{"id":280323,"date":"2024-02-28T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-02-28T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim\/"},"modified":"2025-04-17T10:29:10","modified_gmt":"2025-04-17T14:29:10","slug":"help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim\/","title":{"rendered":"Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone: Jay Y. Kim"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;I use my phone a lot. Doesn&#8217;t everyone?&#8221; Truth: Our phones are designed to keep us scrolling and swiping at all costs. Jay Kim reveals eye-opening ways our phones can create a prison for our souls and impact the life and future of the worldwide church.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;I use my phone a lot. Doesn&#8217;t everyone?&#8221; Truth: Our phones are designed to keep us scrolling and swiping at all costs. Jay Kim reveals eye-opening ways our phones can create a prison for our souls and impact the life and future of the worldwide church. S&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/109c9b6e-6c26-4e83-a014-b154011c39f6\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:47","filesize":"27.30M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-02-28 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2168],"podcast_series":[8736],"cwp_profile":[9923],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280323","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-im-addicted-to-my-phone","podcast_series-help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim","cwp_profile-jay-y-kim","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280323\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280323\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"kWpamnqM8b\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim\/\">Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone: Jay Y. Kim<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/help-im-addicted-to-my-phone-jay-y-kim\/embed\/#?secret=kWpamnqM8b\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone: Jay Y. Kim&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"kWpamnqM8b\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-016382"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/109c9b6e-6c26-4e83-a014-b154011c39f6\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:29:47"],"filesize":["27.30M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at<a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/\"> jaykimthinks.com <\/a>and listen to his podcast <a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/podcast!\">jaykimthinks.com\/podcast<\/a> and follow him on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jaykimthinks\/\">Instagram<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/jaykimthinks\">Facebook<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jay Y Kim's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/analog-christian-cultivating-contentment-resilience-and-wisdom-in-the-digital-age\">Analog Christian on our shop.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about our phones in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-are-screens-influencing-us\/\">How Are Screens Influencing Us?<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Or we'll send it at no cost to you with a donation of any size this week, as our way of <a>saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-28.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone.<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jay Y. Kim<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 28, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think there\u2019s actually an increasing awareness of what digital technology is doing to us. I just read the other day\u2014somebody posted something about\u2014that where the trends are heading, in 10 to 15 years, having a primarily non-digital life will be sort of a status symbol, that you\u2019re living a much more full, rich life.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Alright, did you see the 20-something girl sitting beside me on the flight the other night?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The one that was on the computer?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did notice that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You noticed that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. You were sitting across the aisle; I don\u2019t know if you noticed this. She sat down, said \u201cHi, how are you doing?\u201d and that was the end of the conversation, because she opened her phone, and she never one time stopped scrolling. I shouldn\u2019t have been that nosy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, she had her computer on her lap.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She had that, too, but she had her phone going and her computer going. I just thought, \u201cShe\u2019s never turned it off,\u201d and I know she paid for the Wi-Fi (I never pay for the Wi-Fi because I\u2019m not going to spend that money).<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She had stuff to do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought, \u201cWhat a world we live in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought, if I wanted to have a conversation, she would have been annoyed that I was interrupting her digital world.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She might have been creating the best manuscript of her life, and you\u2019re judging her?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not judging her. [Laughter] I\u2019m just making an observation. We live in a digital time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about that today with Jay Kim. He is in the digital world in California. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, thanks so much for having me. I\u2019m glad to be on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When you hear that story, is that unusual at all?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Not at all; not at all. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unusual for anybody listening.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t either. It\u2019s not unusual for us, either, because when we\u2019re on the plane, we\u2019re doing the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; we\u2019re going to talk about this whole thing. You\u2019ve thought a lot about it, [and] even wrote a book called Analog Christian: Cultivating Contentment, Resilience, and Wisdom in the Digital Age. Tell our listeners what you do. I know you pastor out in northern California.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, San Francisco Bay area. I\u2019m in a city called San Jose, right on the border of San Jose and Cupertino. People know Cupertino because that\u2019s where Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, in that little garage, started Apple. Apple\u2019s main campus, the big giant spaceship, is a seven-minute drive from our campus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I have been there basically my whole life, been a pastor there for over 20 years; and here we are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, let\u2019s talk about this analog idea, because of all people, you live right in the center of digital world. What were you thinking when you say, \u201cI have to compare the digital age with analog Christian?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Honestly, it didn\u2019t start out with the thought of writing a book. It just started out with a growing awareness of my own addiction to digital technology. I have two young kids. They are eight and five now, but when my son, the five-year-old, was born\u2014my daughter is three, and he\u2019s probably two, three weeks old\u2014I\u2019m watching them at home. They are lying on the floor, and my daughter leans over to give him a kiss on the cheek (her newborn baby brother) and I do what every parent does. I pull out my phone.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThis is it! This is my Instagram winner of the year!