\u2019s their legacy, but it is their charge to transmit to the next generation. We have concerns that we\u2019re not actually being able to do that well, based on some of the statistics that are out there right now about people\u2019s knowledge of just basic theology.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are those? Can you share some of those statistics?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I thought you\u2019d never ask, Ann. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: She\u2019s always ready with these. But every year\u2014ever since 2016 (actually, I think it\u2019s every two years)\u2014a group, Ligonier and Lifeway, co-ministry partners, comes out with a study they call \u201cThe State of Theology.\u201d They are talking about the basics of Christianity. What is important to highlight here is, we\u2019re not talking about second-tier\/third-tier issues that Christians might have slight disagreements, but we\u2019re talking about things that Christians have agreed upon for 2,000 years and that the Bible is really clear about.<\/p>\n<p>Here are a few examples:<\/p>\n<p>Jen: They surveyed both unbelievers, which is interesting to me; unbelievers and evangelicals. We know the unbelievers\u2014I can\u2019t do a whole lot to help them with theology, but as someone who is leading in a church, I absolutely want to help believers.<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cGod learns and adapts to different circumstances\u201d; so, that means, \u201cIs God immutable or not?\u201d right? 48 percent of evangelicals agree that: \u201cYes, God changes. He learns and adapts.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cEveryone is born innocent in the eyes of God,\u201d 65 percent of evangelicals agreed with that statement.<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cGod accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,\u201d 56 percent of evangelicals agreed.<\/p>\n<p>And then, in response to the statement: \u201cJesus was a great teacher, but he was not God,\u201d 43 percent of evangelicals agreed. That statistic had risen from 30 percent only two years earlier.<\/p>\n<p>The problem is not just existing. It is getting worse. What we saw, even in our own local church setting\u2014J.T. was one of the first people to point this out to me\u2014was that we had people in our church who could tell you exactly what they thought about whether you should baptize infants or believers;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014people who could tell you exactly what they thought about what style of worship we should be using; and people who could tell you exactly what they thought you should vote for in the next presidential election; but they were functional heretics, in many senses, when it came to orthodox belief. We have trained people. It\u2019s just a question of whether we have trained them into historic understanding of the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Those numbers are scary\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014scary.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but not surprising.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not shocked. I don\u2019t know why.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m guessing some of our listeners listened to those and thought, \u201cHmm, I wonder what I think?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not even sure where they would stand on those questions.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We like to make clear that, if the people who are sitting in the pews don\u2019t know the answers to those questions, it\u2019s not because they have failed.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That is something that we, as people who are training people in the local church, need to ask: \u201cWhy is this not happening in our churches?\u201d It doesn\u2019t do any good to point to people who are sitting in the pews, and say, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you know this yet?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that we really want to see is a rebirth of places in the church, where people are sitting and discussing and learning these ideas so that we can pass along the generational goodness of this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember, in seminary, hearing this quote: \u201cIf people are falling asleep during the sermon, wake up the preacher.\u201d [Laughter] Have you heard that one?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s good!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s sort of what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But you\u2019re saying\u2014and you open the book with this statement\u2014that one of the things it feels like the church has missed is the Great Commission.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it isn\u2019t just making converts; but talk about this, because you talk about [how] we have not made disciples.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes, at the heart of learning that you are a theologian and have thoughts about God\u2014that\u2019s really what it means to be a disciple, to be a learner of the way of Jesus Christ, who is God Himself and God embodied. I think one of the things about discipleship, and that we\u2019ve neglected the theological aspect of discipleship, is that people are intimidated by it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: It\u2019s something that, even sharing those stats, maybe, you don\u2019t know where you stand on some of those questions. We\u2019ve kind of closed the door for some people on discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>Really, what we\u2019re hoping this book does is to say, \u201cIt\u2019s okay that you don\u2019t know the answers to these questions right now, but we\u2019d like to come along as guides and help you, and help your church, find the right theological answers to these questions. It\u2019s not an invitation to get a theology quiz right. It\u2019s an invitation to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s okay to be wrong about stuff. How often do I, when I\u2019m teaching in the life of the local church, get a question from somebody, and I don\u2019t know the answer? It\u2019s okay to say, \u201cI don\u2019t know,\u201d but we want to have the kinds and churches and ministries that say, \u201cI don\u2019t know the answer to that, but let\u2019s go find out together,\u201d because that\u2019s what discipleship is. It\u2019s a life-long journey of following the way of Jesus and learning to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What would you say to the person who heard those stats and said, \u201cThat\u2019s not that big a deal. Why is it that important that I know theology, that I know doctrine?