{"id":280259,"date":"2024-05-29T09:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-05-29T13:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey\/"},"modified":"2024-11-19T04:15:08","modified_gmt":"2024-11-19T09:15:08","slug":"cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey\/","title":{"rendered":"Cancel Culture&#8211;and Constructive Conversations: Philip Yancey"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Ever felt the pull of cancel culture? It&#8217;s that moment when someone slips up, whether it&#8217;s a tweet from a decade back or a recent slip of the tongue, and suddenly the online world comes together to unfollow, call out, and attack them. Author Philip Yancey promotes the idea of grace in this chaotic environment and explains the effects of cancel culture.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ever felt cancel culture&#8217;s pull? Past tweets or mistakes leading to attacking others. Philip Yancey speaks on the effects of cancel culture.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/7f0cd13e-f91b-4887-bb65-b17700dd4122\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:54","filesize":"23.76M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2113],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9834],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280259","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-effects-of-cancel-culture","cwp_profile-philip-yancey","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280259\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280259\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"80wft3n1F5\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey\/\">Cancel Culture&#8211;and Constructive Conversations: Philip Yancey<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/cancel-culture-and-constructive-conversations-philip-yancey\/embed\/#?secret=80wft3n1F5\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Cancel Culture&#8211;and Constructive Conversations: Philip Yancey&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"80wft3n1F5\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["7f0cd13e-f91b-4887-bb65-b17700dd4122"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/7f0cd13e-f91b-4887-bb65-b17700dd4122\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:25:54"],"filesize":["23.76M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280865"],"show_notes":["\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Philip Yancey and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"http:\/\/philipyancey.com\/\">philipyancey.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>...And grab Philip Yancey\u2019s book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/whats-so-amazing-about-grace-revised-and-updated\">What's So Amazing About Grace<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today\u2019s episode? Think deeper about forgiveness by listening to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-minute\/take-off-put-on-forgiveness-2\/\">Take Off, Put On: Forgiveness<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/philip-yancey\/\">Philip, listen here<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>FamilyLife Today Links:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2024\/?cru_source=D0002405RB&cru_medium=RadioBanner&cru_premium=PRE21802&cru_campaign=May2024&utm_source=web&utm_medium=radiobanner&utm_campaign=may2024\">Double your gift this month<\/a> when you give to FamilyLife!<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-05-29.pdf"],"transcript_content":["\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nCancel Culture and Constructive Conversations\r\n\r\nGuest:Philip Yancey\r\n\r\nFrom the series:When You Can't Forgive Them (Day 3 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:May 29, 2024\r\n\r\nDave: Before we get started, we\u2019ve got a question for you: how can we pray for you?\r\n\r\nAnn: I love this question\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014I knew you would.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because we talk about a lot of serious things here on FamilyLife Today, and those details about our families, they often need our prayers. So, can we pray for you? We\u2019re serious. \r\n\r\nDave: Here\u2019s how you can let us know: Text \u201cFLT\u201d plus your prayer request to 80542 to let us know. It would be our privilege to pray for you. That\u2019s text \u201cFLT\u201d plus your prayer request to 80542. \r\n\r\nAnn: We want to pray for you. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus was so clear. He said, \u201cWhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014not the best of these, whatever you do to the least of these\u2014\"you do it to Me.\u201d [Matthew 25:40] When you do that, this whole ranking thing that we\u2019re so good at\u2014\u201cI\u2019m more holy than you,\u201d I\u2019m stricter,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more right,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more theological,\u201d or whatever\u2014that\u2019s so irrelevant. The question is, \u201cAre you more loving?\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn, in his Gospel, describing Jesus said, \u201cHe came full of grace and truth.\u201d [John 1:14] Truth, we\u2019ve done a good job; we\u2019ve worked at it. I just wish we had a little bit of that same energy and passion toward being more grace-filled [and] grace-dispensing than anybody else. \r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nDave: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: Recently, I got attacked online by some people that I\u2019ve been in relationship and ministry with over decades. \r\n\r\nAnn: It wasn\u2019t to you personally, but it was on Facebook. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, just bringing up some things I had taught and how harmful it was. \r\n\r\nAnn: I was mad about it. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, Ann got pretty mad about it. We\u2019re bringing this up, because we\u2019ve got Philip Yancey in here\u2014the grace man (a prolific author). We\u2019ve been talking with you the last couple of days about What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? \r\n\r\nHere I am, being canceled for something that for decades they appreciated, and now\u2014I think as I read this, I [thought], \u201cI\u2019ll bet there\u2019s some hurt there.\u201d So, I texted them\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014personally. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014personally, saying, \u201cGuys, I\u2019m not sure how I hurt you, but I have hurt you. I\u2019d love to talk. Let\u2019s have a conversation.\u201d No response, and more response online. It felt very ungraceful, and I was hurt. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: The beauty of it was, I thought, that Dave\u2019s response was so grace-filled. You\u2019re probably right: \u201cI\u2019m sure that I said some things back in the day. I wouldn\u2019t say it like that today.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: I was trying to say, \u201cIt\u2019s a different day and even the language is a little different.