{"id":280326,"date":"2024-02-23T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-02-23T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/"},"modified":"2025-04-30T13:04:14","modified_gmt":"2025-04-30T17:04:14","slug":"how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/","title":{"rendered":"How Well Do You Really Know God? Jen Wilkin &#038; J.T. English"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>If you could know God deeper, would you? Don&#8217;t miss out on a deeper connection. Authors Jen Wilkin and J. T. English invite you to take your next step in knowing the God your soul craves.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If you could know God deeper, would you? Don&#8217;t miss out on a deeper connection. Authors Jen Wilkin and J. T. English invite you to take your next step in knowing the God your soul craves. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English! &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/846cbb98-4f93-42e1-b940-b154011c3cb3\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:36","filesize":"28.96M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-02-23 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2171],"podcast_series":[8734],"cwp_profile":[9922,3337],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280326","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-go-make-disciples","podcast_series-theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","cwp_profile-j-t-english","cwp_profile-jen-wilkin","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280326\/how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280326\/how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"3e8kkRdBVd\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-well-do-you-really-know-god-jen-wilkin-j-t-english\/\">How Well Do You Really Know God? 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English! Discover more on Jen Wilkin at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jenwilkin.net\/\">jenwilkin.net<\/a> and learn more about J.T. English's ministry, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.storylinechurch.net\/about-jt\">Storyline Church <\/a> and listen to their latest podcast together, <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/1274228164\">Knowing Faith <\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jen Wilkin and J.T. English's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/you-are-a-theologian\/\">You are a Theologian: An Invitation to Know and Love God Well<\/a> in our shop.<br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Theology in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sandbox-theology\/\">Sandbox Theology<\/a>.<br \/>\nThis week, for a donation of any size, we'll send you <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/february-2024\/the-worry-free-parent\/\">The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can Too by Sissy Goff's<\/a> our way of saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/familylife-today-2\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=FLToday\">Donate to FamilyLife Today!<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-23.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How Well Do You Really Know God?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jen Wilkin and J.T. English<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Theology: Why Should I Care? (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 23, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jen: The doctrine of the church connects us to one another. It helps us to understand that we\u2019re not alone. But not only are we not alone, but we actually are made to serve God and one another.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what we\u2019re all wanting is a bigger vision. We want something that transcends. People don\u2019t always realize that\u2019s what they\u2019re missing.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you could guess at a percentage of the number\u2014a percentage of people in church\/evangelical churches\u2014church-going people\u2014they go regularly, which it sad that that\u2019s probably twice a month now or less\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s about what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014they\u2019re a regular church goer\u2014what percentage would you say don\u2019t know theology\/don\u2019t know their Bible well\/would be somewhat illiterate. Give me a number.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Eighty-seven percent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Eighty-seven\u2014you just picked that out of nowhere.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, [I] picked it out of nowhere.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You think it\u2019s that high? That\u2019s like nine out of ten.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m talking about nominal Christian churches. I\u2019m talking about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014not our church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re talking about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014not our church, of course.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know that\u2019s probably way too high of a percentage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s find out. We\u2019ve got a couple of experts who are back with us. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014some theologians.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen Wilkin and J.T. English. They\u2019re theologians.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014cool theologians with us today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re cool. They\u2019ve got their Spark notes. They\u2019re already to go.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s never going to die. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you don\u2019t know what happened yesterday, go listen to yesterday because we got into that.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s fine. Just keep rolling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen and J.T. have written a book together called You Are a Theologian. The subtitle is An Invitation to Know and Love God Well.<\/p>\n<p>What would you say is the percentage? Maybe you know the actual number or take a guess.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I don\u2019t know an actual number, but I do know that I\u2019ve been talking about Bible literacy now for at least ten years and then teaching on it prior to that even when I wasn\u2019t talking about it publicly. I find that it is everywhere, and it is at every level.<\/p>\n<p>One of the most common pieces of feedback we will get from Knowing Faith listeners is \u201cI\u2019ve been in church my whole life, and no one has taught me this\/no one has told me these things.\u201d It's pervasive. One of the things that I\u2019ll do when I talk about Bible literacy is give a little pop quiz over just factual information in the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You want to do it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s 20 questions. No, we won\u2019t do it here.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I\u2019ve taken this test five or six times; I do worse each time.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s 20 questions.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What? Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s not like \u201cExplain atonement theory.\u201d It\u2019s like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Can you give us three?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Which of Jesus\u2019s miracles is recorded in all four gospels?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Water to wine.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Feeding of the five thousand.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, of course.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Which disciple found a coin in the mouth of a fish?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Look at that.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: See. Part of it is like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we are biblically illiterate.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014but this is a really important sensation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who was it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It was Peter.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say Peter.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s an important\u2014think about the way you just felt in your stomach. If people are listening, that feeling.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we went to seminary. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That sinking feeling of, \u201cOh, no,\u201d right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That is the way that everyone in the pews is feeling. They think that they cannot tell anyone because if they\u2019re found out then they\u2019re not actually a Christian. Not only that, but what ends up happening is people think, \u201cGosh, am I just really bad at this? Is the Holy Spirit not alive in me? Why do other people seem to get this, and I don\u2019t?