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: The reason that the Christian church has endured for 2,000 years is because there has been a faithful work to transmit what we know to be true in the Bible from one generation to the next. And yet, we find ourselves, in this generation, with what is very likely unprecedented levels of biblical and theology illiteracy. They\u2019re existing in a time where we don\u2019t just have a Bible literacy or a theological literacy crisis; that is a subset of a general literacy crisis. We have a generation of people who have, perhaps, not been trained how to think about difficult issues of any kind.<\/p>\n<p>You add to that, that in the church, the discipleship model that we have gravitated toward over the past 30 or 40 years has been heavily focused on building community as its primary virtue or its primary goal; which is great, we want community in our churches, but when community is the highest stated goal of a gathering, then teaching is going to be a difficult presupposition. It\u2019s going to be something that is going to be done to a degree, but, perhaps, not to the degree that it should.<\/p>\n<p>And then, you add to that, that within the church, what we have seen is what J.T. and I have called the \u201cExpert\/Amateur Divide,\u201d which is the expert who stands on the platform and, passively, the amateur in the pew receives teaching or a way to think from that person. But it\u2019s not dialogic, and it\u2019s not invitational. In other words, there\u2019s no back and forth, and the person on the platform is always going to hold the space of expert, and the person in the pew is not receiving tools that moves [him or her] toward the person who is on the platform.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t want to go to a church that doesn\u2019t have community as one of its highest stated goals.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I just don\u2019t want every space to have that as its highest stated goal.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: The question that you asked is a question that we get all the time from people: \u2018Why does this matter to me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Or sometimes when we\u2019re teaching these concepts, people will say, \u201cIs it really important that I be precise about this?\u201d In our relationship with God, we want to say precision matters, because relationship with Him matters. Anybody that we love, we want to be growing in our relationship with them, our knowledge of them and our understanding of them. I\u2019ve been married to Macy now for 16 years. I know her better now than I did 16 years ago. Lord willing, I will know her in even deeper ways 16 years from now.<\/p>\n<p>So theology matters because God matters; because we love Him, we want to know Him; we want to be in relationship with Him. To suggest: \u201cDo we really need to know these things about God?\u201d suggests that you don\u2019t believe a deep relationship with God is essential to the Christian faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m looking at you two. You have seven kids between the two of you, with grandkids!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Where do you get that math? That\u2019s pretty good.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I had to add real quickly. [Laughter] Yes, we think that\u2019s right. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: With grandkids as well.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: J.T. thought there was an extra one for a second. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Talk to the parents whose kids are going through so much in terms of cultural discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why is it important for them? I\u2019m thinking they\u2019re like, \u201cHey, guys, I don\u2019t have time for this. Do you know what my life is like? I\u2019m working and trying to do all these things.\u201d Talk to them [about] why it\u2019s important for them to know this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for the families, for the parents.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes, based on what\u2019s happening in our culture.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I think it\u2019s important for us to be very clear: you can\u2019t not be a disciple of something.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There it is.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Everybody is being discipled. You\u2019re being discipled, perhaps, by an ideology, or by culture, by sports\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014TikTok.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014or TikTok. [Laughter] Whatever you\u2019re consuming\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014Twitter, big time.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Present company excepted. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Whatever you\u2019re consuming, you\u2019re being shaped and formed by it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: One of the first things I think is good for parents to know is: \u201cYou, yourselves, and your kids or your grandkids are being discipled. So, the question is: \u2018What are you being discipled by?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And then, you think about, if you have six-and-a-half days of the week that you\u2019re discipled by things that are not theologically informed, and then you have maybe half a day, at most, where you are sitting and passively receiving teaching, rather than being in a dialogic space, what is the likelihood that you will be more formed by that half of a day than you will by the rest of the days of the week that you are elsewhere?<\/p>\n<p>I know the cycle on this. I know that, when you have small children, you have frequency of times to have these conversations, but not a lot of depth. And then, I know that as they get older, those lines get crisscrossed and you end up having fewer times where you\u2019re talking about things, but the opportunity for greater depth. So, even parents with small children can start having good conversations around good categories that are pointing toward how those conversations are going to go when their kids are older.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Not only that, but your children want to be able to look to you and know: \u201cOkay, my parents have thought about this, and whatever the counter argument is for what I\u2019m hearing at the lunch table, they can help me think through it.\u201d Not in [an attitude of], \u201cThe culture is terrible, and I hate everybody at the lunch table kind of way, but in a \u2018Hey, yes! We\u2019re aliens and strangers. And here\u2019s why you feel different when you\u2019re in those conversations than the other kids do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Theology is basically a way of thinking in an organized manner about what the Bible says. It\u2019s not adding to the Bible; it\u2019s not different than the Bible. It\u2019s basically almost like SparkNotes. Is that terrible to say that? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I probably wouldn\u2019t say that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I understand what you\u2019re saying. One of the examples that you used is that it\u2019s kind of like an organizing system\u2014like a file system\u2014for how the Bible is thinking.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: One of the things that we try to do in the book is show that theology is really about asking and answering the questions the Bible invites us to ask and answer. Things like:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWho is God?\u201d The Bible speaks to that. We should categorize how the Bible talks about that;<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWhat is God like? [What are] His attributes?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWho are we? What does it mean to be an image bearer?\u201d It\u2019s hard to imagine a more fundamental question for our society today about what it means to be created in God\u2019s image.<\/p>\n<p>And also, to answer the question: \u201cWhat\u2019s gone wrong with the world?\u201d We all know there\u2019s a fundamental sense of brokenness. How do we categorize the way the Bible talks about this?<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWhat is God doing in the world? How is He making things right?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Questions help us categorize ways of thinking that the Bible gives answers to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Actually, as you were saying that, J.T., I was thinking, \u201cThere are listeners thinking, \u2018Can you answer some of those right now?\u2019 [Laughter] Because I know you walk through chapters.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Jen\u2019s got some SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, [Laughter] SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got the SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes. Apparently, I should have stuck with the illustration I gave in the book. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>No, but just a really practical example of how, in a family setting, a parent who understands these important questions, and understands not just the questions, but the order in which we think through them\u2014[that] matters as well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s going to change the way that you think about your children. We mentioned, in that Great Commission comment, that perhaps we have been more concerned about making converts than we have disciples. I know a lot of Christian parents who are very concerned about making converts of their children and are, perhaps, thinking they shouldn\u2019t make disciples until their child is a convert.<\/p>\n<p>When your primary focus is making a convert, you\u2019re going to start in the wrong place with theology. You\u2019re going to start with the doctrine of sin. When you\u2019re primary concern is making a disciple, you\u2019re going to start with who God is and who we are. You\u2019re going to start with the doctrine of God and the doctrine of humanity.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Where the Bible starts!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Where the Bible starts; that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Again, these are important ideas, and they are important in the way\u2014in the order\u2014in which they\u2019re presented. I have heard someone say, \u201cThe only thing worse than a child who\u2019s never heard the gospel is a child who never wants to hear it again.\u201d I think that, sometimes, we major in the conversion moment and forget that, if we have built out the framework of the beautiful vision of what it means to be a follower of God, then, when the moment comes for that conversation to happen, a child is ready to receive it in a way they wouldn\u2019t otherwise be.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Wow! I don\u2019t even know how to respond to that. It\u2019s just so scary, but also, beautiful at the same time. God is in control. He\u2019s sovereign. He knows what He\u2019s doing; He knows what He\u2019s doing with your kids, with my kids, but at the same time, \u201cHave I started in the wrong place with my kids?\u201d I don\u2019t know. I need more; I need to hear more from Jen Wilkin and J.T. English.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson on FamilyLife Today. Man, this is such an enlightening and kind of crazy conversation. I love what they\u2019re talking about here, because theology can be so intimidating, but it really doesn\u2019t have to be. Whether your conversations about theology have felt out of reach, or over your head or irrelevant, I want you to consider Jen and J.T.\u2019s book, You Are a Theologian. The subtitle is An Invitation to Know and Love God Well.<\/p>\n<p>Now, earlier this week, Sissy Goff was here talking about eating disorders, body image, and mental health in children. Sissy Goff has written a book called The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can, Too. This is really a practical guide for parents who are struggling with issues of anxiety or mental health with their children. She goes after that and gives you a lot of practical advice and helpful tips on creating a worry-free family environment.<\/p>\n<p>This book is going to be our gift to you today when you give. You can get your copy now, with any donation, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com [and] clicking on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our mailing address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I wanted more, and maybe, you want more; so, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to give you more. How do you teach theology to your family and highlight the significance of creating a culture of curiosity and openness in the home? Well, Jen Wilkin and J.T. English are going to be back in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about just that. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1746036912:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_ac89253dbcf6dd83aa8f47764e87288e98c61a51":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_ac89253dbcf6dd83aa8f47764e87288e98c61a51":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:84:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Theology: Why Should I Care? Jen Wilkin & J.T. 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in the middle of text notifications and disturbing headlines, 'theology' might feel missable. But is it? Jen Wilkin and J.T. English discovers the significance of theology, its role in church and family discipleship, and why everyone is a theolo...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English! Discover more on Jen Wilkin at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jenwilkin.net\/\">jenwilkin.net<\/a> and learn more about J.T. English's ministry, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.storylinechurch.net\/about-jt\">Storyline Church <\/a> and listen to their latest podcast together, <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/1274228164\">Knowing Faith <\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jen Wilkin and J.T. English's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/you-are-a-theologian\/\">You are a Theologian: An Invitation to Know and Love God Well<\/a> in our shop.