\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m already imagining how many likes, how many shares, all of that stuff. So, I take this photo, and then I just find myself, my actual human children are lying right in front of me, and I\u2019m just immersed in my screen trying to edit the photo with the right filter. You have to crop it right. I\u2019m trying to figure out the caption to get maximized likes.<\/p>\n<p>While I\u2019m doing this, I feel a tug on my pant leg. It\u2019s my three-year-old, so I look past the digital image of my daughter to my actual, human daughter, and she says to me, \u201cNo more email, Daddy. No more email.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow! A three-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: A three-year-old. And what it told me was, in three years of life, this little girl has already experienced me, her dad, physically present but absent in every other way, typically checking my email; that she just thought ,\u201cIt\u2019s happening again.\u201d So, that\u2019s what really started the journey for me.<\/p>\n<p>I knew there was something happening in me that I didn\u2019t want to continue, so I started reading a lot, not Christian writers, just secular writers who were writing extensively about what digital technologies were doing to us; not just what they were doing for us, but how they were forming us. And then, as a follower of Jesus, I realized the whole journey of following Jesus is about God, by His Spirit, forming us into a certain type of person.<\/p>\n<p>I realized digital technology is forming me. I\u2019m a disciple of digital, not a disciple of Jesus. So, that led to a long journey, which turned into this book and much of my work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What did that journey look like? You said you went on a journey. It probably wasn\u2019t that day, but did you start to cut back?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. I just started instilling particular practices and boundaries around digital. Like you said, it didn\u2019t happen overnight.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I borrowed from a lot of great thinkers who have talked about instilling\u2014this is an ancient phrase, but instilling\u2014a sort of digital rule of life. There is a writer, Andy Crouch, who has written extensively about this, a dear friend. He\u2019s been such a huge help to me. He talks about \u201cparenting your phone.\u201d In other words, treating your phone as you would treat a three-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>So, in my home, even still, even though my kids are eight and five, the parents\u2014Jenny and I, my wife and I\u2014don\u2019t go to bed before our kids. We typically wake up before our kids, but we don\u2019t go to bed before our kids. So, same deal with our phone. I\u2019m not going to bed with my phone. I\u2019m putting my phone to bed before I go to bed, and I\u2019m waking up before my phone wakes up.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s basic things. Our phone doesn\u2019t sit on our nightstand in our bedroom. It\u2019s docked in the kitchen in a little station. So, it\u2019s simple things like that. There are several others, but for us, if I\u2019m not intentional about how I leverage my phone and use my phone, then what I know is the phone will just use me, because I\u2019ve experienced it, and I think a lot of listeners can relate.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: We don\u2019t think about it that way, but that\u2019s what happens.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, you actually don\u2019t sleep with your phone in the same room?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: No.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That sounds\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I like [how] you say you put your phone to bed. You dock it down in the kitchen, and you won\u2019t even have it by your bedside, because most of us\u2014we do this, we go to bed, [and] we\u2019re in bed with our phones in our hands.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, most people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Not us. We would never do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: [Laughter] We totally do it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Other people, I\u2019m sure. No, we do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s terrible. So, the mom right now is saying, \u201cWell, what if there\u2019s an emergency? What if someone is trying to get hold of me? I have adult kids, and [if] my phone\u2019s in the kitchen, I don\u2019t hear it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. I would say, let\u2019s remind ourselves that for the entirety of human history until 15 years ago, we did not have phones on our bedside. [Laughter] So, it is possible to live life, right? That much is certain.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is possible.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It is possible to live life without a smartphone and access to the worldwide web of the internet in your final moments before slumber. That is possible. I get it. What if there is an emergency? I don\u2019t know. Maybe what that looks like is getting a landline, and someone can call you if you\u2019re really that concerned. For us, I would say the reason we are able to do this is because the emergencies that matter most, we would know, because it\u2019s in our home.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, they\u2019re right there.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s my children, it\u2019s my wife right next to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think the push and the pull is interesting. We can say that: \u201cWhat if something happens? Here\u2019s my phone.\u201d But the reality is you have your phone with you, attached to you, in that way. Something is happening that entire time, in that you are detaching from the people you probably care about the most, who are right next to you.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of people will say to me, \u201cWell, how will I wake up?\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cThere\u2019s a thing called \u2018clocks.\u2019 They are still available.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s really funny. I don\u2019t know. We\u2019re so attached, we\u2019re so addicted, it\u2019s very difficult to imagine a life without it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re a pastor of a church. You\u2019re talking to Gen Z; you\u2019re talking to all different age groups of people. When you say this, or you preach about this, which I\u2019m assuming you have at church,\u2014Jay: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014what\u2019s the response, especially from kids? Gen Z has been growing up with this. They\u2019ve had this in their hands.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: They\u2019re very open.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are they?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Very open. I think there\u2019s actually an increasing awareness of what digital technology is doing to us. I\u2019m actually quite hopeful that when my children are teenagers and in their college years and in their 20s and young adulthood\u2014I am really hopeful that\u2014the paradigm shifts significantly. I just read the other day\u2014somebody posted something about they think\u2014that where the trends are heading, that in 10 to 15 years, having a primarily non-digital life will be sort of a status symbol, that you\u2019re living a much more full, rich life.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I don\u2019t know if they\u2019re right, but I really, really hope they\u2019re right. Digital is never going away. In fact, I just need to be clear: I\u2019m not anti-digital.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I have a smart phone. I use my laptop. I use Zoom and all of those things. I have an Instagram, all of those things. It\u2019s not about the technology, it\u2019s about what we allow or do not allow the technology to do to us. We have control over that, if we decide to take control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Have you ever done this? My phone will be sitting on my thigh as I\u2019m watching TV or sitting with Ann, and it won\u2019t even be just email or text. It will be a sermon thought, and I\u2019ll pull it out and make sure I get it in my sermon notes for the weekend. She\u2019s looking at me like, \u201cWhere\u2019d you just go?