\u201d It was stuff [I] was teaching on manhood. I just tried to say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry, and I\u2019d love to have a conversation.\u201d I didn\u2019t want to say, \u201cI\u2019m right.\u201d I wanted to say, \u201cHow did I hurt you?\u201d \r\n\r\nThe reason I brought that up is that\u2019s sort of the culture we\u2019re living in. It\u2019s just one symptom, [but] that\u2019s happening every day times a million\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014to all of us. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014to a lot of us. Sometimes, we\u2019re the ones saying things about other people. Sometimes, we\u2019re the ones feeling attacked. Grace is so important in these days, but it\u2019s hard, because that\u2019s almost an everyday occurrence in your life, my life, everybody\u2019s lives. \r\n\r\nHow do we model What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? in the day and age we live in? \r\n\r\nAnn: Especially in a voting year. \r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019ve got to give us the answer. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. I\u2019m really glad you brought that up. I\u2019ve got an advantage as a journalist, because I have spent my life going around interviewing people who are not like me at all and, in some cases, I find offensive, you know?\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: But I need to get them to talk. If I went in with a chip on my shoulder and said, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said this about lying!\u201d I can\u2019t get anything to write about. I\u2019ve got to be their friend. I\u2019ve got to use that Columbo technique of drawing them out, you know? \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: What I\u2019ve learned to do is say, \u201cOkay, what I\u2019d like you to do is put yourself in the shoes of somebody who really opposes you (like on the abortion issue), and could you explain, if a person really believes this is a human being from conception on, doesn\u2019t that matter; doesn\u2019t that count?\u201d \r\n\r\nI said, \u201cLet\u2019s not have an argument here, because nobody can solve this for everybody, but I would just like to hear you explain a difficult issue like that to someone who strongly disagrees with you. Have you ever considered their point of view?\u201d I use a technique like that that kind of disarms [the] \u201cYou\u2019re wrong! I\u2019m right.\u201d But rather, \u201cI want to understand how you can come to that. This is hard for me\u2014for a lot of people\u2014to understand. How can you come to that conclusion that just seems so strange to me? Can you do that?\u201d \r\n\r\nThere are groups, as our culture grows more and more hostile and fractured\u2014there are groups. There\u2019s one called Better Angels; it\u2019s a quote from Abraham Lincoln: Better Angels, where they intentionally get together people who are on the opposite sides of big issues like that. They don\u2019t talk to each other. There\u2019s a moderator, and they always have to say everything through the moderator: \u201cMadame Moderator, my colleague here thinks this, whereas when I think about it, I see it a different way.\u201d \r\n\r\nIt's the way Congress ought to work, but it doesn\u2019t, right? [Laughter] They still do in Britian. In the House of Commons, they talk about \u201cMy right honorable opponent,\u201d and then they cut them to shreds. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nDave: They destroy them. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. We Christians should be leading the way in dealing with people that we can\u2019t figure out. \r\n\r\nAgain, we\u2019ve talked about how Jesus was among people who were so offensive to Him, and yet they were the ones who would flock to Him because they realized He would give them a fair shake, He\u2019d be compassionate, and He\u2019d listen to them. He\u2019d care for them. He was not going to change His own beliefs because of them, but He was going to reach out, in a welcoming, compassionate way. \r\n\r\nOur country is in bad\u2014dire\u2014need of Christians who can live that out. You don\u2019t live it out by being around people who agree with you. The only way you learn to do that is by being around people who disagree with you. I would really encourage Christians to, not just have book groups with people from your church, but book groups\u2014I\u2019m a member of a book group, and the only thing that we have in common is that we all have a degree from the University of Chicago. I\u2019m sure they\u2019ve Googled me and looked me up and said, \u201cHe\u2019s a Christian! Can you believe this?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cThis guy\u2019s a Christian!\u201d \r\n\r\nWe read these books together. The things they come up with are things I would never have thought of. \u201cI can\u2019t believe you got that from that book,\u201d but I\u2019m learning how they think, and I\u2019m learning how I can speak to them. So, I think the first step is just to be around people who aren\u2019t like you. \r\n\r\nAnn: Let me ask you this; this is super-practical. Let\u2019s say [in] your family, you are on different pages in all areas. Is it better not to talk about it? You know, they say, \u201cDon\u2019t bring up politics, don\u2019t bring up religion.\u201d Is it better not to talk about it, or if it comes up, could you say something\u2014 like you\u2019re giving us some instruction: \u201cWow! You are super passionate about this. There must be a reason why you\u2019re super passionate about it.\u201d \r\n\r\nDo we ask those questions, or do we just avoid it? Because we know, \u201cThere are big, big feelings and emotions with this, and I\u2019m going to totally disagree,\u201d in your family. \r\n\r\nPhilip: There are ways to express that. I like the idea of saying, \u201cI don\u2019t agree with the solution that you think is important or would work, but I really like this part of it. I like the fact that you care. That\u2019s really important.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd if you do that often enough, suddenly you realize: \u201cWe have more in common in some ways.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes. I think a lot of what you\u2019re even doing right now, Philip, is tone. I think that speaks volumes; how we have these conversations with people who have different viewpoints; just the way we talk about it. Are we yelling? Are we throwing up walls between us? Are we graceful in our tone? Your tone is very grace-giving. \r\n\r\nI\u2019m not saying everybody has the same wiring and modeling, but I think we have to pray and ask God to give us the right tone when we have hard conversations, because you can say all the right words with the wrong tone, and it just pushes people away. But if you come at them with grace, they feel loved, they feel seen, they feel heard, even though we totally disagree. It feels like they experience grace. \r\n\r\nPhilip: I think that\u2019s good. In a family situation, [it\u2019s a good] way. I think it\u2019s good to start by saying, \u201cOkay, if we\u2019re going to talk about an issue about which we probably disagree, I think it\u2019s important that there are no winners\u2014\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014you\u2019re going to preface it by saying this?