{"id":280321,"date":"2024-03-01T10:15:00","date_gmt":"2024-03-01T15:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim\/"},"modified":"2025-04-17T10:23:50","modified_gmt":"2025-04-17T14:23:50","slug":"is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim\/","title":{"rendered":"Is Digital Church Enough? Jay Y. Kim"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Love the flexibility of attending digital church services from your sofa? Get skeptical. With Jay Y. Kim, discover why it impacts worship and community.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Love the flexibility of attending digital church services from your sofa? Get skeptical. With Jay Y. Kim, discover why it impacts worship and community. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at jaykimthinks.com an&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/0a3d7449-684a-4935-9aad-b154011c2dec\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:16","filesize":"28.66M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-03-01 10:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2166],"podcast_series":[8734],"cwp_profile":[9923],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280321","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-digital-church","podcast_series-theology-why-should-i-care-jen-wilkin-j-t-english","cwp_profile-jay-y-kim","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280321\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280321\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"adi3HI5HQU\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim\/\">Is Digital Church Enough? Jay Y. Kim<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-digital-church-enough-jay-y-kim\/embed\/#?secret=adi3HI5HQU\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Is Digital Church Enough? Jay Y. Kim&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"adi3HI5HQU\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-016384"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/0a3d7449-684a-4935-9aad-b154011c2dec\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:31:16"],"filesize":["28.66M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<p>Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at<a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/\"> jaykimthinks.com <\/a>and listen to his podcast <a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/podcast!\">jaykimthinks.com\/podcast<\/a> and follow him on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jaykimthinks\/\">Instagram<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/jaykimthinks\">Facebook<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jay Y Kim's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/analog-christian-cultivating-contentment-resilience-and-wisdom-in-the-digital-age\">Analog Christian on our shop.<\/a><br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about our phones in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-are-screens-influencing-us\/\">How Are Screens Influencing Us?<\/a><br \/>\nOr we'll send it at no cost to you with a donation of any size this week, as our way of <a>saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-03-01.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Is Digital Church Enough?<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jay Y. Kim<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone (Day 3 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:March 1, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Being together really matters. It\u2019s not that digital is evil. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s unhelpful. It\u2019s quite helpful, but it\u2019s just not enough. We need people.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let me ask you a question: what do you think of digital church?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting question, because it\u2019s bigger now than it\u2019s ever been, especially since Covid.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I want to know what you think.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you [have been] married to a pastor for 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I don\u2019t think I could do it. I need the presence of people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do what? You mean watch church online.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; especially if you have a family, you\u2019re listening but you\u2019re cooking; you\u2019re changing diapers\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you\u2019re riding the stationary bike.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s good you can do two things at once, but it doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There\u2019s also something about corporate worship together in a body. I don\u2019t think I realized it until after Covid, until we were together with a larger\u2014not even a huge group of people, but a larger\u2014group of people worshipping together. I remember crying because it felt like my soul was so hungry for that corporate worship.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got a pastor in the studio with us. Jay Kim is back [for] day three. He wrote a book called Analog Christian. Now\u2014I guess you wrote Analog Church before Analog Christian.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a pastor, I\u2019m sure your church is\u2014I know your church is online, because I went and looked.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I did. As I was reading through your book, Jay, I thought, \u201cI have an idea what their church is going to look like\u201d (what your Sunday service is). It was totally different than what I expected. I\u2019ll explain that in a minute.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome back. Today we\u2019re going to talk about the digital world in the church space and, especially, how families can interact with that. Why did you write this one?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I wrote it several years ago. I wrote it before Covid\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You did, before Covid?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: \u2014before the pandemic. Interesting story about Analog Church\u2014it\u2019s a book about why we need embodied presence to show up to church. It came out in March of 2020. It came out two weeks after.<\/p>\n<p>I released the book [which said], \u201cGo to church. It\u2019s important to go to church and be with people.\u201d Also, \u201cDon\u2019t go to church. It\u2019s against the law. Don\u2019t go to church right now.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cDon\u2019t go to prison.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a weird month. The publisher and I had lots of conversations saying, \u201cDo we delay?\u201d Long story short, we decided to just release it. In hindsight, I\u2019m grateful that we did because if there was anything I would want to remind people of during that season when, for better or for worse, we couldn\u2019t be together, this book is what I would have wanted to say.<\/p>\n<p>When we\u2019re able, to your point, getting together, being together, really matters. It\u2019s not that digital is evil. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s unhelpful. It\u2019s quite helpful, but it\u2019s just not enough. We need people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love the subtitle: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. You\u2019re saying to the many people who are only watching church digitally, you would say, \u201cI don\u2019t think it\u2019s enough.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. At the same time, I want to be sensitive. I didn\u2019t do a good job in Analog Church of addressing particular realities. There are a lot of shut-ins in our church. Especially after the pandemic, there are lots of people in our church who are immunocompromised. They have real anxiety about being in large crowds. I want to be sensitive to that. For that, I\u2019m grateful that we have digital.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I don\u2019t address in that book, again, because I wrote it a while ago, is every time I meet someone new at our church, they tell me that they\u2019ve been watching us online for several weeks, at minimum, and usually for several months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s the new lobby.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It is exactly that; it is exactly that. For that reason, I\u2019m grateful. It\u2019s giving people access. What that tells me is, those people aren\u2019t watching because they\u2019re lazy and they don\u2019t want to drive to church. They\u2019re watching\u2014and I get this\u2014because they\u2019re not sure, thinking, \u201cAre these people normal? Is this going to be helpful to me? Does my family fit in? Do I see some kids in there? Do they talk about some kids\u2019 stuff for our kids and our family?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s a real gift that we have digital. There\u2019s a balance there for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about this: one of the [reasons] I checked you out online [was] to see what your church is like. I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to tune into your church, and it\u2019s going to be this small acoustic guitar guy sitting on a stool, and everybody\u2019s in a circle on a carpet like a house.\u201d Yet there it was: you have lights and a very contemporary experience of church. I thought, \u201cWow! That\u2019s interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>How does that jive together?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I am not a baby-out-with-the-bath water sort of guy. I try to make it clear in the book that what I\u2019m not saying is, \u201cLights are bad.\u201d What I\u2019m not saying is, \u201cAmplified sound it bad.\u201d For us, what it\u2019s about is distraction.<\/p>\n<p>For example, if the lights are helpful in pointing our people to the right things: God and Jesus as the center of our worship gathering, [and] one another as the people of God, then use lights. If amplified sound is helpful to point people and to gather in the right way, then do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jay, let\u2019s say you have a Gen Z kid who thinks, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go. Is it okay for me to just watch digitally, Mom and Dad?\u201d You guys think, \u201cI\u2019m just going to watch digitally because there\u2019s a pastor in another part of the country that I like, and I\u2019m going to watch that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As a parent, how would you respond to those questions?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s a great question, Ann. I think I would say, \u201cWatching digitally\u2014oh, you like that pastor? The way he teaches is helpful for you? By all means!\u201d Because the content matters; information matters; inspiration, which is possible digitally, [and] all of those things really matter. This conversation right now is a part of that. People aren\u2019t all in the room with us, but the masses will be listening to this digitally with headphones on or on their screen, whatever it might be. That really matters. I think I would encourage the good saying, \u201cI\u2019m so happy you\u2019re hungry to learn more and to hear more and to receive the Word of God and all those things.\u201d But I think I would also make really clear, \u201cThere\u2019s more for you. When you\u2019re ready, we\u2019d love for you to join us, or maybe there\u2019s another church community in town that resonates.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At a certain point, the information is a part of the journey, but it is not the end of the journey. The information needs to get us to a place where we feel real belonging amongst a community of people, the people of God.<\/p>\n<p>I think accentuating the good by saying, \u201cI\u2019m so happy you\u2019re hungry for this!\u201d But also, \u201cWhen you\u2019re ready, I\u2019ll do whatever I can to help you find your people.\u201d Hopefully it\u2019s at the same church, but if it\u2019s not, the priority is that they find their people, the people of God, that they can journey with. I think that\u2019s how I would respond.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about how, maybe\u2014the house church journey. The next generation, sometimes (I\u2019ve seen a little bit of this) reacting against mega[-church]. I\u2019m not just talking big, but produced and slick, and a guy standing on a stage and everybody listening.<\/p>\n<p>Frances Chan wrote Letters to the Church and talked about his journey. He was in your area of the world with a megachurch and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve created a place where people become consumers, and they come and they listen to me preach, and then they go do nothing rather than saying, \u2018Let\u2019s get on the streets,\u2019\u201d which is the journey he took.<\/p>\n<p>I know a lot of the next generation is seeing that and saying, \u201cThat\u2019s what the church should be.\u201d How do you respond to that?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I\u2019m grateful that there are lots of churches and lots of different types of churches. It\u2019s pretty tempting to pit one model against the other. The church where I serve is a large church; it\u2019s a large multi-site church. There are pros and cons to that. There are pros and cons to the house church. It may very well be that somebody meets Jesus for the first time at our church because nothing was asked of them, and it was just a place to heal.<\/p>\n<p>This is a real story. A few months ago, a young family in our neighborhood\u2014they\u2019re marginally Muslim; they grew up Muslim, but they\u2019re not practicing. They\u2019re certainly not Christian. We had the thing that mega-churches do and totally get criticized [for]. We did the big fall family festival thing. This family comes, and their daughter said, \u201cDad, Mom, this is right across the street from our house. This is awesome. I want to come back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The dad and mom asked one of our staff, \u201cIs there anything for kids on Sundays? We\u2019re not Christian.\u201d They responded, \u201cYes, we\u2019d love to have your family.