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s like I went to my office, which I would have done in the old days, shut the door, this is my time to do this, and I come out, I\u2019m present. But now, I\u2019m never really ever separated from that world. Is that your reality as well?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, 100 percent, even still to this day. There is always the temptation to detach myself from what is actually happening in the present moment, because my brain has been hardwired to move at the pace of the internet. That\u2019s another thing that\u2019s happening to us, so we\u2019re growing really impatient. We\u2019re very scattered, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Because we have access to so much, we\u2019re constantly sort of moving, mentally, emotionally, to someplace else. You think about sitting at a red light, you know? I\u2019m always tempted, sitting at a red light, and it\u2019s a long red light; what do we do?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I usually just go. [Laughter] I just go ahead. Ask Ann. No cars coming? I just go.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right. That\u2019s an option. That\u2019s an option. For most people, there\u2019s the temptation, and in some states it\u2019s illegal. You can get a ticket.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It is. It\u2019s now illegal in Michigan to pull out your phone at a stop sign.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Or ever, in your car.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. In California you can\u2019t physically touch your phone while you are in your car; but I see people doing it every day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Every day, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: At stoplights; all the time, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And it\u2019s because there\u2019s something in us that cannot\u2014cannot\u2014be still in place anymore. There was a time\u2014you know, everyone listening to this hopefully can remember; there was a time\u2014where, at a red light, we would enter a brief little season, a moment of time that was called \u201cboredom.\u201d [Laughter] And you\u2019re talking about sermons. You know what\u2019s really interesting?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: For me, when I really think about it, yes, sometimes, I see something or I hear something, and I think, \u201cOh, my gosh. I have to remember that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And I capture it, but my best thoughts usually come when it\u2019s quiet and boring, and my mind and my heart have enough space to just be still. That creates the room for God to start filling us with whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I think we have to learn to embrace boredom again, because I do think boredom is the path to creativity and beauty, and we so rarely get there because we\u2019re constantly distracted.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about this: is it an escape? Because when you say that, there is part of me that thinks we\u2019re uncomfortable with silence, we\u2019re uncomfortable with thinking deeply.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think, in a marriage, it can be a distraction that we use to not engage.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As I sat beside that young lady on the plane, I thought, \u201cShe doesn\u2019t want to talk.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And if I turned and said, \u201cHey, so where are you going?\u201d which I rarely do, it would have been an intrusion into her digital world that she didn\u2019t want. It was her way of saying, \u201cI\u2019m closing off you and everybody else.\u201d I think we do the same thing in our marriage. Is that something you\u2019ve found? It\u2019s an escape?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, absolutely. I think we create little bubbles around ourselves. Go to any coffee shop these days. You know, again, pre-smart phone, there was a time when, in a coffee shop, typically you\u2019d be\u2014even if you\u2019re there for long, extended periods of time, typically you are\u2014working or having a conversation with a friend, with background, ambient sounds of humans talking in a coffee shop.<\/p>\n<p>Now, you have a bunch of disconnected individuals with these little white pods in their ears, and socially, [when] you see the white air pods, what does it tell you? Exactly your point, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You don\u2019t see the physical bubble, but these little white knobs are a bubble.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: \u201cDo not intrude; do not step in. This is sort of my space.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, of course it makes all the sense in the world that all of the data is showing us that, since about 2012, rates of loneliness and isolation have spiked amongst teenagers, because it was in 2012 that we started putting smartphones in the hands of teenagers. Researchers, not Christian, just high-level social scientists like Jonathan Haidt and Jean Twenge, have done this work for several decades now, and it\u2019s pretty clear. The smart phone has disconnected us.<\/p>\n<p>A writer, Sherry Turkle, has a book titled Alone Together, which I think is so true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You think about going out\u2014I was at dinner on Friday night on my own after I landed, and I\u2019m alone\u2014actually, physically alone, but I wasn\u2019t wearing air pods or anything. I didn\u2019t have my phone out. I was just eating some fajitas with the ambient sound of the restaurant.<\/p>\n<p>It was a full, busy restaurant, but what was so alarming to me and, sadly, not surprising, was so many of the people in this restaurant were sitting face-to-face, but they were alone together, just immersed in their screens. I thought, \u201cMan, here you are. You\u2019re sharing a meal, breaking bread. You could be having all sorts of rich, honest, genuine conversation face-to-face, and you\u2019re just completely alone together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s something we have to be mindful of. That\u2019s not the sort of life any of us really want to live, but it seems to be the lives we are living.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, you have an eight-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When are you going to let them have a cell phone?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Jenny and I (my wife and I) talk about this a lot. We think middle school, but we\u2019re pretty convinced that it will not be a smart phone. A friend of ours actually recommended the Apple watch for teenagers. It\u2019s actually a great tool, because you can\u2019t do social media on the watch, but you have access to everything else you really need. Mom and Dad can text you; you can call us. So, that\u2019s kind of where we\u2019re leaning right now.<\/p>\n<p>Either that, or just an old flip phone, and she can download that game, Snake, that I used to play all the time on my old Nokia\u00ae. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you want her to experience it?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Even back then, I was distracted just playing Snake on that little green screen with the black, but it was a different kind of distraction. We think we\u2019ll probably do the Apple watch, so she can text and call but not have social media. That\u2019s another thing we\u2019re pretty adamant about, and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s going to turn into a big fight in our house.