<br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Theology in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sandbox-theology\/\">Sandbox Theology<\/a>.<br \/>\nThis week, for a donation of any size, we'll send you <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/february-2024\/the-worry-free-parent\/\">The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can Too by Sissy Goff's<\/a> our way of saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/familylife-today-2\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=FLToday\">Donate to FamilyLife Today!<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-22.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Theology: Why Should I Care?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jen Wilkin and J.T. English<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Theology: Why Should I Care? (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 22, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We had people in our church who could tell you exactly what they thought about whether you should baptize infants or believers;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014people who could tell you exactly about what style of worship we should be using; and people who could tell you exactly who they thought you should vote for in the next presidential election; but they were functional heretics, in many senses, when it came to orthodox belief.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, on my very first road trip with the Detroit Lions, as their chaplain\u2014it was a preseason game in Seattle, so long flight to Seattle\u2014we\u2019re flying back to Detroit after\u2014I think we won!\u2014but who cares! Preseason; it didn\u2019t matter. I\u2019m not kidding: we were probably 30-40 minutes out from Detroit, and our plane gets hit by lightning.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Never had that happen. My dad\u2019s an airline pilot: never [experienced that]. Something just jarred the plane. The pilot came on\u2014because when you\u2019re on a charter plane, it\u2019s like you\u2019re talking to each other\u2014he said, \u201cJust to let you know: we were hit by lightning, and it could happen again.\u201d All of a sudden, all of these guys around me start yelling at me: \u201cPastor!\u201d \u201cChaplain! You got to pray!\u201d [Laughter] They\u2019re literally yelling out; they wanted me to pray out loud.<\/p>\n<p>I thought it was so interesting that they turned to me, because I\u2019m\u2014I sort of look at them like, \u201cWhy would you\u2014?\u201d And they said, \u201cYou\u2019re closer to God than we are, because you\u2019re a chaplain; you\u2019re a pastor.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cAm I any closer than anybody else?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s an interesting point.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, the question is: \u201cAren\u2019t we all pastors?\u201d \u201cAren\u2019t we all\u2014?\u201d Today, we\u2019re going to find out!<\/p>\n<p>We have two authors who wrote a book, that says we are all theologians, called You Are a Theologian. It\u2019s by Jen Wilkin and\u2014I didn\u2019t know this was your former boss\u2014J.T. English. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, we can talk about that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re in the studio.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yes! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would love to talk about that. But first, J.T. has never been here. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Thank you so much. I\u2019m really glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you know where you are? Do you know what we do?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: First time here, yes. I know what you do; I\u2019ve looked it up. And Jen gave me the lowdown this morning. She\u2019s the pro. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jen\u2019s a pro. She\u2019s been with us before.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about how you guys work together. This gives us a little bit of your bio anyway.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; I mean, Jen and I worked together for six years at The Village Church. I showed up\u2014she\u2019d done a women\u2019s ministry event at the previous church we were at, and my wife went to it. [She] would come home crying every single day, like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to hear this Jen Wilkin teach.\u201d I said, \u201cShe can\u2019t be that good.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cShe\u2019s pretty magnificent.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I listened to a few. This was before I was on staff at The Village.<\/p>\n<p>I showed up at TVC. I went to Jen\u2019s office. I said, \u201cAre you Jen Wilkin?\u201d She said, \u201cAre you J.T.?\u201d We struck up a friendship. She was working in a different department at the time. I was hired to do some discipleship and oversee some of our learning environments. \u201cThe first thing I want to do:\u201d\u2014I said\u2014\u201cwould you come work with me?\u201d She did!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow! You were at The Village Church until last week.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I was. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How many years?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Twelve years on staff. I\u2019d been at The Village for sixteen years. Almost 12 years on staff, and the last 6 years, serving on the Executive Leadership team. It\u2019s been a great run, and I loved doing it. I\u2019m really ready to focus more on what\u2019s going on with my kids and grandkids, and my parents, and maybe have some thinking space for writing another book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Good for you. Jen, how many Bible studies do you think you\u2019ve written? Do you know?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I think I\u2019ve published eight or nine at this point, but I\u2019ve written more than that. Those are just the ones that I have gotten out into the world. And then, we\u2019ve written\u2014we did a ton of team writing of studies at The Village as well, for the men\u2019s and women\u2019s Bible studies they have.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I love how you had to think: \u201cI think it\u2019s eight or nine.\u201d We have to go\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and how many books?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI think it\u2019s two.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I was going to say, \u201c70.