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The dirty little secret is that virtually none of us know what we should at this point and virtually none of us could articulate our basic theological positions the way we should if we want to be those who are going to fulfill the Great Commission. If we would say it out loud and then lock arms and begin moving forward, then I think we can turn this thing around. I still have enough of an optimist in me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like it.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014to think that the Lord will do the work. That\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping for.<\/p>\n<p>People will say, \u201cWhere would I do this?\u201d Everybody has a living room or knows someone with a living room. That\u2019s where these conversations can begin. It\u2019s good to have a trusted guide, someone who can lead those discussions, someone who has a little more light, maybe, than the other people in the group. It\u2019s good to know where to go for follow-up information if you hit a question that nobody can find a good answer to.<\/p>\n<p>But I think the most important thing we need to do is just admit \u201cYes, I don\u2019t know these things the way that I want to and the way that I wish that I did.\u201d We want you to hear us say\u2014J.T. and I want very much for you to hear us say, \u201cYou can do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: J.T., have you been in a group leading where you are going through some of these biblical principles just teaching Scripture in small groups where lightbulbs were going off?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Oh my gosh. It\u2019s my favorite thing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014in ministry by far. There\u2019s so much I enjoy about preaching and teaching but in one of my previous roles, and I still do this at our church, that we call it The Storyline Institute, and it\u2019s this: It\u2019s the basics of the faith.<\/p>\n<p>One thing that Jen and I realized over time\u2014again, we\u2019ve mentioned this\u2014is everybody\u2019s being discipled. They have ideas about God. They have thoughts about the world. But when it comes to the basics of the faith evangelicalism has sometimes put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble. [Laughter] We\u2019re pressing on things, not that they\u2019re unimportant but that we\u2019re making secondary issues primary and we\u2019re making primary issues secondary or perhaps never getting to them.<\/p>\n<p>Jen just mentioned this. Our favorite piece of feedback\u2014this happened to me this week at my church\u2014I was teaching on trinitarianism\u2014how many churches are teaching on the trinity from the pulpit to 2,000 people? \u2014I\u2019ve had 20 people\u2014there\u2019s one 86-year-old who came up to me and said, \u201cI\u2019ve been in church my whole life. I\u2019ve never ever thought about God like that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In some sense there\u2019s a sense of they\u2019re glad that you did it, but there\u2019s also a little frustration sometimes on their behalf; like, \u201cWhy hasn\u2019t anybody told me this before?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s those moments that make this job worth doing, because it changes trinitarianism or the doctrine of the atonement, far from being something that\u2019s distant from them, it\u2019s something that\u2019s immediately important\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014immensely practical.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: We talked about God in the book. Trinitarianism is God the Father is the one who initiates salvation or all things. God the Son is the one who accomplishes, and God the Holy Spirit is the one who applies all things, which means salvation from beginning to end, because God is who He says He is, is His means of grace. It\u2019s yours to receive freely and fully by faith in Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Trinitarianism isn\u2019t something for the elite systematic theologian. It\u2019s something for every single Christian, which is what Jesus says in the Great Commission, as well: \u201cGo therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in this triune name, the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.\u201d [Matthew 28:19, Paraphrased] Because God is the beginning and the end of the Christian life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re going to have to walk us through some of the basics because I think there\u2019s a hunger\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for the average church-going person.<\/p>\n<p>I remember one time when Ann\u2019s sister was still alive, I drove into their driveway of her parents\u2019 home. There were two gentlemen in the living room. They had knocked on the door. They were Jehovah Witnesses, and they were witnessing. Barb said, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to answer your things, but my brother-in-law can.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cGet in here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a half hour [that] they sat there waiting. I walked in the back door. Barb said, \u201cI\u2019ve got them in the front room. You\u2019ve got to go talk [to them].\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got what?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She felt like \u201cI don\u2019t know enough to be able to have conversation with these men.\u201d I could tell she felt embarrassed about that; like, \u201cI should.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But I think every Christian thinks, \u201cI want to know. It isn\u2019t like I don\u2019t want to. I don\u2019t know where to get to get the information.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve created a resource [and said], \u201cWe\u2019ll put it right in your hands.\u201d It\u2019s not a seminary level systematic theology but it is a simple systematic theology. Start somewhere. Where would we start? We can\u2019t do it all but give us an overview of basic theology that we should know.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: You always start with asking the question, \u201cWho is God?\u201d John Calvin famously said that the knowledge of God and knowledge of self always go hand in hand. There is no true knowledge of self apart from the knowledge of God. If you think about how our culture today is so concerned about self-knowledge and self-defined self-knowledge, right out of the gate you\u2019ve made a very counter-cultural statement about what Christian theology is teaching us.<\/p>\n<p>We start by beholding God for who He is, and then we\u2019re able to understand who we are as image bearers in relation to that. The starting point is always God.<\/p>\n<p>Just a practical example of how theology is intensely practical: When you learn about who God is you learn things like, \u201cHe holds all knowledge. He knows every single thing,\u201d which means He knows every single thing about you, Ann, and he knows every single thing about you, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>I have a family member who wrestled for years with assurance of salvation. He was baptized five times.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014five times because he kept thinking, \u201cIt don\u2019t think it really happened.\u201d I look on him with a great deal of compassion. But when you understand that God knows all things, it means you that can\u2019t commit a sin at some point that He didn\u2019t see coming that will change His steadfast love toward you. It also, if you understand Him as unchanging, then you know that once He has set His covenant love on you, He will not change that thing that He has done.<\/p>\n<p>The doctrine of God is intensely practical in that moment. It has a very real bearing on our lives, anyone who\u2019s ever wrestled with assurance of salvation. Because we don\u2019t start with the doctrine of God sometimes, they\u2019re turned inward looking at themselves and wondering, \u201cAm I enough?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The answer is \u201cNo, of course not. None of us are enough.\u201d But we know when we understand who God is and who we are in relation to Him that when He sets His love on us that Christ\u2019s sacrifice is enough and it\u2019s never changing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How have you two done teaching in your home? I\u2019m sure it\u2019s different but you\u2019ve done it. A lot of families are thinking, \u201cWhat would that look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: We try to have intentional times throughout the day. It doesn\u2019t happen every day. Some of those days when you\u2019re sick or tired or you get home from practice late. Don\u2019t let the picture of perfection eliminate your desire for progress. We just try to take next steps. If there\u2019s a bad week, just pick it up the next week. We are always gathered around some kind of book. The New City Catechism has been helpful for us. But I would also encourage parents [that] theology is always happening\u2014always.