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s enough data that tells us putting social\u2014I think, just my opinion\u2014I think 30 years from now, we\u2019ll look back, and we will look at what we\u2019re doing right now, which is allowing 12-year-olds to get on social media, we\u2019ll look back on that the way we would look back now as if we had put cigarettes in the hands of 12-year-olds 30 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: For sure.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s literally killing a generation. So, for us, we\u2019re not going to do social media. When she turns 18, it\u2019s her own choice, but for now that\u2019s kind of where we\u2019re at.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She can figure it out.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You started the program talking about how you\u2019ve learned to put your phone to bed.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You dock it, and you go upstairs, go to sleep; and then you wake your phone up. You purposely come down, and you\u2019re choosing when to have your phone on, instead of having it in your hand when you go to bed and when you wake up. Tell us the difference that that has made for you, because you said that you were pretty much present, but you weren\u2019t present with your family and kids. Has it changed? What does it feel like now?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It changed everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. Jenny and I have actual conversation before bed. [Laughter] Not just quippy little things, \u201cHey, look what I saw on Twitter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you really weren\u2019t doing that before?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: We weren\u2019t. No. We were both just scrolling, and occasionally we\u2019d say, \u201cHey, look at this funny meme on Instagram.\u201d That\u2019s not real conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, she decided to do this as well. You both did.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, and my wife took it a step further; before I started putting the phone to bed, before all of that, she got off of all social media about four years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Still off?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Still off.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She\u2019ll never go back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How does she function? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I don\u2019t know. I ask her that every day. How are you even alive without Twitter? [Laughter] How is this possible? Yes, she will never go back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She has no temptation. Several things: one, just time; the simplicity of\u2014she realized; she says, \u201cI did not realize how much time social media was stealing from me.\u201d In fact, I would encourage everybody: just take inventory. Your phone can do it for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It will tell you how much time you\u2019re spending on your phone on various apps.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, it\u2019s so depressing!<\/p>\n<p>Jay: If you never look at it, you should look at it, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Because it will give you a clear\u2014and then, do some of the math. What does that look like over the course of a week, a month, a year, ten years?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And you will be alarmed at how much of your life is stolen by this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Does yours do what mine does? It lets me know how many hours on Sunday morning.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that a thing? Because I\u2019m always at church!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it\u2019s convicting. I\u2019m getting ready to preach, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s the Holy Spirit, \u201cDave, this week\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cCan\u2019t we do this tomorrow? Why right now?\u201d It just reminds you, \u201cThis is not important! And look what you did this week.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t know it was Sunday morning for everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think you can change it, but, yes, for mine, it\u2019s Sunday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, really, she stayed off?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She stayed off. She loves it. It\u2019s not just the time either. She just feels way less anxious. There\u2019s a lot of research that shows social media is designed to make you anxious, because it is the thing that keeps you coming back. It\u2019s one of those sort of neurological triggers that will keep you coming back. \u201cDid I get more likes? Did I get more likes? What\u2019s happening in the world? If I don\u2019t know, then that\u2019s problematic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: So, it\u2019s been a huge game changer for me every morning, because the phone is not the first thing for me. I just have a ritual. I pour myself a pour-over coffee, and I read a Psalm or a section of the Gospels, and then I\u2019ll just drink that cup of coffee, continuing to read and meditate on God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>You know, there is all of that research that shows, if you do something for 21 straight days, it becomes sort of habitual, and that\u2019s been true for me. It\u2019s been habit-forming, so now, I feel abnormal if I can\u2019t do that in the morning; and that\u2019s where we want to get, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: So, yes, it\u2019s been a game changer. Those are just a few things, but there have been a lot more that have been really helpful for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019ll talk about that some more tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. I was just thinking, if a married couple listening just did what you said\u2014<\/p>\n<p>if we did it, forget our listeners! [Laughter] If we did it, that\u2019s a game changer for your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019m guessing your daughter is not coming up to you anymore and saying, \u201cGet off email.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because it\u2019s not as prevalent as it was, right?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, that\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love it. I think that\u2019s a great application.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Super-helpful and relevant conversation today because last time I checked, almost all of us have a phone. I do, and I\u2019m pretty sure you do, too. So, we need to hear conversations like the one we heard today.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jay Kim on FamilyLife Today. Jay has written a book called The Analog Church: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. It\u2019s really a must read for anyone who is exploring the intersection of technology and church; really helpful insights on the implications of the digital age for stuff like worship and discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>So, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy. You can find the book in the show notes section at the bottom of the page, or you can just give us a call at 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes, when you talk about this subject\u2014when it comes to technology\u2014a lot of people can get very anxious about it. They think, \u201cI\u2019m doing the wrong things. I\u2019m not doing what I\u2019m supposed to be doing,\u201d or \u201cMaybe my life isn\u2019t where it\u2019s supposed to be right now when it comes to technology.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week, we had on a really amazing guest, Elizabeth Woodson, who talked about finding joy when the life you have is not the life that you hoped for. She wrote a book called Embrace Your Life, and it really helps you understand the contentment that you can find in the gap between where you currently are and what you desire for your life to look like.