\u201d That family comes back that Sunday. Their daughter loves our kids\u2019 ministry. Long story short, several months later they gave their lives to Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not telling that story to say, \u201cYou see? The mega-church is the answer to the world\u2019s problems,\u201d because if that couple journeys with us for several years, they very well may get to a place when their young daughter is 15 where they realize, you know we\u2019ve reached the limit of how much we can grow in terms of depth here. There\u2019s this house church down the road, and they\u2019re really digging in. That\u2019s going to be best for our daughter and for us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would say, \u201cIf that\u2019s true, then bless you as you go. I\u2019m so grateful our church got to play a part in that journey.\u201d On the flip side (and this is just my own two cents): one of the weaknesses of the house churches that I know is, they\u2019re so great at forming community and digging depth. I don\u2019t necessarily, in my part of the world, see a whole lot of, \u201cI was in darkness. Now, through this house church, I found the light of Jesus.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t see a lot of that there, but they\u2019re incredible for forging real, deep Christian community. Why pit us against one another? Why not dance together and say, \u201cOur goal is all the same. It\u2019s the Kingdom of God, and people far from God coming to know God, and then to be formed into Christlikeness; so, let\u2019s do this together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s good. Talk to the mom or dad that has a teenager that says, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go.\u201d How does it\u2014you\u2019re a pastor, I\u2019m a pastor; our kids were growing up in a pastor\u2019s home in a church\u2014what do you say to that parent who really wants to do the analog and thinks, \u201cI want to be in a room, and I want to sing with people, with flesh around me. There\u2019s an experience that\u2019s so dynamic about that, but my kids don\u2019t want to. What do I do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: First thought that comes to mind is, we can\u2019t want something for someone ever. It\u2019s just not possible. My wife is a high school teacher. She teaches special ed and loves her students and wants the best for them. I watch her pour herself out. This is something she\u2019s taught me: \u201cI want it so bad for them, but I cannot want it for them.\u201d That\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so hard, isn\u2019t it, as parents?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s so hard, especially as parents, because you would give your life for them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: But you can\u2019t want it for them. That\u2019s what\u2019s hard: the limits of our own abilities. The second thought I would say is, and maybe this is a bit more practical: you don\u2019t have to go to experience analog. We can be proactive and bring analog to our kids. I know that\u2019s a big ask.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It looks like calling your youth pastor and saying, \u201cMy kid doesn\u2019t want to go. I\u2019m not going to force him. Is there anything happening that\u2019s a neutral space?\u201d or \u201cIs there any sort of way my kid\u2014my kid likes x, y, and z.\u201d Maybe it\u2019s a big church and the youth pastor isn\u2019t accessible. If it is a big church, and it\u2019s a healthy youth ministry, that means there are lots of leaders who are focused on your teenager\u2019s age group. Be proactive.<\/p>\n<p>I think we default to, \u201cIf I can just get my kid through that door, all the professional Christians in that room will solve the problem.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s not true. It is partnership. There\u2019s a way to partner. This is not to say, every church in America, you call them, and their youth pastor is going to show up at your door. No, they\u2019re very busy and what not.<\/p>\n<p>But healthy ministries, they will at least care, and they will work with you, saying, \u201cOkay, what can we do? What can we figure out? What is he into? Here\u2019s some of that that\u2019s coming up. Do you think he\u2019d come to this? Maybe I\u2019ll call him directly and do a personal invite.\u201d Or maybe it\u2019s, \u201cHe\u2019s not comfortable yet, and I\u2019ll take him to coffee or grab lunch and hear his story.\u201d That\u2019s very analog, and it\u2019s not in the building. We can bring analog to our kids. I think we\u2019ve got to be creative about those things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to the parents that are\u2014we\u2019ve talked about this quite a bit on FamilyLife Today, where our kids were in the youth group at whatever-sized church, thriving, [and] seemed like [they had] vibrant faith. They go away to college, or they leave the home after [they are] 17, 18, or 19 years old, and there\u2019s an epidemic of them walking away. They were once part of a vital church ministry.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re a pastor. You think about these things all the time. And you\u2019re a dad. How do you address that whole situation?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: There\u2019s been so much good work done along these lines. I think about Barna Group, [which] has a lot of data, a lot of research. [There are] lots of people doing lots of great work. I think to summarize much of the work, a couple of things come to mind. Maybe the most important thing\u2014are you guys familiar with \u201cMaslov\u2019s Hierarchy of Needs?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You guys are obviously familiar with that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was out way before you were born.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Way before! Long before me. [Laughter] Toward the end of his life, Maslov added something at the peak of the pyramid called \u201ctranscendence,\u201d which is like a desire for God.<\/p>\n<p>For those listening who aren\u2019t familiar, the Maslov pyramid or the hierarchy of needs is just basically a way to think about how humans prioritize needs. At the very bottom of the pyramid would be food and water, meaning if we\u2019re having a conversation, and we\u2019re talking about the meaning of life but I\u2019m starving to death, I\u2019m not interested in seeing the meaning of life. I just need a bite to eat and some water to drink. But once we get those needs, the meaning of life matters.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting to me is, belonging, the need to belong, comes before the need for identity and meaning in life. I think in the church, one of the things we have not done well, especially in youth groups, is, we\u2019ve accidentally reversed those two things on the pyramid. We think if we can teach kids to believe the right things, to know everything there is to know about the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus and all those things, which are of utmost importance, then that will lead them to a long-lasting faith.