<\/p>\n<p>A couple of weeks ago my 94-year-old grandfather died. He\u2019s one of my heroes. [He was] married for 72 years. His widow, my grandmother\u2014call her Na-mom\u2014they live in Lincoln, Nebraska\u2014when I was holding my little girl, Bailey, at the graveside\u2014the graveside was only family\u2014and my grandmother tapped the casket. I don\u2019t think she knows that I heard this. She said, \u201cWell done, Bob. You did so good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bailey and I heard it. She looked at me and she said, \u201cWhat does she mean by that?\u201d That\u2019s theology right there. Theology was happening right there in that life moment. This isn\u2019t just in classrooms with textbooks open. It\u2019s \u201cI now have an opportunity to explain to my little girl a life well lived.\u201d I could explain marriage; I could explain sacrifice; I could explain death. There are so many things happening in that little moment.<\/p>\n<p>I would encourage parents [that] this isn\u2019t just you becoming a systematic theologian teacher. It\u2019s you using everyday life moments to talk about the realities of God, His gospel, life and death, marriage, covenant. There are those moments that are passing us by all the time. That doesn\u2019t mean you have to use every single moment. Some of you just have moments. But you can use those moments that can change the trajectory of your kid\u2019s life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know about you two. But I have found myself as a young mom, I realized that if it\u2019s not in me, [if] I\u2019m not thinking about it, [if] I\u2019m not in it, [if] I\u2019m not in the Word, I\u2019m not passing it along. But when I\u2019ve been in the Word, or I\u2019ve been listening to something or if I\u2019ve been praying and I\u2019m connected. It has to be in us for us to pour it out on them. I think that\u2019s big.<\/p>\n<p>When I realize, \u201cI\u2019m not talking about Jesus at all,\u201d it\u2019s because I\u2019ve been watching my Netflix every single night\u2014[Laughter]\u2014and I\u2019m not in the Word ever. I think that\u2019s important, as an evaluation of \u201cHow am I doing myself spiritually?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I love that you grabbed that moment.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As parents, it\u2019s easy to miss those. We\u2019re old enough to know they\u2019re going to go, and you\u2019re going to miss it and you\u2019re never going to get that moment again. Way to grab it.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I do think parents often think of conversations like those as the big conversations, kind of like the talking about sex. [They think], \u201cOh, we\u2019ve got have a theology conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It really is so much more of having a climate of conversation in your home in general so that everything is talked about in a thousand small conversations. Sure, there might be a few big conversations along the way.<\/p>\n<p>This is another one of those things. I think another key element of it, Ann, that you just touched on is we all want to think that it\u2019s the conversation where we\u2019ve prepared our notes and sat down to talk to them where they\u2019re really going to get the point. But it goes back to that whole \u201cMore is caught than taught\u201d thing.<\/p>\n<p>People will ask me all the time \u201cHow did your kids develop a love for studying the Scriptures?\u201d I think what they think I\u2019m going to say is \u201cWe sat them down and gave them a Rubrik and they had to complete it.\u201d The truth is we never did that. But they saw me doing it, and they saw Jeff doing it.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing that our kids saw is Jeff and me having energetic conversations about theological concepts.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014energetic. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We invited\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Have you ever had a non-energetic conversation?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: No.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I love it.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We invited the kids into that. First, they\u2019re kind of spectators maybe. But then they get invited into those conversation, because what children want\u2014they\u2019re asking the question, \u201cWhat does it mean to be an adult?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you do that as well in your home as you were raising your kids? I know we just heard J.T. [tell] the way he did it. Was yours similar?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He said yours is better\u2014[Laughter]\u2014so I want to hear what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We definitely had, by the time the kids were older, it was once a week, we had our once-a-week Monday dinner where we sat down and everyone had to come having read a\u2014we\u2019d go through a book of the Bible and had to come with three observations and two questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Look at this!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We built our conversation around that. That was Jeff telling me to tamp it down and not make them annotate the text. [Laughter] He was right because we wanted it to be conversational in that space.<\/p>\n<p>The girls came to my Bible study. They had a lot of opportunities to know about the more formalized ways to go about studying the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>We did a \u201cWhat\u2019s in the Bible\u201d where we tried to teach the story of Scripture to them. But when it came to theological concepts, they were the car rides and the random\u2014which is why it\u2019s so, so important as parents not to fill empty spaces with handing them the video game or the phone or whatever. It\u2019s not that you would never do that. But if that\u2019s what characterizes you, you\u2019re giving away very precious time where these conversations bubble up to the surface.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: What I got to see in the Wilkin family, too\u2014I got to meet Jen right before we had our first son\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014I got to see and watch and got to image and mimic something that we\u2019ve tried to image that I would commend Jen for\u2014I would commend to everybody listening is if you can find a way to build a culture of curiosity where questions are okay, that\u2019s the key. It\u2019s not \u201cMom and Dad want to teach you.\u201d It\u2019s that, \u201cIt\u2019s okay to ask questions.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014any question.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014any question. They did such a good job of cultivating curiosity where you\u2019re in their home at dinner [and you\u2019re asking], \u201cWhat are we going to talk about tonight?\u201d and there was excitement. It\u2019s not argument; it\u2019s not disagreement; it\u2019s not, \u201cLet\u2019s fight each other.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It is talking over each other sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Sometimes there\u2019s yelling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s enthusiastic.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: It\u2019s enthusiastic like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. What do you think? Let\u2019s open our Bibles.\u201d It doesn\u2019t always have to be biblical stuff. It\u2019s just that there is a culture of learning\/a culture of curiosity in your home that we\u2019re trying to find ways to imitate.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s also what you build, J.T., in the training program. You invite that into the family of God where people think they have to show up with the right answer and make straight As on whatever you ask of them or not show up at all. Instead, you say, \u201cNo, that\u2019s not how this works. We\u2019re going to ask the question we think we shouldn\u2019t ask or we\u2019re afraid to because it sounds too scary or it sounds too dumb or too obvious, and we\u2019re going to get them all out there and we\u2019re going to talk about them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I think what you guys are modeling is the future of discipleship. This is the call of the family of God to pass [on] the legacy.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: You should never have to leave the local church in order to lead in the local church, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I went to seminary twice. It was I wasn\u2019t getting this in the life of my local churches. I was the candidate for it. I went to my pastor who I\u2019m still friends with him. He\u2019s a great guy. Three years in Cru and I\u2019m getting ready to leave thinking about joining staff with Cru. I went to him and said, \u201cI don\u2019t know my Bible very well. I\u2019d like to grow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cYou want to grow?