<\/p>\n<p>That book that Elizabeth wrote is going to be our gift to you when you give today at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can get your copy with any donation that you decide to give to FamilyLife. You can head online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And you can feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida, 32832.<\/p>\n<p>So, how does your smart phone act as a mirror? Is it promoting self-despair by fostering an inward-focused perspective with you? Jay Kim is back again tomorrow with Dave and Ann Wilson to help us understand our smart phones. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1744900525:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_344d727651aff5c1eadbec53938160f43841960b":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_344d727651aff5c1eadbec53938160f43841960b":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:74:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone: Jay Y. 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use my phone a lot. Doesn't everyone?\" Truth: Our phones are designed to keep us scrolling and swiping at all costs. Jay Kim reveals eye-opening ways our phones can create a prison for our souls and impact the life and future of the worldwide church. S...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at<a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/\"> jaykimthinks.com <\/a>and listen to his podcast <a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/podcast!\">jaykimthinks.com\/podcast<\/a> and follow him on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jaykimthinks\/\">Instagram<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/jaykimthinks\">Facebook<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jay Y Kim's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/analog-christian-cultivating-contentment-resilience-and-wisdom-in-the-digital-age\">Analog Christian on our shop.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about our phones in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-are-screens-influencing-us\/\">How Are Screens Influencing Us?<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Or we'll send it at no cost to you with a donation of any size this week, as our way of <a>saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-02-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone.<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jay Y. Kim<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone (Day 1 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:February 28, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think there\u2019s actually an increasing awareness of what digital technology is doing to us. I just read the other day\u2014somebody posted something about\u2014that where the trends are heading, in 10 to 15 years, having a primarily non-digital life will be sort of a status symbol, that you\u2019re living a much more full, rich life.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Alright, did you see the 20-something girl sitting beside me on the flight the other night?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The one that was on the computer?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did notice that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You noticed that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. You were sitting across the aisle; I don\u2019t know if you noticed this. She sat down, said \u201cHi, how are you doing?\u201d and that was the end of the conversation, because she opened her phone, and she never one time stopped scrolling. I shouldn\u2019t have been that nosy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, she had her computer on her lap.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She had that, too, but she had her phone going and her computer going. I just thought, \u201cShe\u2019s never turned it off,\u201d and I know she paid for the Wi-Fi (I never pay for the Wi-Fi because I\u2019m not going to spend that money).<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She had stuff to do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought, \u201cWhat a world we live in.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I thought, if I wanted to have a conversation, she would have been annoyed that I was interrupting her digital world.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She might have been creating the best manuscript of her life, and you\u2019re judging her?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m not judging her. [Laughter] I\u2019m just making an observation. We live in a digital time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re going to talk about that today with Jay Kim. He is in the digital world in California. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, thanks so much for having me. I\u2019m glad to be on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When you hear that story, is that unusual at all?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Not at all; not at all. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unusual for anybody listening.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t either. It\u2019s not unusual for us, either, because when we\u2019re on the plane, we\u2019re doing the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; we\u2019re going to talk about this whole thing. You\u2019ve thought a lot about it, [and] even wrote a book called Analog Christian: Cultivating Contentment, Resilience, and Wisdom in the Digital Age. Tell our listeners what you do. I know you pastor out in northern California.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, San Francisco Bay area. I\u2019m in a city called San Jose, right on the border of San Jose and Cupertino. People know Cupertino because that\u2019s where Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, in that little garage, started Apple. Apple\u2019s main campus, the big giant spaceship, is a seven-minute drive from our campus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I have been there basically my whole life, been a pastor there for over 20 years; and here we are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, let\u2019s talk about this analog idea, because of all people, you live right in the center of digital world. What were you thinking when you say, \u201cI have to compare the digital age with analog Christian?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Honestly, it didn\u2019t start out with the thought of writing a book. It just started out with a growing awareness of my own addiction to digital technology. I have two young kids. They are eight and five now, but when my son, the five-year-old, was born\u2014my daughter is three, and he\u2019s probably two, three weeks old\u2014I\u2019m watching them at home. They are lying on the floor, and my daughter leans over to give him a kiss on the cheek (her newborn baby brother) and I do what every parent does. I pull out my phone.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThis is it! This is my Instagram winner of the year!\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m already imagining how many likes, how many shares, all of that stuff. So, I take this photo, and then I just find myself, my actual human children are lying right in front of me, and I\u2019m just immersed in my screen trying to edit the photo with the right filter. You have to crop it right. I\u2019m trying to figure out the caption to get maximized likes.<\/p>\n<p>While I\u2019m doing this, I feel a tug on my pant leg. It\u2019s my three-year-old, so I look past the digital image of my daughter to my actual, human daughter, and she says to me, \u201cNo more email, Daddy. No more email.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow! A three-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: A three-year-old. And what it told me was, in three years of life, this little girl has already experienced me, her dad, physically present but absent in every other way, typically checking my email; that she just thought ,\u201cIt\u2019s happening again.\u201d So, that\u2019s what really started the journey for me.