<\/p>\n<p>But what we\u2019re discovering is that the passionate kid in youth group that was all gung-ho about Jesus; they turn 18, they go away to college, they\u2019re in a brand new environment, and the entire infrastructure of their youth ministry\u2014friends and leaders who loved them and knew them; belonging\u2014that\u2019s been removed, and then faith just deconstructs. Because all the information about, \u201cwho you are in Christ\u201d and \u201cwhat\u2019s true about Jesus and your life,\u201d [and] those things come after you have the safety of, \u201cI\u2019m known, and I\u2019m loved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the first thought that comes to mind. I think we have to do a better job of helping teenagers, as they gain independence in college, or they begin their working life or whatever. In the church, the local church and campus ministries, and on and on, we have to be really intentional. We\u2019ve got to create accessible, safe, large onramps for them to belong, for them to find a community that can know them, and they can know and be seen and known and loved.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that possible with digital church, or does that need to be quite often analog? I\u2019ve got to be around people, not just in a digital space, but in a real physical space.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I absolutely agree. I think digital can be a wonderful onramp to it. You said earlier digital is the new lobby. That\u2019s true for teenagers, too; so, especially for teenagers.<\/p>\n<p>Every time we have high school graduates in our church graduate, our youth ministry will find out where they\u2019re going to college. Then we\u2019ll put together a packet for them [of], \u201cHere are all the campus ministries and all of the churches that we vouch for in that area.\u201d Then we\u2019ll do our best to connect them directly to a leader. That\u2019s all digital.<\/p>\n<p>What these kids do is, they go online, and they check all these churches and ministries\u2019 Instagrams, saying, \u201cWhat are these folks like?\u201d That\u2019s the onramp, but it inevitably, hopefully, leads to a coffee conversation with a leader or one of the pastors and that becomes an analog experience.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I think they have to play together: digital and analog.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is there something to a family sitting together in a worship space? I\u2019m talking analog. As a pastor, we had all the different age groups. The kids went here, middle school went here, high school went here. It was rare in our situation that they sat together\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014maybe at Christmas.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014mom, dad, single mom, single dad in a pew. We didn\u2019t have pews, but in seats. Is there something to that environment? We can do it in a home, but even in a church situation.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think so. I think it really matters. Just my two cents: I think it matters more in the home. It matters more in the home, worshipping together in the home. My mom used to make me sit down with her and read the Bible and pray the Lord\u2019s Prayer with her every night growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I hated it. [Laughter] I hated it. I dreaded it. It felt like the biggest waste of time. But it formed something in me. Now, I make my kids do it. We read their little Kids\u2019 Bible. We don\u2019t pray the Lord\u2019s Prayer. In our home we actually do\u2014there\u2019s this ancient 16th Century practice called \u201cThe Daily Examen\u201d or \u201cThe Prayer of Examen.\u201d It\u2019s a Jesuit practice [from] Saint Ignatius of Loyola.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a way to reflect on your day. We do that with our kids, including our five-year-old. He\u2019s super fidgety, and he tries to rush through the prayer. But I\u2019m watching him, over time, get a sense of, \u201cOh, we\u2019re creating over time a certain type of space. This is a particular type of rhythm for our family.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, what they experience at church becomes simply an extension of what we do at home. Both are important.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jay, I love that we\u2019re ending with that, because worshiping together at church is important. But you are right, it begins in the home. That piece is critical. It bonds you as a family spiritually. I think our kids are watching us, and they\u2019re thinking, \u201cThis really matters to mom and dad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You mentioned quite a bit in your book about transcendence; that we\u2019re made for that. You just explained you are bringing that into your home for an eight- and a five-year-old who may not understand exactly what\u2019s happening but they\u2019re\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013I like that you said you hated it growing up, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I totally did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They may say that 20 years from now, but I bet they\u2019re going to keep it going. It\u2019s going to be the Kim heritage and legacy. It\u2019s going to be awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a great step of practicality for families, saying, \u201cWhat could that look like for our family to worship together or do something together?\u201d It\u2019s formative in what they\u2019re learning.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jay Kim on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jay\u2019s written a book called Analog Church: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. I think all of us can understand and relate to that: why we need real people, places, and things, because so much now is living in the digital world. This book helps us to explore that intersection between technology and the real life-ness of church.<\/p>\n<p>You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, where you can find the book in the \u201cShow Notes\u201d section at the bottom of the page, or you can give us a call at 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get a copy.<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week, we got to hear from the amazing Elizabeth Woodson, who wrote a book called Embrace Your Life. The subtitle of that book is How to Find Joy When the Life You Have is Not the Life You Hoped For. I think anybody would hear that subtitle and think, \u201cYes, that\u2019s me.\u201d At least to a certain degree, that\u2019s you.<\/p>\n<p>She helped us find contentment in that gap between where we want our life to be and where our life actually is. This book addresses finding joy and hope in that gap during those present moments. This book by Elizabeth Woodson is going to be our gift to you when you give today. You can get your copy of her book now with any donation. Just go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you would like to. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, it\u2019s Friday, so I want to ask you to pray for all the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening this weekend in, specifically, Minneapolis, Montgomery, Omaha, and Rochester.<\/p>\n<p>With over 40 events across the country, they\u2019re still happening this spring, and there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com to find a date and a location that works for you and your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Coming up next week, I had a conversation with Dave and Ann Wilson talking about what young people are dealing with today in terms of dating, relationships, sex, and communication. It is going to be an incredible conversation. I loved hanging out with the Wilsons and talking about all this. I, Shelby Abbott, will be on next week on FamilyLife Today. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1746036911:47000"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_a6d5bcf926c25b488709b5e8632f792a3237d035":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_a6d5bcf926c25b488709b5e8632f792a3237d035":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:66:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Is Digital Church Enough? Jay Y. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776492196;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Love the flexibility of attending digital church services from your sofa? Get skeptical. With Jay Y. Kim, discover why it impacts worship and community. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at jaykimthinks.com an...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Connect with Jay Y. Kim and catch more of his thoughts at<a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/\"> jaykimthinks.com <\/a>and listen to his podcast <a href=\"http:\/\/jaykimthinks.com\/podcast!\">jaykimthinks.com\/podcast<\/a> and follow him on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jaykimthinks\/\">Instagram<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/jaykimthinks\">Facebook<\/a>.<br \/>\nAnd grab Jay Y Kim's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/analog-christian-cultivating-contentment-resilience-and-wisdom-in-the-digital-age\">Analog Christian on our shop.<\/a><br \/>\nIntrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about our phones in our FamilyLife episode, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-are-screens-influencing-us\/\">How Are Screens Influencing Us?<\/a><br \/>\nOr we'll send it at no cost to you with a donation of any size this week, as our way of <a>saying a huge \"Thank you!\" for partnering with us toward stronger families around the world.<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-03-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Is Digital Church Enough?<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Jay Y. Kim<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Help! I\u2019m Addicted to My Phone (Day 3 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:March 1, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Being together really matters. It\u2019s not that digital is evil. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s unhelpful. It\u2019s quite helpful, but it\u2019s just not enough. We need people.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let me ask you a question: what do you think of digital church?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Interesting question, because it\u2019s bigger now than it\u2019s ever been, especially since Covid.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I want to know what you think.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you [have been] married to a pastor for 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I don\u2019t think I could do it. I need the presence of people.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do what? You mean watch church online.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; especially if you have a family, you\u2019re listening but you\u2019re cooking; you\u2019re changing diapers\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014you\u2019re riding the stationary bike.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s good you can do two things at once, but it doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: There\u2019s also something about corporate worship together in a body. I don\u2019t think I realized it until after Covid, until we were together with a larger\u2014not even a huge group of people, but a larger\u2014group of people worshipping together. I remember crying because it felt like my soul was so hungry for that corporate worship.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019ve got a pastor in the studio with us. Jay Kim is back [for] day three. He wrote a book called Analog Christian. Now\u2014I guess you wrote Analog Church before Analog Christian.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a pastor, I\u2019m sure your church is\u2014I know your church is online, because I went and looked.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I did. As I was reading through your book, Jay, I thought, \u201cI have an idea what their church is going to look like\u201d (what your Sunday service is). It was totally different than what I expected. I\u2019ll explain that in a minute.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome back. Today we\u2019re going to talk about the digital world in the church space and, especially, how families can interact with that. Why did you write this one?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I wrote it several years ago. I wrote it before Covid\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You did, before Covid?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: \u2014before the pandemic. Interesting story about Analog Church\u2014it\u2019s a book about why we need embodied presence to show up to church. It came out in March of 2020. It came out two weeks after.<\/p>\n<p>I released the book [which said], \u201cGo to church. It\u2019s important to go to church and be with people.\u201d Also, \u201cDon\u2019t go to church. It\u2019s against the law. Don\u2019t go to church right now.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cDon\u2019t go to prison.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was a weird month. The publisher and I had lots of conversations saying, \u201cDo we delay?\u201d Long story short, we decided to just release it. In hindsight, I\u2019m grateful that we did because if there was anything I would want to remind people of during that season when, for better or for worse, we couldn\u2019t be together, this book is what I would have wanted to say.<\/p>\n<p>When we\u2019re able, to your point, getting together, being together, really matters. It\u2019s not that digital is evil. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s unhelpful. It\u2019s quite helpful, but it\u2019s just not enough. We need people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love the subtitle: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. You\u2019re saying to the many people who are only watching church digitally, you would say, \u201cI don\u2019t think it\u2019s enough.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Yes. At the same time, I want to be sensitive. I didn\u2019t do a good job in Analog Church of addressing particular realities. There are a lot of shut-ins in our church. Especially after the pandemic, there are lots of people in our church who are immunocompromised. They have real anxiety about being in large crowds. I want to be sensitive to that. For that, I\u2019m grateful that we have digital.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I don\u2019t address in that book, again, because I wrote it a while ago, is every time I meet someone new at our church, they tell me that they\u2019ve been watching us online for several weeks, at minimum, and usually for several months.