\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think that\u2019s wise. \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u201cYou\u2019re not going to convince me, and I\u2019m not going to convince you, so I\u2019m not going to try to convince you, and I ask you to try not to convince me. I just want to understand what you think and why, how. \r\n\r\nAs you were talking, I thought, \u201cWhat was Jesus\u2019 technique?\u201d Well, Jesus\u2019 technique was to tell stories that would leave people scratching their heads saying, [Laughter] \u201cBoy, that sounded good but\u2014\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201c\u2014what does that mean?\u201d \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014\"how did that relate to my question?\u201d Then, maybe years later, maybe they\u2019d think, \u201cOh, I get it. I get it!\u201d He was so wise like that. I never went through and counted, but Brennan Manning, an author, said that there were 183 times when people asked Jesus a direct question. You know how many times he gave them a direct answer? \u201cThree,\u201d he said. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really?  \r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s what he said. He either told them a story, or sometimes contradicted them or whatever. We\u2019re not as far as Jesus, right? There\u2019s no way. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. \r\n\r\nPhilip: But when I look at how He diffused those kinds of situations, like the woman caught in the act of adultery [and] dragged into the temple. Here were these Pharisees ready to [Angry Voice], \u201cKill her! Kill her! Kill her!\u201d [It was] a very tense scene, and Jesus completely diffused that just by turning around and saying, \u201cOkay, she should be killed. Whoever has never sinned, cast the first stone.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Brilliant! \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u201cOh, never mind.\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking of the listener right now who is [saying], \u201cBut they are wrong!\u201d Maybe not your family, but \u201cThis issue\u2014we are in the right! They are in the wrong!\u201d What would you say to that person? \r\n\r\nPhilip: First, I would say, \u201cYou could well be right. Let\u2019s assume they are wrong. How do you treat people who are wrong?\u201d Then just go to the Gospels and see how Jesus treated people who were wrong, dead wrong. Jesus loves being around people who are so different than He is. \r\n\r\nOne time, I asked myself, \u201cJesus was accused of hanging out with the tax collectors and the sinners and not the Pharisees. Why did He hang out with tax collectors and sinners?\u201d \r\n\r\nI don\u2019t think it was because: \u201cOh, I think I\u2019m going to go evangelize today.\u201d [Laughter] I think it was because they knew how to enjoy life, and the Pharisees didn\u2019t. They were going around comparing and judging and pronouncing, and these other guys were just enjoying. I understand why Jesus hung around those people. He didn\u2019t leave them in their misery, but He started there because they were more fun to be around, frankly. \r\n\r\nAnn: He knew they were looking for something. \r\n\r\nPhilip: He could tell that thirst was there. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, but He loved them. He wasn\u2019t just trying to convert them, which is what I\u2019d be [doing]: \u201cLet\u2019s go down into the streets and save everybody!\u201d He wanted to hang out with them. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Right. \r\n\r\nDave: I remember a guy, early in my ministry years, 40 years ago, saying, \u201cI think you like hanging around non-Christians more than you do Christians.\u201d That was a judgment. [Laughter] I said, \u201cYes. Is that a bad thing?\u201d He said, \u201cWhy?\u201d \r\n\r\nI said, \u201cThey seem to be free. It feels like I can\u2019t enjoy life around\u2014I\u2019m always feeling judged like, \u2018What song did you listen to? What kind of music do you like?\u2019 It\u2019s like they look at me and take me as I am.\u201d At the same time, I loved them. I really did love them. \r\n\r\nAnn: You enjoyed them. \r\n\r\nDave: I wanted to be the light around them because I knew\u2014we said it yesterday\u2014they\u2019re thirsty; they\u2019re really thirsty. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m actually drinking from the Living Water, and I want to show them that. \r\n\r\nYou might recognize this quote; a famous author once said: \u201cThe strongest argument in favor of grace is the alternative, a world of un-grace.\u201d That was you. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nPhilip: We\u2019re getting there very quickly, aren\u2019t we? \r\n\r\nDave: But it really is, isn\u2019t it? The argument for grace is when you don\u2019t have it, when you don\u2019t live in it, it\u2019s horrible. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, yes. We\u2019re in a place of un-grace, not just in our country, but in our world, that is a scary thing. Christians should be\u2014we really should be\u2014the light on a hill. We should be the lubricant of society that says, \u201cLet\u2019s separate\u2014the issues that are important, but they\u2019re not more important than the person. The person is the most important thing.\u201d So, I don\u2019t care what you believe about this issue or that issue. My job is to love you, to try to understand you, to treat you with dignity and compassion. I\u2019ve got to do that.\r\n\r\nAnn: How do you think we change as a people, as a church? What does that look like?\r\n\r\nPhilip: I find the churches who do that best are churches who follow Jesus\u2019 lead by going to the least of these. If you have an active prison ministry, if you work among the homeless (unhoused), if you spend time in a hospice, this whole, \u201cI\u2019m better than you,\u201d doesn\u2019t apply anymore. When you hear their stories, you realize, \u201cYes, they\u2019ve made a lot of mistakes. Nobody has loved them. I\u2019m going to love them. That\u2019s my job. I\u2019ll go to people.\u201d \r\n\r\nJesus was so clear. He said, \u201cWhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014not the best of these; \u201cwhhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014\"you do it to Me.\u201d [Matthew 25:40, Paraphrased] \r\n\r\nMother Teresa is an example of someone who took that literally and said, \u201cI\u2019ll find the least of the least, and I\u2019ll treat them as if they were Jesus,\u201d and that\u2019s what she did. \r\n\r\nWhen you do that, this whole ranking thing that we\u2019re so good at\u2014\u201cI\u2019m more holy than you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more strict,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more right,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more theological,\u201d or whatever\u2014is just so irrelevant. The question is: \u201cAre you more loving?