<\/p>\n<p>I knew there was something happening in me that I didn\u2019t want to continue, so I started reading a lot, not Christian writers, just secular writers who were writing extensively about what digital technologies were doing to us; not just what they were doing for us, but how they were forming us. And then, as a follower of Jesus, I realized the whole journey of following Jesus is about God, by His Spirit, forming us into a certain type of person.<\/p>\n<p>I realized digital technology is forming me. I\u2019m a disciple of digital, not a disciple of Jesus. So, that led to a long journey, which turned into this book and much of my work.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What did that journey look like? You said you went on a journey. It probably wasn\u2019t that day, but did you start to cut back?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. I just started instilling particular practices and boundaries around digital. Like you said, it didn\u2019t happen overnight.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I borrowed from a lot of great thinkers who have talked about instilling\u2014this is an ancient phrase, but instilling\u2014a sort of digital rule of life. There is a writer, Andy Crouch, who has written extensively about this, a dear friend. He\u2019s been such a huge help to me. He talks about \u201cparenting your phone.\u201d In other words, treating your phone as you would treat a three-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>So, in my home, even still, even though my kids are eight and five, the parents\u2014Jenny and I, my wife and I\u2014don\u2019t go to bed before our kids. We typically wake up before our kids, but we don\u2019t go to bed before our kids. So, same deal with our phone. I\u2019m not going to bed with my phone. I\u2019m putting my phone to bed before I go to bed, and I\u2019m waking up before my phone wakes up.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s basic things. Our phone doesn\u2019t sit on our nightstand in our bedroom. It\u2019s docked in the kitchen in a little station. So, it\u2019s simple things like that. There are several others, but for us, if I\u2019m not intentional about how I leverage my phone and use my phone, then what I know is the phone will just use me, because I\u2019ve experienced it, and I think a lot of listeners can relate.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: We don\u2019t think about it that way, but that\u2019s what happens.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, you actually don\u2019t sleep with your phone in the same room?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: No.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That sounds\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I like [how] you say you put your phone to bed. You dock it down in the kitchen, and you won\u2019t even have it by your bedside, because most of us\u2014we do this, we go to bed, [and] we\u2019re in bed with our phones in our hands.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, most people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Not us. We would never do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: [Laughter] We totally do it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Other people, I\u2019m sure. No, we do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s terrible. So, the mom right now is saying, \u201cWell, what if there\u2019s an emergency? What if someone is trying to get hold of me? I have adult kids, and [if] my phone\u2019s in the kitchen, I don\u2019t hear it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. I would say, let\u2019s remind ourselves that for the entirety of human history until 15 years ago, we did not have phones on our bedside. [Laughter] So, it is possible to live life, right? That much is certain.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is possible.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It is possible to live life without a smartphone and access to the worldwide web of the internet in your final moments before slumber. That is possible. I get it. What if there is an emergency? I don\u2019t know. Maybe what that looks like is getting a landline, and someone can call you if you\u2019re really that concerned. For us, I would say the reason we are able to do this is because the emergencies that matter most, we would know, because it\u2019s in our home.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, they\u2019re right there.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s my children, it\u2019s my wife right next to me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think the push and the pull is interesting. We can say that: \u201cWhat if something happens? Here\u2019s my phone.\u201d But the reality is you have your phone with you, attached to you, in that way. Something is happening that entire time, in that you are detaching from the people you probably care about the most, who are right next to you.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of people will say to me, \u201cWell, how will I wake up?\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cThere\u2019s a thing called \u2018clocks.\u2019 They are still available.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s really funny. I don\u2019t know. We\u2019re so attached, we\u2019re so addicted, it\u2019s very difficult to imagine a life without it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re a pastor of a church. You\u2019re talking to Gen Z; you\u2019re talking to all different age groups of people. When you say this, or you preach about this, which I\u2019m assuming you have at church,\u2014Jay: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014what\u2019s the response, especially from kids? Gen Z has been growing up with this. They\u2019ve had this in their hands.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: They\u2019re very open.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are they?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Very open. I think there\u2019s actually an increasing awareness of what digital technology is doing to us. I\u2019m actually quite hopeful that when my children are teenagers and in their college years and in their 20s and young adulthood\u2014I am really hopeful that\u2014the paradigm shifts significantly. I just read the other day\u2014somebody posted something about they think\u2014that where the trends are heading, that in 10 to 15 years, having a primarily non-digital life will be sort of a status symbol, that you\u2019re living a much more full, rich life.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I don\u2019t know if they\u2019re right, but I really, really hope they\u2019re right. Digital is never going away. In fact, I just need to be clear: I\u2019m not anti-digital.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I have a smart phone. I use my laptop. I use Zoom and all of those things. I have an Instagram, all of those things. It\u2019s not about the technology, it\u2019s about what we allow or do not allow the technology to do to us. We have control over that, if we decide to take control.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Have you ever done this? My phone will be sitting on my thigh as I\u2019m watching TV or sitting with Ann, and it won\u2019t even be just email or text. It will be a sermon thought, and I\u2019ll pull it out and make sure I get it in my sermon notes for the weekend. She\u2019s looking at me like, \u201cWhere\u2019d you just go?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s like I went to my office, which I would have done in the old days, shut the door, this is my time to do this, and I come out, I\u2019m present. But now, I\u2019m never really ever separated from that world. Is that your reality as well?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, 100 percent, even still to this day. There is always the temptation to detach myself from what is actually happening in the present moment, because my brain has been hardwired to move at the pace of the internet. That\u2019s another thing that\u2019s happening to us, so we\u2019re growing really impatient. We\u2019re very scattered, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Because we have access to so much, we\u2019re constantly sort of moving, mentally, emotionally, to someplace else. You think about sitting at a red light, you know? I\u2019m always tempted, sitting at a red light, and it\u2019s a long red light; what do we do?