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s the new lobby.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It is exactly that; it is exactly that. For that reason, I\u2019m grateful. It\u2019s giving people access. What that tells me is, those people aren\u2019t watching because they\u2019re lazy and they don\u2019t want to drive to church. They\u2019re watching\u2014and I get this\u2014because they\u2019re not sure, thinking, \u201cAre these people normal? Is this going to be helpful to me? Does my family fit in? Do I see some kids in there? Do they talk about some kids\u2019 stuff for our kids and our family?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s a real gift that we have digital. There\u2019s a balance there for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about this: one of the [reasons] I checked you out online [was] to see what your church is like. I thought, \u201cI\u2019m going to tune into your church, and it\u2019s going to be this small acoustic guitar guy sitting on a stool, and everybody\u2019s in a circle on a carpet like a house.\u201d Yet there it was: you have lights and a very contemporary experience of church. I thought, \u201cWow! That\u2019s interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>How does that jive together?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I am not a baby-out-with-the-bath water sort of guy. I try to make it clear in the book that what I\u2019m not saying is, \u201cLights are bad.\u201d What I\u2019m not saying is, \u201cAmplified sound it bad.\u201d For us, what it\u2019s about is distraction.<\/p>\n<p>For example, if the lights are helpful in pointing our people to the right things: God and Jesus as the center of our worship gathering, [and] one another as the people of God, then use lights. If amplified sound is helpful to point people and to gather in the right way, then do that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jay, let\u2019s say you have a Gen Z kid who thinks, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go. Is it okay for me to just watch digitally, Mom and Dad?\u201d You guys think, \u201cI\u2019m just going to watch digitally because there\u2019s a pastor in another part of the country that I like, and I\u2019m going to watch that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As a parent, how would you respond to those questions?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s a great question, Ann. I think I would say, \u201cWatching digitally\u2014oh, you like that pastor? The way he teaches is helpful for you? By all means!\u201d Because the content matters; information matters; inspiration, which is possible digitally, [and] all of those things really matter. This conversation right now is a part of that. People aren\u2019t all in the room with us, but the masses will be listening to this digitally with headphones on or on their screen, whatever it might be. That really matters. I think I would encourage the good saying, \u201cI\u2019m so happy you\u2019re hungry to learn more and to hear more and to receive the Word of God and all those things.\u201d But I think I would also make really clear, \u201cThere\u2019s more for you. When you\u2019re ready, we\u2019d love for you to join us, or maybe there\u2019s another church community in town that resonates.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At a certain point, the information is a part of the journey, but it is not the end of the journey. The information needs to get us to a place where we feel real belonging amongst a community of people, the people of God.<\/p>\n<p>I think accentuating the good by saying, \u201cI\u2019m so happy you\u2019re hungry for this!\u201d But also, \u201cWhen you\u2019re ready, I\u2019ll do whatever I can to help you find your people.\u201d Hopefully it\u2019s at the same church, but if it\u2019s not, the priority is that they find their people, the people of God, that they can journey with. I think that\u2019s how I would respond.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about how, maybe\u2014the house church journey. The next generation, sometimes (I\u2019ve seen a little bit of this) reacting against mega[-church]. I\u2019m not just talking big, but produced and slick, and a guy standing on a stage and everybody listening.<\/p>\n<p>Frances Chan wrote Letters to the Church and talked about his journey. He was in your area of the world with a megachurch and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve created a place where people become consumers, and they come and they listen to me preach, and then they go do nothing rather than saying, \u2018Let\u2019s get on the streets,\u2019\u201d which is the journey he took.<\/p>\n<p>I know a lot of the next generation is seeing that and saying, \u201cThat\u2019s what the church should be.\u201d How do you respond to that?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I\u2019m grateful that there are lots of churches and lots of different types of churches. It\u2019s pretty tempting to pit one model against the other. The church where I serve is a large church; it\u2019s a large multi-site church. There are pros and cons to that. There are pros and cons to the house church. It may very well be that somebody meets Jesus for the first time at our church because nothing was asked of them, and it was just a place to heal.<\/p>\n<p>This is a real story. A few months ago, a young family in our neighborhood\u2014they\u2019re marginally Muslim; they grew up Muslim, but they\u2019re not practicing. They\u2019re certainly not Christian. We had the thing that mega-churches do and totally get criticized [for]. We did the big fall family festival thing. This family comes, and their daughter said, \u201cDad, Mom, this is right across the street from our house. This is awesome. I want to come back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The dad and mom asked one of our staff, \u201cIs there anything for kids on Sundays? We\u2019re not Christian.\u201d They responded, \u201cYes, we\u2019d love to have your family.\u201d That family comes back that Sunday. Their daughter loves our kids\u2019 ministry. Long story short, several months later they gave their lives to Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not telling that story to say, \u201cYou see? The mega-church is the answer to the world\u2019s problems,\u201d because if that couple journeys with us for several years, they very well may get to a place when their young daughter is 15 where they realize, you know we\u2019ve reached the limit of how much we can grow in terms of depth here. There\u2019s this house church down the road, and they\u2019re really digging in. That\u2019s going to be best for our daughter and for us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would say, \u201cIf that\u2019s true, then bless you as you go. I\u2019m so grateful our church got to play a part in that journey.\u201d On the flip side (and this is just my own two cents): one of the weaknesses of the house churches that I know is, they\u2019re so great at forming community and digging depth. I don\u2019t necessarily, in my part of the world, see a whole lot of, \u201cI was in darkness. Now, through this house church, I found the light of Jesus.