\u201d It feels like more than the books of the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It does feel like 70.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I bet, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Okay. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: J.T., give us a little bit of your story: married, kids?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Married, kids; yes, my best friend is my wife, Macy. She comes from a ministry background. She\u2019s the first Christian I met after I came to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, that\u2019s convenient.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And so, he married her. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: And so it\u2019s like: \u201cYou! I think you\u2019re amazing. You love Jesus, and you\u2019re beautiful.\u201d In all seriousness, I have learned more about the Lord from my wife than anybody else. She walks with Jesus in some really deep ways.<\/p>\n<p>We have two kiddos: Thomas and Bailey, currently eight and six years old. Just talking with Jen this morning, it\u2019s the sweetest part of my life right now\u2014great family\u2014we\u2019re out on a block\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014great ages, too, aren\u2019t they?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, my gosh. It\u2019s just amazing. We\u2019re having a ton of fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You aren\u2019t making them CSU fans, are you?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Oh, yes. They even know the fight song.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what I figured. [Laughter] That\u2019s great! The Rams.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jen, you\u2014kids and grandkids\u2014how many?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, Jeff and I have been married 30 years this past summer. We have five kids, and then, we have three grandchildren so far. We are fruitful and multiplicative [Laughter], so who knows what will happen in the next year or so; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And now, Grandma\u2019s going to be present. That\u2019s pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay; so, you write this book called You Are a Theologian\u2014which, obviously, as I talked at the beginning, when the players called me out to pray\u2014my perspective is different than theirs. Mine is: \u201cEvery member a minister.\u201d You probably said that at church: \u201cIf you are a Christ-follower, you have gifts. It might not be a shepherding, pastoral gift; but in a sense, you are a pastor. So, I think you are a theologian.\u201d Most people don\u2019t think that.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They see your title like, \u201cNot me. I\u2019m not a theologian. You guys are; you are professional ministers and vocational workers, but I\u2019m not a theologian.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Obviously, what is your message?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; I mean, I think there are a few things to say here. I would say here, first, Jen and I tried to write the book that I wish somebody would have handed me right after I came to faith.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Yes. When I came to faith\u2014and I had no resources\u2014that sophomore that I already shared about, I said, \u201cCould you give me some resources?\u201d He handed me two; he handed me Max Lucado\u2019s In the Grip of Grace\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014which was amazing. It\u2019s this beautiful book about God\u2019s grace. He also handed me Wayne Grudem\u2019s Systematic Theology. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: That\u2019s like: \u201cThese two things are different.\u201d [Laughter] Helpful in their own context, but different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think you read one of them all the way through it. The other, not so much.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes, I really wanted to know theology, even though I didn\u2019t know what that was. I knew that it was going to help me understand God better, but it was intimidating. It was a long book, and this is supposed to be an introduction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: We realized, \u201cThere\u2019s probably not a resource out there for people who not ever thought about themselves as theologians.\u201d The other thing we tried to accomplish in the book\u2014that, Jen, I\u2019d love for you to talk about\u2014is, what does it mean when we say, \u201cYou are a theologian?\u201d What is theology?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking, Jen\u2014as you answer that question, I\u2019m thinking\u2014of moms listening, like, \u201cShould I listen to this one? I\u2019m raising my kids. I don\u2019t have any time for theology.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re cooking, right now, in the corner of the kitchen.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cThis has nothing to do with me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That was me in a lot of ways, other than the fact that I started teaching in the local church. I was very aware that I didn\u2019t know what I needed to know to be able to stand up and meet any kind of requirement that James 3 might put on teachers, being judged more strictly.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t know where to go. In the same way that this is a book that J.T. needed, it\u2019s a book that I needed. I began to discover theological categories; although, I don\u2019t know that I would have known to call them that. My husband was listening to a radio program, where they were teaching on some things, and we were having conversations. For my 30th birthday, he gave me Louis Berkhof\u2019s Systematic Theology, because he\u2019s a die-hard romantic. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I dug in.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was a birthday gift.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I dug in.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you like it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I used it on an as-needed basis. It was like, if I was teaching on a particular thing, I would duck in and grab what I needed; but the idea of a systematic way of approaching the way that we thought about theology was not something that I understood until years later. I wrote two books on the doctrine of God, not even knowing that I should call them the doctrine of God.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m the average learner, in the church, who was wanting to teach and didn\u2019t have what I needed to be able to do what I should to pass on a good deposit. You know, I still\u2014J.T. has a PhD in Trinitarian Theology; I have an English degree, so, I still\u2014have to psych myself up to say, \u201cNo, I am a theologian.