\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn, in his Gospel, describing Jesus said, \u201cHe came full of grace and truth.\u201d [John 1:14] Truth, we\u2019ve done a good job; we\u2019ve worked at it. I just wish we had a little bit of that same energy and passion toward being more grace-filled [and] grace-dispensing than anybody else. \r\n\r\nDave: I mean, is that an extension of sin\u2014[Laughter] of our nature-\u2013that we\u2019re always going to lean toward, \u201cI\u2019ve got the truth. You don\u2019t. I\u2019ve got to convince you; I\u2019ve got to judge you\u201d? Rather than\u2014our nature is not that; our nature is to judge. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: God\u2019s got to supernaturally change that to be the heart of Jesus. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, I think you\u2019re right. I think part of it is\u2014I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s Western culture of what, but\u2014we\u2019re so into the head rather than the heart. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus starts with the heart, goes right to the heart: \u201cHow do you feel?\u201d \u201cWhere are you really?\u201d \u201cWhere\u2019s your soul?\u201d not \u201cHave you ticked off all the right theological boxes?\u201d but \u201cHave you shown the fruit of the Spirit? Have you connected with the Spirit? Have you spent time with the Father in prayer?\u201d Those are the real questions, not: \u201cDid you believe this particular aspect of this particular part of theology?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s funny, I was recalling\u2014you know, we all have marking moments in our lives we will never forget\u2014I\u2019m friends with Miss Nonna who had a ministry in downtown Detroit. She would take her white van down. Everybody knew it in the streets. \r\n\r\nShe would take sack lunches and just put bags of food, makeup, toilet paper, feminine needs. When she\u2019d go down the street (and I\u2019ve gone down there with her many times), [she\u2019d] pull up to the curb. I\u2019d be in the passenger seat. She said, \u201cYour job is to say, \u2018How can I pray for you tonight\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nI was scared to death. [Laughter] People started coming, and they said, \u201cOh, Miss Donna, will you pray for me? My 11-year-old daughter was raped at school today.\u201d So, I prayed over this woman. So, I decided to take some of the Detroit Lion\u2019s wives downtown with me and with Miss Donna. \r\n\r\nWe went downtown. We were in this van, and they were so nervous. [Laughter] Miss Donna is\u2014we\u2019re in this van; we\u2019re driving\u2014she\u2019s driving, and she [said], \u201cWe\u2019re going to go to the biggest crack house in Detroit right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nI can hear this one girl in the back; she was 21, and she said, \u201cWhere did she say we are going?\u201d because at that time, Detroit had a bad reputation, too, and we were in the roughest part. We had all this makeup. A lot of the wives had donated a lot of these things. She said, \u201cThis is also known as \u2018The Block of Trans.\u2019 All these people are mostly trans, and this is where they live.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe got out of the car, and everyone was so nervous. All these women (men) were all flocking around the van because there was makeup. It was very awkward; it was very awkward. Then the owner of the crack house came out. We probably had 12 people, and Miss Donna said, \u201cLet\u2019s all gather in a circle. We want to pray for you.\u201d \r\n\r\nI said to this woman that I was discipling, \u201cLakesha, will you pray for us?\u201d She gave me this look like, \u201cWhat am I going to pray for?!\u201d \r\n\r\nWe were all holding hands, and she started this prayer that was so powerful: \u201cFather God, thank You for every person in this circle.\u201d It made me cry even when she was praying; but when she got back in the van, she said, \u201cAm I supposed to pray that God blesses their hands and their work? What was I supposed to pray?\u201d \r\n\r\nBut I felt in that moment: \u201cThis is where we\u2019re supposed to be; these are the people we\u2019re supposed to love.\u201d They probably each have such a story to tell. I know some of their stories, and they are horrific. \r\n\r\nI think about Jesus knowing all of our stories, and He offers grace every single time. I would hope that my kids and my grandkids get to experience that kind of thing. That\u2019s where Jesus walked. Whew! It is scary. It feels so awkward. I don\u2019t know what to do or say. I wish we, as a church, would expose ourselves to loving people in the way that Miss Donna has over the years. \r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s beautiful, really beautiful. \r\n\r\nAnn: You have so many of those stories in your book, too. I was just going through so many stories of you talking about grace. \r\n\r\nDave: Just picking up the book to read those stories\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014your chapter, \u201cGrace-healed Eyes,\u201d that\u2019s what I just heard: \u201cSee these people with grace-healed eyes.\u201d They\u2019re image bearers. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: They\u2019re beautiful.\r\n\r\nAnn: I think, Philip, I look at you [thinking], \u201cMan, this guy\u2019s got it! He\u2019s a grace giver.\u201d When I read at the beginning of your book how you were a racist, I [thought], \u201cWhat?!\u201d God had so transformed you.\r\n\r\nPhilip: You\u2019re right, and I don\u2019t take credit for that. I was loved by the woman who became my wife. That helped a lot of the healing. I\u2019ve been so blessed by God. It goes back to that time in that dorm room, in that prayer meeting, where I went in thinking I was so sophisticated and smart compared to these other kids, and I walked out crawling. I had a glimpse of who I am; but God doesn\u2019t leave you there. He gives you a glimpse of who you could be, as well. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Sometimes, it takes a long time. \r\n\r\nAnn: I thought it was great to be with Philip Yancey and to watch your face.\r\n\r\nDave: Why? \r\n\r\nAnn: Because he\u2019s just always been this hero to you, especially, because he writes about some of the things you have struggled with. \r\n\r\nDave: I think he\u2019s a deep well. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nDave: There is so much wisdom in that man\u2019s heart. \r\n\r\nAnn: I just cry the whole time he talks, because he\u2019s talking about the amazing grace of God. \r\n\r\nDave: I never thought I\u2019d sit across the table from Philip Yancey, reading Disappointment with God thousands of years ago, it feels like. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And now, talking to him today about What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? Both of those books and others have literally changed my life. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, I know they have. \r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m guessing that they\u2019ve changed your life, as well. Sitting with Philip Yancey again today reminded me of what our theme is for the year: Psalm 34. \u201cTaste and see that the Lord is good.