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t see a lot of that there, but they\u2019re incredible for forging real, deep Christian community. Why pit us against one another? Why not dance together and say, \u201cOur goal is all the same. It\u2019s the Kingdom of God, and people far from God coming to know God, and then to be formed into Christlikeness; so, let\u2019s do this together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s good. Talk to the mom or dad that has a teenager that says, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go.\u201d How does it\u2014you\u2019re a pastor, I\u2019m a pastor; our kids were growing up in a pastor\u2019s home in a church\u2014what do you say to that parent who really wants to do the analog and thinks, \u201cI want to be in a room, and I want to sing with people, with flesh around me. There\u2019s an experience that\u2019s so dynamic about that, but my kids don\u2019t want to. What do I do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jay: First thought that comes to mind is, we can\u2019t want something for someone ever. It\u2019s just not possible. My wife is a high school teacher. She teaches special ed and loves her students and wants the best for them. I watch her pour herself out. This is something she\u2019s taught me: \u201cI want it so bad for them, but I cannot want it for them.\u201d That\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so hard, isn\u2019t it, as parents?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It\u2019s so hard, especially as parents, because you would give your life for them.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: But you can\u2019t want it for them. That\u2019s what\u2019s hard: the limits of our own abilities. The second thought I would say is, and maybe this is a bit more practical: you don\u2019t have to go to experience analog. We can be proactive and bring analog to our kids. I know that\u2019s a big ask.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: It looks like calling your youth pastor and saying, \u201cMy kid doesn\u2019t want to go. I\u2019m not going to force him. Is there anything happening that\u2019s a neutral space?\u201d or \u201cIs there any sort of way my kid\u2014my kid likes x, y, and z.\u201d Maybe it\u2019s a big church and the youth pastor isn\u2019t accessible. If it is a big church, and it\u2019s a healthy youth ministry, that means there are lots of leaders who are focused on your teenager\u2019s age group. Be proactive.<\/p>\n<p>I think we default to, \u201cIf I can just get my kid through that door, all the professional Christians in that room will solve the problem.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: That\u2019s not true. It is partnership. There\u2019s a way to partner. This is not to say, every church in America, you call them, and their youth pastor is going to show up at your door. No, they\u2019re very busy and what not.<\/p>\n<p>But healthy ministries, they will at least care, and they will work with you, saying, \u201cOkay, what can we do? What can we figure out? What is he into? Here\u2019s some of that that\u2019s coming up. Do you think he\u2019d come to this? Maybe I\u2019ll call him directly and do a personal invite.\u201d Or maybe it\u2019s, \u201cHe\u2019s not comfortable yet, and I\u2019ll take him to coffee or grab lunch and hear his story.\u201d That\u2019s very analog, and it\u2019s not in the building. We can bring analog to our kids. I think we\u2019ve got to be creative about those things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you say to the parents that are\u2014we\u2019ve talked about this quite a bit on FamilyLife Today, where our kids were in the youth group at whatever-sized church, thriving, [and] seemed like [they had] vibrant faith. They go away to college, or they leave the home after [they are] 17, 18, or 19 years old, and there\u2019s an epidemic of them walking away. They were once part of a vital church ministry.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re a pastor. You think about these things all the time. And you\u2019re a dad. How do you address that whole situation?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: There\u2019s been so much good work done along these lines. I think about Barna Group, [which] has a lot of data, a lot of research. [There are] lots of people doing lots of great work. I think to summarize much of the work, a couple of things come to mind. Maybe the most important thing\u2014are you guys familiar with \u201cMaslov\u2019s Hierarchy of Needs?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: You guys are obviously familiar with that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It was out way before you were born.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: Way before! Long before me. [Laughter] Toward the end of his life, Maslov added something at the peak of the pyramid called \u201ctranscendence,\u201d which is like a desire for God.<\/p>\n<p>For those listening who aren\u2019t familiar, the Maslov pyramid or the hierarchy of needs is just basically a way to think about how humans prioritize needs. At the very bottom of the pyramid would be food and water, meaning if we\u2019re having a conversation, and we\u2019re talking about the meaning of life but I\u2019m starving to death, I\u2019m not interested in seeing the meaning of life. I just need a bite to eat and some water to drink. But once we get those needs, the meaning of life matters.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s interesting to me is, belonging, the need to belong, comes before the need for identity and meaning in life. I think in the church, one of the things we have not done well, especially in youth groups, is, we\u2019ve accidentally reversed those two things on the pyramid. We think if we can teach kids to believe the right things, to know everything there is to know about the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus and all those things, which are of utmost importance, then that will lead them to a long-lasting faith.<\/p>\n<p>But what we\u2019re discovering is that the passionate kid in youth group that was all gung-ho about Jesus; they turn 18, they go away to college, they\u2019re in a brand new environment, and the entire infrastructure of their youth ministry\u2014friends and leaders who loved them and knew them; belonging\u2014that\u2019s been removed, and then faith just deconstructs. Because all the information about, \u201cwho you are in Christ\u201d and \u201cwhat\u2019s true about Jesus and your life,\u201d [and] those things come after you have the safety of, \u201cI\u2019m known, and I\u2019m loved.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the first thought that comes to mind. I think we have to do a better job of helping teenagers, as they gain independence in college, or they begin their working life or whatever. In the church, the local church and campus ministries, and on and on, we have to be really intentional. We\u2019ve got to create accessible, safe, large onramps for them to belong, for them to find a community that can know them, and they can know and be seen and known and loved.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that possible with digital church, or does that need to be quite often analog? I\u2019ve got to be around people, not just in a digital space, but in a real physical space.