\u201d Now if I\u2019m a pastor and somebody comes to me who wants to grow, I say, \u201cCome on in my office. I\u2019ve got some books.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: He, again this is a man who loves Jesus and has been a faithful pastor, and he said, \u201cYou want to grow? You need to go to seminary for that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said to him, because I was still so far outside of the evangelical subculture, \u201cWhat\u2019s seminary.\u201d [Laughter] I didn\u2019t even know what those things were and that they existed.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cIt\u2019s where people go to die.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Yes, that\u2019s exactly right. I had a great seminary. My experience in seminary was not dry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ours was, too.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: It was \u201cOh, my goodness. Why is nobody telling me?\u201d and \u201cI need to take this back to the church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the fun things about writing this book with Jen and then being able to be her colleague is we got to\u2014we didn\u2019t try to do this\u2014we didn\u2019t set out to do this, but we got to do theology together.<\/p>\n<p>Neither of us always came up with the right answer. The fun thing about the book was we wrote it in several places. We would write a chapter and send it and say, \u201cI think this is right.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cCheck my work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Comments would come back like, \u201cDo you really think this,\u201d or \u201cWhat about this.\u201d Theology is a work that\u2019s never done because the life of following Christ is never done. We\u2019re constantly learning.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that we\u2019re passionate about, too, is allowing this to be a male\/female dialogue. Sometimes in the church there are male spaces for learning and female spaces for learning. But really if the family of God is made up of fathers and mothers and spiritual brothers and sisters, then having the opportunity to do this together and learn from one another has been one of the greatest gifts in my life.<\/p>\n<p>We also saw that happen in the life of our church where there can be men and women sitting at a table together discussing this with other husbands and wives or just friends and colleagues. It really created a lively environment in the life of our church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is there a small group curriculum coming?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Well, it\u2019s built into the book itself.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, it is. I just want to see you two on video\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Oh, gosh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014teaching this material.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: You\u2019ve got some free time, don\u2019t you, Jen?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I\u2019ve got free time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I have all kinds.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There are questions in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, there are questions at the end of each chapter. We did that on purpose because we\u2019re local church practitioners. We know that when you get a book like this you still need a little help to get moving with leading a discussion because I would.<\/p>\n<p>We tried to write it in such a way that it\u2019s able to be picked up by someone who wants to sit down with their small group and work through it together.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Just one last thing related to the end of it. There are discussion questions at the end of each chapter that you can walk through. But we also believe that theology isn\u2019t just about knowing God or thinking about Him rightly, though it is that. It\u2019s also about loving Him so each chapter has a formative practice or spiritual exercise or a prayer that allows us to say, \u201cIt wasn\u2019t just my mind that was changed but because my mind was changed my affections\/my heart was changed to worship God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We had one question for families to ask their kids at the dinner table yesterday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What was that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWho is God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes. I remember that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re encouraging parents \u201cPick up the book. You\u2019ll have a lot of questions to talk with your family about throughout the day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s another question they could ask tonight?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Who are you? Because we\u2019re living in a culture [where] that is a very common question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s huge: identity.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014an identity question but often the identities that we\u2019re forming are self-defined. \u201cHere\u2019s who I say I am.\u201d It\u2019s far more important that we know who God says we are. We\u2019re made in His image full of dignity and value. There are no qualifications to that status of being an image bearer.<\/p>\n<p>If I could encourage Christians to be thinking Christianly\/biblically about human identity that would be my question.<\/p>\n<p>What about you, Jen?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Obviously that one really matters but don\u2019t stop asking them questions until you get to the one where you ask, \u201cWho are we? Who is the church?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Because we live in such an individualistic age and the doctrine of the church connects us to one another and it helps us understand that we\u2019re not alone. But not only are we not alone, but we\u2019re made to serve God and one another.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what we\u2019re all wanting: a bigger vision. We want something that transcends. People don\u2019t always realize that\u2019s what they\u2019re missing; but when you recognize, \u201cOh, this isn\u2019t about me. It\u2019s about how I relate to God and how I relate to others,\u201d then you\u2019re going to be grounded in, \u201cOh, that\u2019s an identity that has some shock absorbers to it, because it\u2019s not dependent on me defining it and me maintaining it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did you have one?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You must have one if you asked me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen\u2019s sort of hit on it. It\u2019s in the book, as well, but \u201cWhat\u2019s our mission?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s easy as a family to be inwardly focused on us: \u201cWe\u2019re the Wilsons; we care about\u2026.\u201d No, \u201cWe\u2019re outward focused.\u201d You talked about serving and loving God and loving others but \u201cWhat is our mission on this planet?\u201d which you obviously you go all the way there in your book. But that\u2019s a great one for a family to realize \u201cWe\u2019re not just here to serve ourselves. We\u2019re here to make a dent where we\u2019re sent.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jen Wilkin and J.T. English have written a book called You are a Theologian. It\u2019s an invitation to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>Theology can obviously sometimes be really intimidating, but it doesn\u2019t have to be. This book unpacks whether conversations about theology are good in certain times or bad or if they feel over your head or they feel irrelevant, we want you to consider this book as an invitation into a dialogue with others.<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week we had on licensed therapist and author, Sissy Goff, talking about parents and dealing with issues that are very difficult. Things like eating disorders, body image, and mental health in children. Sissy has written a book called The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can, Too. This book is going to be our gift to you when you give today.<\/p>\n<p>You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com and clicking on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like to. Our mailing address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>As we approach this weekend, I want to ask you to pray for the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening all over the country, including Appleton, Boise, and Norfolk. We wanted you to know that those are happening in those specific places between now and Sunday. With over 40 events across the country still happening this spring, there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com to find a place and a date that might work for you and your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Coming up next week: are you disappointed because God hasn\u2019t shown up the way you wanted Him to, or it doesn\u2019t seem like He really cares? Elizabeth Woodson understands that. She\u2019s going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about her disappointment and how she\u2019s dealt with that in the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1746036695:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_f792f949125f513797c764431c35d19fc2e73f0b":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_f792f949125f513797c764431c35d19fc2e73f0b":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:88:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] How Well Do You Really Know God? Jen Wilkin & J.T. 