\u201d I do understand it to be true, because that word, \u201ctheology,\u201d is a combination of two words: \u201ctheo,\u201d which is God (Theos). Say it in your\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: You got it: Theos.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And then, logos, meaning that we have knowledge or words about God. That\u2019s what a theologian is, which means that, even if you\u2019re an atheist or agnostic, you\u2019re a theologian. I have an agnostic friend, who is actually quite religious in the way that he talks about God not being knowable.<\/p>\n<p>We all have thoughts about God. It\u2019s a question of whether Christians have distinctly Christian thoughts about God. That\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping to accomplish with the book is to help the average learner\u2014and we always use that term without any negative connotation\u2014but to help the average learner in the pews to understand the historic Christian faith that is their legacy; not only that it\u2019s their legacy, but it is their charge to transmit to the next generation. We have concerns that we\u2019re not actually being able to do that well, based on some of the statistics that are out there right now about people\u2019s knowledge of just basic theology.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are those? Can you share some of those statistics?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I thought you\u2019d never ask, Ann. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: She\u2019s always ready with these. But every year\u2014ever since 2016 (actually, I think it\u2019s every two years)\u2014a group, Ligonier and Lifeway, co-ministry partners, comes out with a study they call \u201cThe State of Theology.\u201d They are talking about the basics of Christianity. What is important to highlight here is, we\u2019re not talking about second-tier\/third-tier issues that Christians might have slight disagreements, but we\u2019re talking about things that Christians have agreed upon for 2,000 years and that the Bible is really clear about.<\/p>\n<p>Here are a few examples:<\/p>\n<p>Jen: They surveyed both unbelievers, which is interesting to me; unbelievers and evangelicals. We know the unbelievers\u2014I can\u2019t do a whole lot to help them with theology, but as someone who is leading in a church, I absolutely want to help believers.<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cGod learns and adapts to different circumstances\u201d; so, that means, \u201cIs God immutable or not?\u201d right? 48 percent of evangelicals agree that: \u201cYes, God changes. He learns and adapts.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cEveryone is born innocent in the eyes of God,\u201d 65 percent of evangelicals agreed with that statement.<\/p>\n<p>In response to the statement: \u201cGod accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,\u201d 56 percent of evangelicals agreed.<\/p>\n<p>And then, in response to the statement: \u201cJesus was a great teacher, but he was not God,\u201d 43 percent of evangelicals agreed. That statistic had risen from 30 percent only two years earlier.<\/p>\n<p>The problem is not just existing. It is getting worse. What we saw, even in our own local church setting\u2014J.T. was one of the first people to point this out to me\u2014was that we had people in our church who could tell you exactly what they thought about whether you should baptize infants or believers;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014people who could tell you exactly what they thought about what style of worship we should be using; and people who could tell you exactly what they thought you should vote for in the next presidential election; but they were functional heretics, in many senses, when it came to orthodox belief. We have trained people. It\u2019s just a question of whether we have trained them into historic understanding of the faith.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Those numbers are scary\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014scary.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but not surprising.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not shocked. I don\u2019t know why.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m guessing some of our listeners listened to those and thought, \u201cHmm, I wonder what I think?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not even sure where they would stand on those questions.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We like to make clear that, if the people who are sitting in the pews don\u2019t know the answers to those questions, it\u2019s not because they have failed.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That is something that we, as people who are training people in the local church, need to ask: \u201cWhy is this not happening in our churches?\u201d It doesn\u2019t do any good to point to people who are sitting in the pews, and say, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you know this yet?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that we really want to see is a rebirth of places in the church, where people are sitting and discussing and learning these ideas so that we can pass along the generational goodness of this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember, in seminary, hearing this quote: \u201cIf people are falling asleep during the sermon, wake up the preacher.\u201d [Laughter] Have you heard that one?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes; oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s good!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s sort of what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But you\u2019re saying\u2014and you open the book with this statement\u2014that one of the things it feels like the church has missed is the Great Commission.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it isn\u2019t just making converts; but talk about this, because you talk about [how] we have not made disciples.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes, at the heart of learning that you are a theologian and have thoughts about God\u2014that\u2019s really what it means to be a disciple, to be a learner of the way of Jesus Christ, who is God Himself and God embodied. I think one of the things about discipleship, and that we\u2019ve neglected the theological aspect of discipleship, is that people are intimidated by it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: It\u2019s something that, even sharing those stats, maybe, you don\u2019t know where you stand on some of those questions. We\u2019ve kind of closed the door for some people on discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>Really, what we\u2019re hoping this book does is to say, \u201cIt\u2019s okay that you don\u2019t know the answers to these questions right now, but we\u2019d like to come along as guides and help you, and help your church, find the right theological answers to these questions. It\u2019s not an invitation to get a theology quiz right. It\u2019s an invitation to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s okay to be wrong about stuff. How often do I, when I\u2019m teaching in the life of the local church, get a question from somebody, and I don\u2019t know the answer? It\u2019s okay to say, \u201cI don\u2019t know,\u201d but we want to have the kinds and churches and ministries that say, \u201cI don\u2019t know the answer to that, but let\u2019s go find out together,\u201d because that\u2019s what discipleship is. It\u2019s a life-long journey of following the way of Jesus and learning to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What would you say to the person who heard those stats and said, \u201cThat\u2019s not that big a deal. Why is it that important that I know theology, that I know doctrine?