\u201d [Verse 8] Even as you talk about disappointment with God, or you talk about how amazing His grace is, you\u2019re reminded that He is a good, good God. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And let me just say, \u201cthank you,\u201d to you, as well, that help us do what we do; to put FamilyLife Today on the radio and on podcasts. It\u2019s because you donate and give to FamilyLife. \r\n\r\nSome of you don\u2019t even know that that is a possibility. We can\u2019t do what we do without financial donations from partners like you. So, jump in and become a partner with us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can sign up there and help programs like this keep coming to you and to your friends. \r\n\r\nShelby: That\u2019s right. Dave\u2019s absolutely right, and the uniqueness of becoming a partner with us this month\u2014in fact, there are only a few days left in the month of May\u2014is the fact that every dollar given this month is going to be matched dollar-for-dollar up to $550,000. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nWe\u2019re a donor-supported ministry, and we rely on situations like this month in order to keep valuable programing coming to your ears all the time. We\u2019d love it if you\u2019d hop in. \r\n\r\nAgain, the website that Dave mentioned was FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can find a link to it in the show notes. Or you could just give us a call and become a partner at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nBy the way, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Philip Yancey on FamilyLife Today. Haven\u2019t the last three days been absolutely incredible? I know Dave and Ann were gushing there at the end, but it\u2019s so easy to do that with someone like Philip Yancey. He has been such an incredible gift of God\u2019s grace to us here at FamilyLife Today. He\u2019s actually written a book called What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? Maybe he wouldn\u2019t call himself the amazing part of grace, but he has been to us. \r\n\r\nIf you\u2019d like to pick up a copy of Philip\u2019s book, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com and request your copy there. Or you can give us a call at 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about stepfamilies; specifically, stepmoms navigating Mother\u2019s Day and the challenges that happen with that when it comes to expectations for you as a mom, the kids that are involved, the husbands that are involved; and finding worth in faith amidst the complexities of being a step-parent. That\u2019s all going to be happening tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us. \r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife                                 \r\n\r\n\n"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-280259.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-280259.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__video-wrap video{opacity: 1;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container .uagb-block-e11dbe9f{max-width: 100%;width: 100%;}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-is-root-container.alignfull.uagb-block-e11dbe9f > 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776708196;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Ever felt cancel culture's pull? Past tweets or mistakes leading to attacking others. Philip Yancey speaks on the effects of cancel culture.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"\n<ul>\n<li>Connect with Philip Yancey and catch more of their thoughts at <a href=\"http:\/\/philipyancey.com\/\">philipyancey.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>...And grab Philip Yancey\u2019s book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/whats-so-amazing-about-grace-revised-and-updated\">What's So Amazing About Grace<\/a> in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Intrigued by today\u2019s episode? Think deeper about forgiveness by listening to <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-minute\/take-off-put-on-forgiveness-2\/\">Take Off, Put On: Forgiveness<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Want to hear more episodes by <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/philip-yancey\/\">Philip, listen here<\/a>!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>FamilyLife Today Links:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/may-2024\/?cru_source=D0002405RB&cru_medium=RadioBanner&cru_premium=PRE21802&cru_campaign=May2024&utm_source=web&utm_medium=radiobanner&utm_campaign=may2024\">Double your gift this month<\/a> when you give to FamilyLife!<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-05-29.pdf","transcript_content":"\nFamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript\r\n\r\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.\r\n\r\nCancel Culture and Constructive Conversations\r\n\r\nGuest:Philip Yancey\r\n\r\nFrom the series:When You Can't Forgive Them (Day 3 of 3)\r\n\r\nAir date:May 29, 2024\r\n\r\nDave: Before we get started, we\u2019ve got a question for you: how can we pray for you?\r\n\r\nAnn: I love this question\u2014\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014I knew you would.\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014because we talk about a lot of serious things here on FamilyLife Today, and those details about our families, they often need our prayers. So, can we pray for you? We\u2019re serious. \r\n\r\nDave: Here\u2019s how you can let us know: Text \u201cFLT\u201d plus your prayer request to 80542 to let us know. It would be our privilege to pray for you. That\u2019s text \u201cFLT\u201d plus your prayer request to 80542. \r\n\r\nAnn: We want to pray for you. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus was so clear. He said, \u201cWhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014not the best of these, whatever you do to the least of these\u2014\"you do it to Me.\u201d [Matthew 25:40] When you do that, this whole ranking thing that we\u2019re so good at\u2014\u201cI\u2019m more holy than you,\u201d I\u2019m stricter,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more right,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more theological,\u201d or whatever\u2014that\u2019s so irrelevant. The question is, \u201cAre you more loving?\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn, in his Gospel, describing Jesus said, \u201cHe came full of grace and truth.\u201d [John 1:14] Truth, we\u2019ve done a good job; we\u2019ve worked at it. I just wish we had a little bit of that same energy and passion toward being more grace-filled [and] grace-dispensing than anybody else. \r\n\r\nShelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.\r\n\r\nDave: This is FamilyLife Today!\r\n\r\nDave: Recently, I got attacked online by some people that I\u2019ve been in relationship and ministry with over decades. \r\n\r\nAnn: It wasn\u2019t to you personally, but it was on Facebook. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, just bringing up some things I had taught and how harmful it was. \r\n\r\nAnn: I was mad about it. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, Ann got pretty mad about it. We\u2019re bringing this up, because we\u2019ve got Philip Yancey in here\u2014the grace man (a prolific author). We\u2019ve been talking with you the last couple of days about What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? \r\n\r\nHere I am, being canceled for something that for decades they appreciated, and now\u2014I think as I read this, I [thought], \u201cI\u2019ll bet there\u2019s some hurt there.\u201d So, I texted them\u2014 \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014personally. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014personally, saying, \u201cGuys, I\u2019m not sure how I hurt you, but I have hurt you. I\u2019d love to talk. Let\u2019s have a conversation.\u201d No response, and more response online. It felt very ungraceful, and I was hurt. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nAnn: The beauty of it was, I thought, that Dave\u2019s response was so grace-filled. You\u2019re probably right: \u201cI\u2019m sure that I said some things back in the day. I wouldn\u2019t say it like that today.\u201d \r\n\r\nDave: I was trying to say, \u201cIt\u2019s a different day and even the language is a little different.\u201d It was stuff [I] was teaching on manhood. I just tried to say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry, and I\u2019d love to have a conversation.\u201d I didn\u2019t want to say, \u201cI\u2019m right.\u201d I wanted to say, \u201cHow did I hurt you?\u201d \r\n\r\nThe reason I brought that up is that\u2019s sort of the culture we\u2019re living in. It\u2019s just one symptom, [but] that\u2019s happening every day times a million\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014to all of us. \r\n\r\nDave: \u2014to a lot of us. Sometimes, we\u2019re the ones saying things about other people. Sometimes, we\u2019re the ones feeling attacked. Grace is so important in these days, but it\u2019s hard, because that\u2019s almost an everyday occurrence in your life, my life, everybody\u2019s lives. \r\n\r\nHow do we model What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? in the day and age we live in? \r\n\r\nAnn: Especially in a voting year. \r\n\r\nDave: You\u2019ve got to give us the answer. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. I\u2019m really glad you brought that up. I\u2019ve got an advantage as a journalist, because I have spent my life going around interviewing people who are not like me at all and, in some cases, I find offensive, you know?\r\n\r\nDave: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: But I need to get them to talk. If I went in with a chip on my shoulder and said, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you said this about lying!\u201d I can\u2019t get anything to write about. I\u2019ve got to be their friend. I\u2019ve got to use that Columbo technique of drawing them out, you know? \r\n\r\nDave: Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: What I\u2019ve learned to do is say, \u201cOkay, what I\u2019d like you to do is put yourself in the shoes of somebody who really opposes you (like on the abortion issue), and could you explain, if a person really believes this is a human being from conception on, doesn\u2019t that matter; doesn\u2019t that count?\u201d \r\n\r\nI said, \u201cLet\u2019s not have an argument here, because nobody can solve this for everybody, but I would just like to hear you explain a difficult issue like that to someone who strongly disagrees with you. Have you ever considered their point of view?\u201d I use a technique like that that kind of disarms [the] \u201cYou\u2019re wrong! I\u2019m right.\u201d But rather, \u201cI want to understand how you can come to that. This is hard for me\u2014for a lot of people\u2014to understand. How can you come to that conclusion that just seems so strange to me? Can you do that?\u201d \r\n\r\nThere are groups, as our culture grows more and more hostile and fractured\u2014there are groups. There\u2019s one called Better Angels; it\u2019s a quote from Abraham Lincoln: Better Angels, where they intentionally get together people who are on the opposite sides of big issues like that. They don\u2019t talk to each other. There\u2019s a moderator, and they always have to say everything through the moderator: \u201cMadame Moderator, my colleague here thinks this, whereas when I think about it, I see it a different way.\u201d \r\n\r\nIt's the way Congress ought to work, but it doesn\u2019t, right? [Laughter] They still do in Britian. In the House of Commons, they talk about \u201cMy right honorable opponent,\u201d and then they cut them to shreds. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nDave: They destroy them. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. We Christians should be leading the way in dealing with people that we can\u2019t figure out. \r\n\r\nAgain, we\u2019ve talked about how Jesus was among people who were so offensive to Him, and yet they were the ones who would flock to Him because they realized He would give them a fair shake, He\u2019d be compassionate, and He\u2019d listen to them. He\u2019d care for them. He was not going to change His own beliefs because of them, but He was going to reach out, in a welcoming, compassionate way. \r\n\r\nOur country is in bad\u2014dire\u2014need of Christians who can live that out. You don\u2019t live it out by being around people who agree with you. The only way you learn to do that is by being around people who disagree with you. I would really encourage Christians to, not just have book groups with people from your church, but book groups\u2014I\u2019m a member of a book group, and the only thing that we have in common is that we all have a degree from the University of Chicago. I\u2019m sure they\u2019ve Googled me and looked me up and said, \u201cHe\u2019s a Christian! Can you believe this?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cThis guy\u2019s a Christian!\u201d \r\n\r\nWe read these books together. The things they come up with are things I would never have thought of. \u201cI can\u2019t believe you got that from that book,\u201d but I\u2019m learning how they think, and I\u2019m learning how I can speak to them. So, I think the first step is just to be around people who aren\u2019t like you. \r\n\r\nAnn: Let me ask you this; this is super-practical. Let\u2019s say [in] your family, you are on different pages in all areas. Is it better not to talk about it? You know, they say, \u201cDon\u2019t bring up politics, don\u2019t bring up religion.\u201d Is it better not to talk about it, or if it comes up, could you say something\u2014 like you\u2019re giving us some instruction: \u201cWow! You are super passionate about this. There must be a reason why you\u2019re super passionate about it.\u201d \r\n\r\nDo we ask those questions, or do we just avoid it? Because we know, \u201cThere are big, big feelings and emotions with this, and I\u2019m going to totally disagree,\u201d in your family. \r\n\r\nPhilip: There are ways to express that. I like the idea of saying, \u201cI don\u2019t agree with the solution that you think is important or would work, but I really like this part of it. I like the fact that you care. That\u2019s really important.