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you could know God deeper, would you? Don't miss out on a deeper connection. Authors Jen Wilkin and J. T. English invite you to take your next step in knowing the God your soul craves. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English! ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English! Discover more on Jen Wilkin at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jenwilkin.net\/\">jenwilkin.net<\/a> and learn more about J.T. English's ministry, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.storylinechurch.net\/about-jt\">Storyline Church <\/a> and listen to their latest podcast together, <a href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/1274228164\">Knowing Faith <\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jen Wilkin and J.T. English's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/you-are-a-theologian\/\">You are a Theologian: An Invitation to Know and Love God Well<\/a> in our shop.<br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Theology in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sandbox-theology\/\">Sandbox Theology<\/a>.<br \/>\nThis week, for a donation of any size, we'll send you <a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/february-2024\/the-worry-free-parent\/\">The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can Too by Sissy Goff's<\/a> our way of saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/familylife-today-2\/?cru_source=24EGPCandcru_medium=podcastandcru_campaign=FLToday\">Donate to FamilyLife Today!<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-23.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>How Well Do You Really Know God?<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jen Wilkin and J.T. English<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Theology: Why Should I Care? (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 23, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jen: The doctrine of the church connects us to one another. It helps us to understand that we\u2019re not alone. But not only are we not alone, but we actually are made to serve God and one another.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what we\u2019re all wanting is a bigger vision. We want something that transcends. People don\u2019t always realize that\u2019s what they\u2019re missing.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you could guess at a percentage of the number\u2014a percentage of people in church\/evangelical churches\u2014church-going people\u2014they go regularly, which it sad that that\u2019s probably twice a month now or less\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s about what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014they\u2019re a regular church goer\u2014what percentage would you say don\u2019t know theology\/don\u2019t know their Bible well\/would be somewhat illiterate. Give me a number.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Eighty-seven percent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Eighty-seven\u2014you just picked that out of nowhere.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, [I] picked it out of nowhere.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You think it\u2019s that high? That\u2019s like nine out of ten.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m talking about nominal Christian churches. I\u2019m talking about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014not our church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re talking about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014not our church, of course.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know that\u2019s probably way too high of a percentage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s find out. We\u2019ve got a couple of experts who are back with us. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014some theologians.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen Wilkin and J.T. English. They\u2019re theologians.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014cool theologians with us today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re cool. They\u2019ve got their Spark notes. They\u2019re already to go.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s never going to die. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you don\u2019t know what happened yesterday, go listen to yesterday because we got into that.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s fine. Just keep rolling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen and J.T. have written a book together called You Are a Theologian. The subtitle is An Invitation to Know and Love God Well.<\/p>\n<p>What would you say is the percentage? Maybe you know the actual number or take a guess.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I don\u2019t know an actual number, but I do know that I\u2019ve been talking about Bible literacy now for at least ten years and then teaching on it prior to that even when I wasn\u2019t talking about it publicly. I find that it is everywhere, and it is at every level.<\/p>\n<p>One of the most common pieces of feedback we will get from Knowing Faith listeners is \u201cI\u2019ve been in church my whole life, and no one has taught me this\/no one has told me these things.\u201d It's pervasive. One of the things that I\u2019ll do when I talk about Bible literacy is give a little pop quiz over just factual information in the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You want to do it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s 20 questions. No, we won\u2019t do it here.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I\u2019ve taken this test five or six times; I do worse each time.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s 20 questions.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What? Whoa!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s not like \u201cExplain atonement theory.\u201d It\u2019s like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Can you give us three?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Which of Jesus\u2019s miracles is recorded in all four gospels?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Water to wine.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Feeding of the five thousand.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, of course.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Which disciple found a coin in the mouth of a fish?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Look at that.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: See. Part of it is like\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014we are biblically illiterate.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014but this is a really important sensation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who was it?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It was Peter.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say Peter.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It\u2019s an important\u2014think about the way you just felt in your stomach. If people are listening, that feeling.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we went to seminary. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That sinking feeling of, \u201cOh, no,\u201d right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That is the way that everyone in the pews is feeling. They think that they cannot tell anyone because if they\u2019re found out then they\u2019re not actually a Christian. Not only that, but what ends up happening is people think, \u201cGosh, am I just really bad at this? Is the Holy Spirit not alive in me? Why do other people seem to get this, and I don\u2019t?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The dirty little secret is that virtually none of us know what we should at this point and virtually none of us could articulate our basic theological positions the way we should if we want to be those who are going to fulfill the Great Commission. If we would say it out loud and then lock arms and begin moving forward, then I think we can turn this thing around. I still have enough of an optimist in me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like it.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014to think that the Lord will do the work. That\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping for.<\/p>\n<p>People will say, \u201cWhere would I do this?