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: The reason that the Christian church has endured for 2,000 years is because there has been a faithful work to transmit what we know to be true in the Bible from one generation to the next. And yet, we find ourselves, in this generation, with what is very likely unprecedented levels of biblical and theology illiteracy. They\u2019re existing in a time where we don\u2019t just have a Bible literacy or a theological literacy crisis; that is a subset of a general literacy crisis. We have a generation of people who have, perhaps, not been trained how to think about difficult issues of any kind.<\/p>\n<p>You add to that, that in the church, the discipleship model that we have gravitated toward over the past 30 or 40 years has been heavily focused on building community as its primary virtue or its primary goal; which is great, we want community in our churches, but when community is the highest stated goal of a gathering, then teaching is going to be a difficult presupposition. It\u2019s going to be something that is going to be done to a degree, but, perhaps, not to the degree that it should.<\/p>\n<p>And then, you add to that, that within the church, what we have seen is what J.T. and I have called the \u201cExpert\/Amateur Divide,\u201d which is the expert who stands on the platform and, passively, the amateur in the pew receives teaching or a way to think from that person. But it\u2019s not dialogic, and it\u2019s not invitational. In other words, there\u2019s no back and forth, and the person on the platform is always going to hold the space of expert, and the person in the pew is not receiving tools that moves [him or her] toward the person who is on the platform.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t want to go to a church that doesn\u2019t have community as one of its highest stated goals.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I just don\u2019t want every space to have that as its highest stated goal.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: The question that you asked is a question that we get all the time from people: \u2018Why does this matter to me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Or sometimes when we\u2019re teaching these concepts, people will say, \u201cIs it really important that I be precise about this?\u201d In our relationship with God, we want to say precision matters, because relationship with Him matters. Anybody that we love, we want to be growing in our relationship with them, our knowledge of them and our understanding of them. I\u2019ve been married to Macy now for 16 years. I know her better now than I did 16 years ago. Lord willing, I will know her in even deeper ways 16 years from now.<\/p>\n<p>So theology matters because God matters; because we love Him, we want to know Him; we want to be in relationship with Him. To suggest: \u201cDo we really need to know these things about God?\u201d suggests that you don\u2019t believe a deep relationship with God is essential to the Christian faith.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m looking at you two. You have seven kids between the two of you, with grandkids!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Where do you get that math? That\u2019s pretty good.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I had to add real quickly. [Laughter] Yes, we think that\u2019s right. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: With grandkids as well.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: J.T. thought there was an extra one for a second. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Talk to the parents whose kids are going through so much in terms of cultural discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why is it important for them? I\u2019m thinking they\u2019re like, \u201cHey, guys, I don\u2019t have time for this. Do you know what my life is like? I\u2019m working and trying to do all these things.\u201d Talk to them [about] why it\u2019s important for them to know this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for the families, for the parents.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes, based on what\u2019s happening in our culture.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I think it\u2019s important for us to be very clear: you can\u2019t not be a disciple of something.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There it is.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Everybody is being discipled. You\u2019re being discipled, perhaps, by an ideology, or by culture, by sports\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014TikTok.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: \u2014or TikTok. [Laughter] Whatever you\u2019re consuming\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014Twitter, big time.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Present company excepted. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Whatever you\u2019re consuming, you\u2019re being shaped and formed by it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: One of the first things I think is good for parents to know is: \u201cYou, yourselves, and your kids or your grandkids are being discipled. So, the question is: \u2018What are you being discipled by?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: And then, you think about, if you have six-and-a-half days of the week that you\u2019re discipled by things that are not theologically informed, and then you have maybe half a day, at most, where you are sitting and passively receiving teaching, rather than being in a dialogic space, what is the likelihood that you will be more formed by that half of a day than you will by the rest of the days of the week that you are elsewhere?<\/p>\n<p>I know the cycle on this. I know that, when you have small children, you have frequency of times to have these conversations, but not a lot of depth. And then, I know that as they get older, those lines get crisscrossed and you end up having fewer times where you\u2019re talking about things, but the opportunity for greater depth. So, even parents with small children can start having good conversations around good categories that are pointing toward how those conversations are going to go when their kids are older.