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I usually just go. [Laughter] I just go ahead. Ask Ann. No cars coming? I just go.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right. That\u2019s an option. That\u2019s an option. For most people, there\u2019s the temptation, and in some states it\u2019s illegal. You can get a ticket.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It is. It\u2019s now illegal in Michigan to pull out your phone at a stop sign.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Or ever, in your car.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. In California you can\u2019t physically touch your phone while you are in your car; but I see people doing it every day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Every day, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: At stoplights; all the time, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And it\u2019s because there\u2019s something in us that cannot\u2014cannot\u2014be still in place anymore. There was a time\u2014you know, everyone listening to this hopefully can remember; there was a time\u2014where, at a red light, we would enter a brief little season, a moment of time that was called \u201cboredom.\u201d [Laughter] And you\u2019re talking about sermons. You know what\u2019s really interesting?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: For me, when I really think about it, yes, sometimes, I see something or I hear something, and I think, \u201cOh, my gosh. I have to remember that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And I capture it, but my best thoughts usually come when it\u2019s quiet and boring, and my mind and my heart have enough space to just be still. That creates the room for God to start filling us with whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I think we have to learn to embrace boredom again, because I do think boredom is the path to creativity and beauty, and we so rarely get there because we\u2019re constantly distracted.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about this: is it an escape? Because when you say that, there is part of me that thinks we\u2019re uncomfortable with silence, we\u2019re uncomfortable with thinking deeply.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think, in a marriage, it can be a distraction that we use to not engage.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As I sat beside that young lady on the plane, I thought, \u201cShe doesn\u2019t want to talk.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And if I turned and said, \u201cHey, so where are you going?\u201d which I rarely do, it would have been an intrusion into her digital world that she didn\u2019t want. It was her way of saying, \u201cI\u2019m closing off you and everybody else.\u201d I think we do the same thing in our marriage. Is that something you\u2019ve found? It\u2019s an escape?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, absolutely. I think we create little bubbles around ourselves. Go to any coffee shop these days. You know, again, pre-smart phone, there was a time when, in a coffee shop, typically you\u2019d be\u2014even if you\u2019re there for long, extended periods of time, typically you are\u2014working or having a conversation with a friend, with background, ambient sounds of humans talking in a coffee shop.<\/p>\n<p>Now, you have a bunch of disconnected individuals with these little white pods in their ears, and socially, [when] you see the white air pods, what does it tell you? Exactly your point, Dave.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You don\u2019t see the physical bubble, but these little white knobs are a bubble.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: \u201cDo not intrude; do not step in. This is sort of my space.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, of course it makes all the sense in the world that all of the data is showing us that, since about 2012, rates of loneliness and isolation have spiked amongst teenagers, because it was in 2012 that we started putting smartphones in the hands of teenagers. Researchers, not Christian, just high-level social scientists like Jonathan Haidt and Jean Twenge, have done this work for several decades now, and it\u2019s pretty clear. The smart phone has disconnected us.<\/p>\n<p>A writer, Sherry Turkle, has a book titled Alone Together, which I think is so true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You think about going out\u2014I was at dinner on Friday night on my own after I landed, and I\u2019m alone\u2014actually, physically alone, but I wasn\u2019t wearing air pods or anything. I didn\u2019t have my phone out. I was just eating some fajitas with the ambient sound of the restaurant.<\/p>\n<p>It was a full, busy restaurant, but what was so alarming to me and, sadly, not surprising, was so many of the people in this restaurant were sitting face-to-face, but they were alone together, just immersed in their screens. I thought, \u201cMan, here you are. You\u2019re sharing a meal, breaking bread. You could be having all sorts of rich, honest, genuine conversation face-to-face, and you\u2019re just completely alone together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s something we have to be mindful of. That\u2019s not the sort of life any of us really want to live, but it seems to be the lives we are living.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, you have an eight-year-old.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When are you going to let them have a cell phone?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Jenny and I (my wife and I) talk about this a lot. We think middle school, but we\u2019re pretty convinced that it will not be a smart phone. A friend of ours actually recommended the Apple watch for teenagers. It\u2019s actually a great tool, because you can\u2019t do social media on the watch, but you have access to everything else you really need. Mom and Dad can text you; you can call us. So, that\u2019s kind of where we\u2019re leaning right now.<\/p>\n<p>Either that, or just an old flip phone, and she can download that game, Snake, that I used to play all the time on my old Nokia\u00ae. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you want her to experience it?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Even back then, I was distracted just playing Snake on that little green screen with the black, but it was a different kind of distraction. We think we\u2019ll probably do the Apple watch, so she can text and call but not have social media. That\u2019s another thing we\u2019re pretty adamant about, and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s going to turn into a big fight in our house.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s enough data that tells us putting social\u2014I think, just my opinion\u2014I think 30 years from now, we\u2019ll look back, and we will look at what we\u2019re doing right now, which is allowing 12-year-olds to get on social media, we\u2019ll look back on that the way we would look back now as if we had put cigarettes in the hands of 12-year-olds 30 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: For sure.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s literally killing a generation. So, for us, we\u2019re not going to do social media. When she turns 18, it\u2019s her own choice, but for now that\u2019s kind of where we\u2019re at.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She can figure it out.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You started the program talking about how you\u2019ve learned to put your phone to bed.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You dock it, and you go upstairs, go to sleep; and then you wake your phone up. You purposely come down, and you\u2019re choosing when to have your phone on, instead of having it in your hand when you go to bed and when you wake up. Tell us the difference that that has made for you, because you said that you were pretty much present, but you weren\u2019t present with your family and kids. Has it changed? What does it feel like now?