\u201d Everybody has a living room or knows someone with a living room. That\u2019s where these conversations can begin. It\u2019s good to have a trusted guide, someone who can lead those discussions, someone who has a little more light, maybe, than the other people in the group. It\u2019s good to know where to go for follow-up information if you hit a question that nobody can find a good answer to.<\/p>\n<p>But I think the most important thing we need to do is just admit \u201cYes, I don\u2019t know these things the way that I want to and the way that I wish that I did.\u201d We want you to hear us say\u2014J.T. and I want very much for you to hear us say, \u201cYou can do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: J.T., have you been in a group leading where you are going through some of these biblical principles just teaching Scripture in small groups where lightbulbs were going off?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Oh my gosh. It\u2019s my favorite thing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014in ministry by far. There\u2019s so much I enjoy about preaching and teaching but in one of my previous roles, and I still do this at our church, that we call it The Storyline Institute, and it\u2019s this: It\u2019s the basics of the faith.<\/p>\n<p>One thing that Jen and I realized over time\u2014again, we\u2019ve mentioned this\u2014is everybody\u2019s being discipled. They have ideas about God. They have thoughts about the world. But when it comes to the basics of the faith evangelicalism has sometimes put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble. [Laughter] We\u2019re pressing on things, not that they\u2019re unimportant but that we\u2019re making secondary issues primary and we\u2019re making primary issues secondary or perhaps never getting to them.<\/p>\n<p>Jen just mentioned this. Our favorite piece of feedback\u2014this happened to me this week at my church\u2014I was teaching on trinitarianism\u2014how many churches are teaching on the trinity from the pulpit to 2,000 people? \u2014I\u2019ve had 20 people\u2014there\u2019s one 86-year-old who came up to me and said, \u201cI\u2019ve been in church my whole life. I\u2019ve never ever thought about God like that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In some sense there\u2019s a sense of they\u2019re glad that you did it, but there\u2019s also a little frustration sometimes on their behalf; like, \u201cWhy hasn\u2019t anybody told me this before?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s those moments that make this job worth doing, because it changes trinitarianism or the doctrine of the atonement, far from being something that\u2019s distant from them, it\u2019s something that\u2019s immediately important\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014immensely practical.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: We talked about God in the book. Trinitarianism is God the Father is the one who initiates salvation or all things. God the Son is the one who accomplishes, and God the Holy Spirit is the one who applies all things, which means salvation from beginning to end, because God is who He says He is, is His means of grace. It\u2019s yours to receive freely and fully by faith in Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Trinitarianism isn\u2019t something for the elite systematic theologian. It\u2019s something for every single Christian, which is what Jesus says in the Great Commission, as well: \u201cGo therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in this triune name, the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.\u201d [Matthew 28:19, Paraphrased] Because God is the beginning and the end of the Christian life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re going to have to walk us through some of the basics because I think there\u2019s a hunger\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014for the average church-going person.<\/p>\n<p>I remember one time when Ann\u2019s sister was still alive, I drove into their driveway of her parents\u2019 home. There were two gentlemen in the living room. They had knocked on the door. They were Jehovah Witnesses, and they were witnessing. Barb said, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to answer your things, but my brother-in-law can.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cGet in here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a half hour [that] they sat there waiting. I walked in the back door. Barb said, \u201cI\u2019ve got them in the front room. You\u2019ve got to go talk [to them].\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got what?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She felt like \u201cI don\u2019t know enough to be able to have conversation with these men.\u201d I could tell she felt embarrassed about that; like, \u201cI should.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But I think every Christian thinks, \u201cI want to know. It isn\u2019t like I don\u2019t want to. I don\u2019t know where to get to get the information.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve created a resource [and said], \u201cWe\u2019ll put it right in your hands.\u201d It\u2019s not a seminary level systematic theology but it is a simple systematic theology. Start somewhere. Where would we start? We can\u2019t do it all but give us an overview of basic theology that we should know.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: You always start with asking the question, \u201cWho is God?\u201d John Calvin famously said that the knowledge of God and knowledge of self always go hand in hand. There is no true knowledge of self apart from the knowledge of God. If you think about how our culture today is so concerned about self-knowledge and self-defined self-knowledge, right out of the gate you\u2019ve made a very counter-cultural statement about what Christian theology is teaching us.<\/p>\n<p>We start by beholding God for who He is, and then we\u2019re able to understand who we are as image bearers in relation to that. The starting point is always God.<\/p>\n<p>Just a practical example of how theology is intensely practical: When you learn about who God is you learn things like, \u201cHe holds all knowledge. He knows every single thing,\u201d which means He knows every single thing about you, Ann, and he knows every single thing about you, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>I have a family member who wrestled for years with assurance of salvation. He was baptized five times.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014five times because he kept thinking, \u201cIt don\u2019t think it really happened.\u201d I look on him with a great deal of compassion. But when you understand that God knows all things, it means you that can\u2019t commit a sin at some point that He didn\u2019t see coming that will change His steadfast love toward you. It also, if you understand Him as unchanging, then you know that once He has set His covenant love on you, He will not change that thing that He has done.<\/p>\n<p>The doctrine of God is intensely practical in that moment. It has a very real bearing on our lives, anyone who\u2019s ever wrestled with assurance of salvation. Because we don\u2019t start with the doctrine of God sometimes, they\u2019re turned inward looking at themselves and wondering, \u201cAm I enough?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The answer is \u201cNo, of course not. None of us are enough.\u201d But we know when we understand who God is and who we are in relation to Him that when He sets His love on us that Christ\u2019s sacrifice is enough and it\u2019s never changing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How have you two done teaching in your home? I\u2019m sure it\u2019s different but you\u2019ve done it. A lot of families are thinking, \u201cWhat would that look like?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: We try to have intentional times throughout the day. It doesn\u2019t happen every day. Some of those days when you\u2019re sick or tired or you get home from practice late. Don\u2019t let the picture of perfection eliminate your desire for progress. We just try to take next steps. If there\u2019s a bad week, just pick it up the next week. We are always gathered around some kind of book. The New City Catechism has been helpful for us. But I would also encourage parents [that] theology is always happening\u2014always.<\/p>\n<p>A couple of weeks ago my 94-year-old grandfather died. He\u2019s one of my heroes. [He was] married for 72 years. His widow, my grandmother\u2014call her Na-mom\u2014they live in Lincoln, Nebraska\u2014when I was holding my little girl, Bailey, at the graveside\u2014the graveside was only family\u2014and my grandmother tapped the casket. I don\u2019t think she knows that I heard this. She said, \u201cWell done, Bob. You did so good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Bailey and I heard it. She looked at me and she said, \u201cWhat does she mean by that?\u201d That\u2019s theology right there. Theology was happening right there in that life moment. This isn\u2019t just in classrooms with textbooks open. It\u2019s \u201cI now have an opportunity to explain to my little girl a life well lived.