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Not only that, but your children want to be able to look to you and know: \u201cOkay, my parents have thought about this, and whatever the counter argument is for what I\u2019m hearing at the lunch table, they can help me think through it.\u201d Not in [an attitude of], \u201cThe culture is terrible, and I hate everybody at the lunch table kind of way, but in a \u2018Hey, yes! We\u2019re aliens and strangers. And here\u2019s why you feel different when you\u2019re in those conversations than the other kids do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Theology is basically a way of thinking in an organized manner about what the Bible says. It\u2019s not adding to the Bible; it\u2019s not different than the Bible. It\u2019s basically almost like SparkNotes. Is that terrible to say that? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I probably wouldn\u2019t say that. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: I understand what you\u2019re saying. One of the examples that you used is that it\u2019s kind of like an organizing system\u2014like a file system\u2014for how the Bible is thinking.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: One of the things that we try to do in the book is show that theology is really about asking and answering the questions the Bible invites us to ask and answer. Things like:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWho is God?\u201d The Bible speaks to that. We should categorize how the Bible talks about that;<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWhat is God like? [What are] His attributes?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWho are we? What does it mean to be an image bearer?\u201d It\u2019s hard to imagine a more fundamental question for our society today about what it means to be created in God\u2019s image.<\/p>\n<p>And also, to answer the question: \u201cWhat\u2019s gone wrong with the world?\u201d We all know there\u2019s a fundamental sense of brokenness. How do we categorize the way the Bible talks about this?<\/p>\n<p>or \u201cWhat is God doing in the world? How is He making things right?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Questions help us categorize ways of thinking that the Bible gives answers to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Actually, as you were saying that, J.T., I was thinking, \u201cThere are listeners thinking, \u2018Can you answer some of those right now?\u2019 [Laughter] Because I know you walk through chapters.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Jen\u2019s got some SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, [Laughter] SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got the SparkNotes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes. Apparently, I should have stuck with the illustration I gave in the book. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>No, but just a really practical example of how, in a family setting, a parent who understands these important questions, and understands not just the questions, but the order in which we think through them\u2014[that] matters as well.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s going to change the way that you think about your children. We mentioned, in that Great Commission comment, that perhaps we have been more concerned about making converts than we have disciples. I know a lot of Christian parents who are very concerned about making converts of their children and are, perhaps, thinking they shouldn\u2019t make disciples until their child is a convert.<\/p>\n<p>When your primary focus is making a convert, you\u2019re going to start in the wrong place with theology. You\u2019re going to start with the doctrine of sin. When you\u2019re primary concern is making a disciple, you\u2019re going to start with who God is and who we are. You\u2019re going to start with the doctrine of God and the doctrine of humanity.<\/p>\n<p>J.T.: Where the Bible starts!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Where the Bible starts; that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Again, these are important ideas, and they are important in the way\u2014in the order\u2014in which they\u2019re presented. I have heard someone say, \u201cThe only thing worse than a child who\u2019s never heard the gospel is a child who never wants to hear it again.\u201d I think that, sometimes, we major in the conversion moment and forget that, if we have built out the framework of the beautiful vision of what it means to be a follower of God, then, when the moment comes for that conversation to happen, a child is ready to receive it in a way they wouldn\u2019t otherwise be.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Wow! I don\u2019t even know how to respond to that. It\u2019s just so scary, but also, beautiful at the same time. God is in control. He\u2019s sovereign. He knows what He\u2019s doing; He knows what He\u2019s doing with your kids, with my kids, but at the same time, \u201cHave I started in the wrong place with my kids?\u201d I don\u2019t know. I need more; I need to hear more from Jen Wilkin and J.T. English.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson on FamilyLife Today. Man, this is such an enlightening and kind of crazy conversation. I love what they\u2019re talking about here, because theology can be so intimidating, but it really doesn\u2019t have to be. Whether your conversations about theology have felt out of reach, or over your head or irrelevant, I want you to consider Jen and J.T.\u2019s book, You Are a Theologian. The subtitle is An Invitation to Know and Love God Well.<\/p>\n<p>Now, earlier this week, Sissy Goff was here talking about eating disorders, body image, and mental health in children. Sissy Goff has written a book called The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can, Too. This is really a practical guide for parents who are struggling with issues of anxiety or mental health with their children. She goes after that and gives you a lot of practical advice and helpful tips on creating a worry-free family environment.<\/p>\n<p>This book is going to be our gift to you today when you give. You can get your copy now, with any donation, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com [and] clicking on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you\u2019d like. Our mailing address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I wanted more, and maybe, you want more; so, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to give you more. How do you teach theology to your family and highlight the significance of creating a culture of curiosity and openness in the home? Well, Jen Wilkin and J.T. English are going to be back in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about just that. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. 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