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It changed everything.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. Jenny and I have actual conversation before bed. [Laughter] Not just quippy little things, \u201cHey, look what I saw on Twitter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you really weren\u2019t doing that before?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: We weren\u2019t. No. We were both just scrolling, and occasionally we\u2019d say, \u201cHey, look at this funny meme on Instagram.\u201d That\u2019s not real conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, she decided to do this as well. You both did.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, and my wife took it a step further; before I started putting the phone to bed, before all of that, she got off of all social media about four years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Still off?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Still off.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She\u2019ll never go back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How does she function? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I don\u2019t know. I ask her that every day. How are you even alive without Twitter? [Laughter] How is this possible? Yes, she will never go back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She has no temptation. Several things: one, just time; the simplicity of\u2014she realized; she says, \u201cI did not realize how much time social media was stealing from me.\u201d In fact, I would encourage everybody: just take inventory. Your phone can do it for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It will tell you how much time you\u2019re spending on your phone on various apps.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, it\u2019s so depressing!<\/p>\n<p>Jay: If you never look at it, you should look at it, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Because it will give you a clear\u2014and then, do some of the math. What does that look like over the course of a week, a month, a year, ten years?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: And you will be alarmed at how much of your life is stolen by this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Does yours do what mine does? It lets me know how many hours on Sunday morning.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that a thing? Because I\u2019m always at church!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, I know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it\u2019s convicting. I\u2019m getting ready to preach, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s the Holy Spirit, \u201cDave, this week\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cCan\u2019t we do this tomorrow? Why right now?\u201d It just reminds you, \u201cThis is not important! And look what you did this week.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t know it was Sunday morning for everybody.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think you can change it, but, yes, for mine, it\u2019s Sunday.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, really, she stayed off?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: She stayed off. She loves it. It\u2019s not just the time either. She just feels way less anxious. There\u2019s a lot of research that shows social media is designed to make you anxious, because it is the thing that keeps you coming back. It\u2019s one of those sort of neurological triggers that will keep you coming back. \u201cDid I get more likes? Did I get more likes? What\u2019s happening in the world? If I don\u2019t know, then that\u2019s problematic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: So, it\u2019s been a huge game changer for me every morning, because the phone is not the first thing for me. I just have a ritual. I pour myself a pour-over coffee, and I read a Psalm or a section of the Gospels, and then I\u2019ll just drink that cup of coffee, continuing to read and meditate on God\u2019s Word.<\/p>\n<p>You know, there is all of that research that shows, if you do something for 21 straight days, it becomes sort of habitual, and that\u2019s been true for me. It\u2019s been habit-forming, so now, I feel abnormal if I can\u2019t do that in the morning; and that\u2019s where we want to get, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: So, yes, it\u2019s been a game changer. Those are just a few things, but there have been a lot more that have been really helpful for me.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019ll talk about that some more tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. I was just thinking, if a married couple listening just did what you said\u2014<\/p>\n<p>if we did it, forget our listeners! [Laughter] If we did it, that\u2019s a game changer for your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019m guessing your daughter is not coming up to you anymore and saying, \u201cGet off email.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because it\u2019s not as prevalent as it was, right?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes, that\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love it. I think that\u2019s a great application.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Super-helpful and relevant conversation today because last time I checked, almost all of us have a phone. I do, and I\u2019m pretty sure you do, too. So, we need to hear conversations like the one we heard today.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jay Kim on FamilyLife Today. Jay has written a book called The Analog Church: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. It\u2019s really a must read for anyone who is exploring the intersection of technology and church; really helpful insights on the implications of the digital age for stuff like worship and discipleship.<\/p>\n<p>So, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy. You can find the book in the show notes section at the bottom of the page, or you can just give us a call at 800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes, when you talk about this subject\u2014when it comes to technology\u2014a lot of people can get very anxious about it. They think, \u201cI\u2019m doing the wrong things. I\u2019m not doing what I\u2019m supposed to be doing,\u201d or \u201cMaybe my life isn\u2019t where it\u2019s supposed to be right now when it comes to technology.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week, we had on a really amazing guest, Elizabeth Woodson, who talked about finding joy when the life you have is not the life that you hoped for. She wrote a book called Embrace Your Life, and it really helps you understand the contentment that you can find in the gap between where you currently are and what you desire for your life to look like.<\/p>\n<p>That book that Elizabeth wrote is going to be our gift to you when you give today at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can get your copy with any donation that you decide to give to FamilyLife. You can head online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And you can feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you\u2019d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida, 32832.<\/p>\n<p>So, how does your smart phone act as a mirror? Is it promoting self-despair by fostering an inward-focused perspective with you? Jay Kim is back again tomorrow with Dave and Ann Wilson to help us understand our smart phones. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280323","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280323"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280323"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280323"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280323"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280323"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280323"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280323"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}