\u201d I could explain marriage; I could explain sacrifice; I could explain death. There are so many things happening in that little moment.<\/p>\n<p>I would encourage parents [that] this isn\u2019t just you becoming a systematic theologian teacher. It\u2019s you using everyday life moments to talk about the realities of God, His gospel, life and death, marriage, covenant. There are those moments that are passing us by all the time. That doesn\u2019t mean you have to use every single moment. Some of you just have moments. But you can use those moments that can change the trajectory of your kid\u2019s life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know about you two. But I have found myself as a young mom, I realized that if it\u2019s not in me, [if] I\u2019m not thinking about it, [if] I\u2019m not in it, [if] I\u2019m not in the Word, I\u2019m not passing it along. But when I\u2019ve been in the Word, or I\u2019ve been listening to something or if I\u2019ve been praying and I\u2019m connected. It has to be in us for us to pour it out on them. I think that\u2019s big.<\/p>\n<p>When I realize, \u201cI\u2019m not talking about Jesus at all,\u201d it\u2019s because I\u2019ve been watching my Netflix every single night\u2014[Laughter]\u2014and I\u2019m not in the Word ever. I think that\u2019s important, as an evaluation of \u201cHow am I doing myself spiritually?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I love that you grabbed that moment.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As parents, it\u2019s easy to miss those. We\u2019re old enough to know they\u2019re going to go, and you\u2019re going to miss it and you\u2019re never going to get that moment again. Way to grab it.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: I do think parents often think of conversations like those as the big conversations, kind of like the talking about sex. [They think], \u201cOh, we\u2019ve got have a theology conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It really is so much more of having a climate of conversation in your home in general so that everything is talked about in a thousand small conversations. Sure, there might be a few big conversations along the way.<\/p>\n<p>This is another one of those things. I think another key element of it, Ann, that you just touched on is we all want to think that it\u2019s the conversation where we\u2019ve prepared our notes and sat down to talk to them where they\u2019re really going to get the point. But it goes back to that whole \u201cMore is caught than taught\u201d thing.<\/p>\n<p>People will ask me all the time \u201cHow did your kids develop a love for studying the Scriptures?\u201d I think what they think I\u2019m going to say is \u201cWe sat them down and gave them a Rubrik and they had to complete it.\u201d The truth is we never did that. But they saw me doing it, and they saw Jeff doing it.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing that our kids saw is Jeff and me having energetic conversations about theological concepts.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014energetic. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We invited\u2014<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Have you ever had a non-energetic conversation?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: No.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I love it.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We invited the kids into that. First, they\u2019re kind of spectators maybe. But then they get invited into those conversation, because what children want\u2014they\u2019re asking the question, \u201cWhat does it mean to be an adult?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you do that as well in your home as you were raising your kids? I know we just heard J.T. [tell] the way he did it. Was yours similar?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He said yours is better\u2014[Laughter]\u2014so I want to hear what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We definitely had, by the time the kids were older, it was once a week, we had our once-a-week Monday dinner where we sat down and everyone had to come having read a\u2014we\u2019d go through a book of the Bible and had to come with three observations and two questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Look at this!<\/p>\n<p>Jen: We built our conversation around that. That was Jeff telling me to tamp it down and not make them annotate the text. [Laughter] He was right because we wanted it to be conversational in that space.<\/p>\n<p>The girls came to my Bible study. They had a lot of opportunities to know about the more formalized ways to go about studying the Bible.<\/p>\n<p>We did a \u201cWhat\u2019s in the Bible\u201d where we tried to teach the story of Scripture to them. But when it came to theological concepts, they were the car rides and the random\u2014which is why it\u2019s so, so important as parents not to fill empty spaces with handing them the video game or the phone or whatever. It\u2019s not that you would never do that. But if that\u2019s what characterizes you, you\u2019re giving away very precious time where these conversations bubble up to the surface.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: What I got to see in the Wilkin family, too\u2014I got to meet Jen right before we had our first son\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014I got to see and watch and got to image and mimic something that we\u2019ve tried to image that I would commend Jen for\u2014I would commend to everybody listening is if you can find a way to build a culture of curiosity where questions are okay, that\u2019s the key. It\u2019s not \u201cMom and Dad want to teach you.\u201d It\u2019s that, \u201cIt\u2019s okay to ask questions.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u2014any question.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014any question. They did such a good job of cultivating curiosity where you\u2019re in their home at dinner [and you\u2019re asking], \u201cWhat are we going to talk about tonight?\u201d and there was excitement. It\u2019s not argument; it\u2019s not disagreement; it\u2019s not, \u201cLet\u2019s fight each other.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: It is talking over each other sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Sometimes there\u2019s yelling. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s enthusiastic.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: It\u2019s enthusiastic like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. What do you think? Let\u2019s open our Bibles.\u201d It doesn\u2019t always have to be biblical stuff. It\u2019s just that there is a culture of learning\/a culture of curiosity in your home that we\u2019re trying to find ways to imitate.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: That\u2019s also what you build, J.T., in the training program. You invite that into the family of God where people think they have to show up with the right answer and make straight As on whatever you ask of them or not show up at all. Instead, you say, \u201cNo, that\u2019s not how this works. We\u2019re going to ask the question we think we shouldn\u2019t ask or we\u2019re afraid to because it sounds too scary or it sounds too dumb or too obvious, and we\u2019re going to get them all out there and we\u2019re going to talk about them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I think what you guys are modeling is the future of discipleship. This is the call of the family of God to pass [on] the legacy.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: You should never have to leave the local church in order to lead in the local church, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: I went to seminary twice. It was I wasn\u2019t getting this in the life of my local churches. I was the candidate for it. I went to my pastor who I\u2019m still friends with him. He\u2019s a great guy. Three years in Cru and I\u2019m getting ready to leave thinking about joining staff with Cru. I went to him and said, \u201cI don\u2019t know my Bible very well. I\u2019d like to grow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cYou want to grow?\u201d Now if I\u2019m a pastor and somebody comes to me who wants to grow, I say, \u201cCome on in my office. I\u2019ve got some books.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: He, again this is a man who loves Jesus and has been a faithful pastor, and he said, \u201cYou want to grow? You need to go to seminary for that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said to him, because I was still so far outside of the evangelical subculture, \u201cWhat\u2019s seminary.\u201d [Laughter] I didn\u2019t even know what those things were and that they existed.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cIt\u2019s where people go to die.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Yes, that\u2019s exactly right. I had a great seminary. My experience in seminary was not dry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Ours was, too.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: It was \u201cOh, my goodness. Why is nobody telling me?