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnd if you do that often enough, suddenly you realize: \u201cWe have more in common in some ways.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes. I think a lot of what you\u2019re even doing right now, Philip, is tone. I think that speaks volumes; how we have these conversations with people who have different viewpoints; just the way we talk about it. Are we yelling? Are we throwing up walls between us? Are we graceful in our tone? Your tone is very grace-giving. \r\n\r\nI\u2019m not saying everybody has the same wiring and modeling, but I think we have to pray and ask God to give us the right tone when we have hard conversations, because you can say all the right words with the wrong tone, and it just pushes people away. But if you come at them with grace, they feel loved, they feel seen, they feel heard, even though we totally disagree. It feels like they experience grace. \r\n\r\nPhilip: I think that\u2019s good. In a family situation, [it\u2019s a good] way. I think it\u2019s good to start by saying, \u201cOkay, if we\u2019re going to talk about an issue about which we probably disagree, I think it\u2019s important that there are no winners\u2014\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014you\u2019re going to preface it by saying this?\r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: I think that\u2019s wise. \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u201cYou\u2019re not going to convince me, and I\u2019m not going to convince you, so I\u2019m not going to try to convince you, and I ask you to try not to convince me. I just want to understand what you think and why, how. \r\n\r\nAs you were talking, I thought, \u201cWhat was Jesus\u2019 technique?\u201d Well, Jesus\u2019 technique was to tell stories that would leave people scratching their heads saying, [Laughter] \u201cBoy, that sounded good but\u2014\u201d\r\n\r\nAnn: \u201c\u2014what does that mean?\u201d \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u2014\"how did that relate to my question?\u201d Then, maybe years later, maybe they\u2019d think, \u201cOh, I get it. I get it!\u201d He was so wise like that. I never went through and counted, but Brennan Manning, an author, said that there were 183 times when people asked Jesus a direct question. You know how many times he gave them a direct answer? \u201cThree,\u201d he said. \r\n\r\nAnn: Really?  \r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s what he said. He either told them a story, or sometimes contradicted them or whatever. We\u2019re not as far as Jesus, right? There\u2019s no way. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes. \r\n\r\nPhilip: But when I look at how He diffused those kinds of situations, like the woman caught in the act of adultery [and] dragged into the temple. Here were these Pharisees ready to [Angry Voice], \u201cKill her! Kill her! Kill her!\u201d [It was] a very tense scene, and Jesus completely diffused that just by turning around and saying, \u201cOkay, she should be killed. Whoever has never sinned, cast the first stone.\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: Brilliant! \r\n\r\nPhilip: \u201cOh, never mind.\u201d [Laughter] \r\n\r\nAnn: I\u2019m thinking of the listener right now who is [saying], \u201cBut they are wrong!\u201d Maybe not your family, but \u201cThis issue\u2014we are in the right! They are in the wrong!\u201d What would you say to that person? \r\n\r\nPhilip: First, I would say, \u201cYou could well be right. Let\u2019s assume they are wrong. How do you treat people who are wrong?\u201d Then just go to the Gospels and see how Jesus treated people who were wrong, dead wrong. Jesus loves being around people who are so different than He is. \r\n\r\nOne time, I asked myself, \u201cJesus was accused of hanging out with the tax collectors and the sinners and not the Pharisees. Why did He hang out with tax collectors and sinners?\u201d \r\n\r\nI don\u2019t think it was because: \u201cOh, I think I\u2019m going to go evangelize today.\u201d [Laughter] I think it was because they knew how to enjoy life, and the Pharisees didn\u2019t. They were going around comparing and judging and pronouncing, and these other guys were just enjoying. I understand why Jesus hung around those people. He didn\u2019t leave them in their misery, but He started there because they were more fun to be around, frankly. \r\n\r\nAnn: He knew they were looking for something. \r\n\r\nPhilip: He could tell that thirst was there. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, but He loved them. He wasn\u2019t just trying to convert them, which is what I\u2019d be [doing]: \u201cLet\u2019s go down into the streets and save everybody!\u201d He wanted to hang out with them. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Right. \r\n\r\nDave: I remember a guy, early in my ministry years, 40 years ago, saying, \u201cI think you like hanging around non-Christians more than you do Christians.\u201d That was a judgment. [Laughter] I said, \u201cYes. Is that a bad thing?\u201d He said, \u201cWhy?\u201d \r\n\r\nI said, \u201cThey seem to be free. It feels like I can\u2019t enjoy life around\u2014I\u2019m always feeling judged like, \u2018What song did you listen to? What kind of music do you like?\u2019 It\u2019s like they look at me and take me as I am.\u201d At the same time, I loved them. I really did love them. \r\n\r\nAnn: You enjoyed them. \r\n\r\nDave: I wanted to be the light around them because I knew\u2014we said it yesterday\u2014they\u2019re thirsty; they\u2019re really thirsty. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m actually drinking from the Living Water, and I want to show them that. \r\n\r\nYou might recognize this quote; a famous author once said: \u201cThe strongest argument in favor of grace is the alternative, a world of un-grace.\u201d That was you. [Laughter] \r\n\r\nPhilip: We\u2019re getting there very quickly, aren\u2019t we? \r\n\r\nDave: But it really is, isn\u2019t it? The argument for grace is when you don\u2019t have it, when you don\u2019t live in it, it\u2019s horrible. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, yes. We\u2019re in a place of un-grace, not just in our country, but in our world, that is a scary thing. Christians should be\u2014we really should be\u2014the light on a hill. We should be the lubricant of society that says, \u201cLet\u2019s separate\u2014the issues that are important, but they\u2019re not more important than the person. The person is the most important thing.\u201d So, I don\u2019t care what you believe about this issue or that issue. My job is to love you, to try to understand you, to treat you with dignity and compassion. I\u2019ve got to do that.\r\n\r\nAnn: How do you think we change as a people, as a church? What does that look like?