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I absolutely agree. I think digital can be a wonderful onramp to it. You said earlier digital is the new lobby. That\u2019s true for teenagers, too; so, especially for teenagers.<\/p>\n<p>Every time we have high school graduates in our church graduate, our youth ministry will find out where they\u2019re going to college. Then we\u2019ll put together a packet for them [of], \u201cHere are all the campus ministries and all of the churches that we vouch for in that area.\u201d Then we\u2019ll do our best to connect them directly to a leader. That\u2019s all digital.<\/p>\n<p>What these kids do is, they go online, and they check all these churches and ministries\u2019 Instagrams, saying, \u201cWhat are these folks like?\u201d That\u2019s the onramp, but it inevitably, hopefully, leads to a coffee conversation with a leader or one of the pastors and that becomes an analog experience.<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I think they have to play together: digital and analog.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is there something to a family sitting together in a worship space? I\u2019m talking analog. As a pastor, we had all the different age groups. The kids went here, middle school went here, high school went here. It was rare in our situation that they sat together\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014maybe at Christmas.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014mom, dad, single mom, single dad in a pew. We didn\u2019t have pews, but in seats. Is there something to that environment? We can do it in a home, but even in a church situation.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I think so. I think it really matters. Just my two cents: I think it matters more in the home. It matters more in the home, worshipping together in the home. My mom used to make me sit down with her and read the Bible and pray the Lord\u2019s Prayer with her every night growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I hated it. [Laughter] I hated it. I dreaded it. It felt like the biggest waste of time. But it formed something in me. Now, I make my kids do it. We read their little Kids\u2019 Bible. We don\u2019t pray the Lord\u2019s Prayer. In our home we actually do\u2014there\u2019s this ancient 16th Century practice called \u201cThe Daily Examen\u201d or \u201cThe Prayer of Examen.\u201d It\u2019s a Jesuit practice [from] Saint Ignatius of Loyola.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a way to reflect on your day. We do that with our kids, including our five-year-old. He\u2019s super fidgety, and he tries to rush through the prayer. But I\u2019m watching him, over time, get a sense of, \u201cOh, we\u2019re creating over time a certain type of space. This is a particular type of rhythm for our family.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, what they experience at church becomes simply an extension of what we do at home. Both are important.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Jay, I love that we\u2019re ending with that, because worshiping together at church is important. But you are right, it begins in the home. That piece is critical. It bonds you as a family spiritually. I think our kids are watching us, and they\u2019re thinking, \u201cThis really matters to mom and dad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You mentioned quite a bit in your book about transcendence; that we\u2019re made for that. You just explained you are bringing that into your home for an eight- and a five-year-old who may not understand exactly what\u2019s happening but they\u2019re\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013I like that you said you hated it growing up, too.<\/p>\n<p>Jay: I totally did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They may say that 20 years from now, but I bet they\u2019re going to keep it going. It\u2019s going to be the Kim heritage and legacy. It\u2019s going to be awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a great step of practicality for families, saying, \u201cWhat could that look like for our family to worship together or do something together?\u201d It\u2019s formative in what they\u2019re learning.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jay Kim on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Jay\u2019s written a book called Analog Church: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age. I think all of us can understand and relate to that: why we need real people, places, and things, because so much now is living in the digital world. This book helps us to explore that intersection between technology and the real life-ness of church.<\/p>\n<p>You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, where you can find the book in the \u201cShow Notes\u201d section at the bottom of the page, or you can give us a call at 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get a copy.<\/p>\n<p>Earlier this week, we got to hear from the amazing Elizabeth Woodson, who wrote a book called Embrace Your Life. The subtitle of that book is How to Find Joy When the Life You Have is Not the Life You Hoped For. I think anybody would hear that subtitle and think, \u201cYes, that\u2019s me.\u201d At least to a certain degree, that\u2019s you.<\/p>\n<p>She helped us find contentment in that gap between where we want our life to be and where our life actually is. This book addresses finding joy and hope in that gap during those present moments. This book by Elizabeth Woodson is going to be our gift to you when you give today. You can get your copy of her book now with any donation. Just go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the \u201cDonate Now\u201d button at the top of the page, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you would like to. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now, it\u2019s Friday, so I want to ask you to pray for all the Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage events that are happening this weekend in, specifically, Minneapolis, Montgomery, Omaha, and Rochester.<\/p>\n<p>With over 40 events across the country, they\u2019re still happening this spring, and there\u2019s still time to find a location near you. You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com to find a date and a location that works for you and your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Coming up next week, I had a conversation with Dave and Ann Wilson talking about what young people are dealing with today in terms of dating, relationships, sex, and communication. It is going to be an incredible conversation. I loved hanging out with the Wilsons and talking about all this. I, Shelby Abbott, will be on next week on FamilyLife Today. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280321","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280321"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280321"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280321"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280321"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280321"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280321"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280321"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}