\u201d and \u201cI need to take this back to the church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the fun things about writing this book with Jen and then being able to be her colleague is we got to\u2014we didn\u2019t try to do this\u2014we didn\u2019t set out to do this, but we got to do theology together.<\/p>\n<p>Neither of us always came up with the right answer. The fun thing about the book was we wrote it in several places. We would write a chapter and send it and say, \u201cI think this is right.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: \u201cCheck my work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Comments would come back like, \u201cDo you really think this,\u201d or \u201cWhat about this.\u201d Theology is a work that\u2019s never done because the life of following Christ is never done. We\u2019re constantly learning.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that we\u2019re passionate about, too, is allowing this to be a male\/female dialogue. Sometimes in the church there are male spaces for learning and female spaces for learning. But really if the family of God is made up of fathers and mothers and spiritual brothers and sisters, then having the opportunity to do this together and learn from one another has been one of the greatest gifts in my life.<\/p>\n<p>We also saw that happen in the life of our church where there can be men and women sitting at a table together discussing this with other husbands and wives or just friends and colleagues. It really created a lively environment in the life of our church.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is there a small group curriculum coming?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Well, it\u2019s built into the book itself.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, it is. I just want to see you two on video\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Oh, gosh.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014teaching this material.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: You\u2019ve got some free time, don\u2019t you, Jen?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, I\u2019ve got free time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I have all kinds.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There are questions in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes, there are questions at the end of each chapter. We did that on purpose because we\u2019re local church practitioners. We know that when you get a book like this you still need a little help to get moving with leading a discussion because I would.<\/p>\n<p>We tried to write it in such a way that it\u2019s able to be picked up by someone who wants to sit down with their small group and work through it together.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Just one last thing related to the end of it. There are discussion questions at the end of each chapter that you can walk through. But we also believe that theology isn\u2019t just about knowing God or thinking about Him rightly, though it is that. It\u2019s also about loving Him so each chapter has a formative practice or spiritual exercise or a prayer that allows us to say, \u201cIt wasn\u2019t just my mind that was changed but because my mind was changed my affections\/my heart was changed to worship God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We had one question for families to ask their kids at the dinner table yesterday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What was that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWho is God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes. I remember that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re encouraging parents \u201cPick up the book. You\u2019ll have a lot of questions to talk with your family about throughout the day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s another question they could ask tonight?<\/p>\n<p>J.T: Who are you? Because we\u2019re living in a culture [where] that is a very common question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s huge: identity.<\/p>\n<p>J.T: \u2014an identity question but often the identities that we\u2019re forming are self-defined. \u201cHere\u2019s who I say I am.\u201d It\u2019s far more important that we know who God says we are. We\u2019re made in His image full of dignity and value. There are no qualifications to that status of being an image bearer.<\/p>\n<p>If I could encourage Christians to be thinking Christianly\/biblically about human identity that would be my question.<\/p>\n<p>What about you, Jen?<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Obviously that one really matters but don\u2019t stop asking them questions until you get to the one where you ask, \u201cWho are we? Who is the church?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Whoa, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Because we live in such an individualistic age and the doctrine of the church connects us to one another and it helps us understand that we\u2019re not alone. But not only are we not alone, but we\u2019re made to serve God and one another.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what we\u2019re all wanting: a bigger vision. We want something that transcends. People don\u2019t always realize that\u2019s what they\u2019re missing; but when you recognize, \u201cOh, this isn\u2019t about me. It\u2019s about how I relate to God and how I relate to others,\u201d then you\u2019re going to be grounded in, \u201cOh, that\u2019s an identity that has some shock absorbers to it, because it\u2019s not dependent on me defining it and me maintaining it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did you have one?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You must have one if you asked me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Jen\u2019s sort of hit on it. It\u2019s in the book, as well, but \u201cWhat\u2019s our mission?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jen: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s easy as a family to be inwardly focused on us: \u201cWe\u2019re the Wilsons; we care about\u2026.\u201d No, \u201cWe\u2019re outward focused.\u201d You talked about serving and loving God and loving others but \u201cWhat is our mission on this planet?\u201d which you obviously you go all the way there in your book. But that\u2019s a great one for a family to realize \u201cWe\u2019re not just here to serve ourselves. We\u2019re here to make a dent where we\u2019re sent.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>J.T: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jen Wilkin and J.T. English on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jen Wilkin and J.T. English have written a book called You are a Theologian. It\u2019s an invitation to know and love God well.<\/p>\n<p>Theology can obviously sometimes be really intimidating, but it doesn\u2019t have to be. This book unpacks whether conversations about theology are good in certain times or bad or if they feel over your head or they feel irrelevant, we want you to consider this book as an invitation into a dialogue with others.<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week we had on licensed therapist and author, Sissy Goff, talking about parents and dealing with issues that are very difficult. Things like eating disorders, body image, and mental health in children. Sissy has written a book called The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can, Too. This book is going to be our gift to you when you give today.<\/p>\n<p>You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com and clicking on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you\u2019d like to. Our mailing address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>As we approach this weekend, I want to ask you to pray for the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening all over the country, including Appleton, Boise, and Norfolk. We wanted you to know that those are happening in those specific places between now and Sunday. With over 40 events across the country still happening this spring, there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com to find a place and a date that might work for you and your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Coming up next week: are you disappointed because God hasn\u2019t shown up the way you wanted Him to, or it doesn\u2019t seem like He really cares? Elizabeth Woodson understands that. She\u2019s going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about her disappointment and how she\u2019s dealt with that in the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280326","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280326"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280326"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280326"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280326"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280326"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280326"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280326"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}