\r\n\r\nPhilip: I find the churches who do that best are churches who follow Jesus\u2019 lead by going to the least of these. If you have an active prison ministry, if you work among the homeless (unhoused), if you spend time in a hospice, this whole, \u201cI\u2019m better than you,\u201d doesn\u2019t apply anymore. When you hear their stories, you realize, \u201cYes, they\u2019ve made a lot of mistakes. Nobody has loved them. I\u2019m going to love them. That\u2019s my job. I\u2019ll go to people.\u201d \r\n\r\nJesus was so clear. He said, \u201cWhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014not the best of these; \u201cwhhatever you do to the least of these\u201d\u2014\"you do it to Me.\u201d [Matthew 25:40, Paraphrased] \r\n\r\nMother Teresa is an example of someone who took that literally and said, \u201cI\u2019ll find the least of the least, and I\u2019ll treat them as if they were Jesus,\u201d and that\u2019s what she did. \r\n\r\nWhen you do that, this whole ranking thing that we\u2019re so good at\u2014\u201cI\u2019m more holy than you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more strict,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more right,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m more theological,\u201d or whatever\u2014is just so irrelevant. The question is: \u201cAre you more loving?\u201d \r\n\r\nJohn, in his Gospel, describing Jesus said, \u201cHe came full of grace and truth.\u201d [John 1:14] Truth, we\u2019ve done a good job; we\u2019ve worked at it. I just wish we had a little bit of that same energy and passion toward being more grace-filled [and] grace-dispensing than anybody else. \r\n\r\nDave: I mean, is that an extension of sin\u2014[Laughter] of our nature-\u2013that we\u2019re always going to lean toward, \u201cI\u2019ve got the truth. You don\u2019t. I\u2019ve got to convince you; I\u2019ve got to judge you\u201d? Rather than\u2014our nature is not that; our nature is to judge. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: God\u2019s got to supernaturally change that to be the heart of Jesus. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes, I think you\u2019re right. I think part of it is\u2014I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s Western culture of what, but\u2014we\u2019re so into the head rather than the heart. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes.\r\n\r\nPhilip: Jesus starts with the heart, goes right to the heart: \u201cHow do you feel?\u201d \u201cWhere are you really?\u201d \u201cWhere\u2019s your soul?\u201d not \u201cHave you ticked off all the right theological boxes?\u201d but \u201cHave you shown the fruit of the Spirit? Have you connected with the Spirit? Have you spent time with the Father in prayer?\u201d Those are the real questions, not: \u201cDid you believe this particular aspect of this particular part of theology?\u201d \r\n\r\nAnn: It\u2019s funny, I was recalling\u2014you know, we all have marking moments in our lives we will never forget\u2014I\u2019m friends with Miss Nonna who had a ministry in downtown Detroit. She would take her white van down. Everybody knew it in the streets. \r\n\r\nShe would take sack lunches and just put bags of food, makeup, toilet paper, feminine needs. When she\u2019d go down the street (and I\u2019ve gone down there with her many times), [she\u2019d] pull up to the curb. I\u2019d be in the passenger seat. She said, \u201cYour job is to say, \u2018How can I pray for you tonight\u2019?\u201d\r\n\r\nI was scared to death. [Laughter] People started coming, and they said, \u201cOh, Miss Donna, will you pray for me? My 11-year-old daughter was raped at school today.\u201d So, I prayed over this woman. So, I decided to take some of the Detroit Lion\u2019s wives downtown with me and with Miss Donna. \r\n\r\nWe went downtown. We were in this van, and they were so nervous. [Laughter] Miss Donna is\u2014we\u2019re in this van; we\u2019re driving\u2014she\u2019s driving, and she [said], \u201cWe\u2019re going to go to the biggest crack house in Detroit right now.\u201d\r\n\r\nI can hear this one girl in the back; she was 21, and she said, \u201cWhere did she say we are going?\u201d because at that time, Detroit had a bad reputation, too, and we were in the roughest part. We had all this makeup. A lot of the wives had donated a lot of these things. She said, \u201cThis is also known as \u2018The Block of Trans.\u2019 All these people are mostly trans, and this is where they live.\u201d \r\n\r\nWe got out of the car, and everyone was so nervous. All these women (men) were all flocking around the van because there was makeup. It was very awkward; it was very awkward. Then the owner of the crack house came out. We probably had 12 people, and Miss Donna said, \u201cLet\u2019s all gather in a circle. We want to pray for you.\u201d \r\n\r\nI said to this woman that I was discipling, \u201cLakesha, will you pray for us?\u201d She gave me this look like, \u201cWhat am I going to pray for?!\u201d \r\n\r\nWe were all holding hands, and she started this prayer that was so powerful: \u201cFather God, thank You for every person in this circle.\u201d It made me cry even when she was praying; but when she got back in the van, she said, \u201cAm I supposed to pray that God blesses their hands and their work? What was I supposed to pray?\u201d \r\n\r\nBut I felt in that moment: \u201cThis is where we\u2019re supposed to be; these are the people we\u2019re supposed to love.\u201d They probably each have such a story to tell. I know some of their stories, and they are horrific. \r\n\r\nI think about Jesus knowing all of our stories, and He offers grace every single time. I would hope that my kids and my grandkids get to experience that kind of thing. That\u2019s where Jesus walked. Whew! It is scary. It feels so awkward. I don\u2019t know what to do or say. I wish we, as a church, would expose ourselves to loving people in the way that Miss Donna has over the years. \r\n\r\nPhilip: That\u2019s beautiful, really beautiful. \r\n\r\nAnn: You have so many of those stories in your book, too. I was just going through so many stories of you talking about grace. \r\n\r\nDave: Just picking up the book to read those stories\u2014\r\n\r\nAnn: \u2014yes!\r\n\r\nDave: \u2014your chapter, \u201cGrace-healed Eyes,\u201d that\u2019s what I just heard: \u201cSee these people with grace-healed eyes.\u201d They\u2019re image bearers. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Yes. \r\n\r\nDave: They\u2019re beautiful.\r\n\r\nAnn: I think, Philip, I look at you [thinking], \u201cMan, this guy\u2019s got it! He\u2019s a grace giver.\u201d When I read at the beginning of your book how you were a racist, I [thought], \u201cWhat?!\u201d God had so transformed you.\r\n\r\nPhilip: You\u2019re right, and I don\u2019t take credit for that. I was loved by the woman who became my wife. That helped a lot of the healing. I\u2019ve been so blessed by God. It goes back to that time in that dorm room, in that prayer meeting, where I went in thinking I was so sophisticated and smart compared to these other kids, and I walked out crawling. I had a glimpse of who I am; but God doesn\u2019t leave you there. He gives you a glimpse of who you could be, as well. \r\n\r\nDave: Yes. \r\n\r\nAnn: That\u2019s good. \r\n\r\nPhilip: Sometimes, it takes a long time. \r\n\r\nAnn: I thought it was great to be with Philip Yancey and to watch your face.\r\n\r\nDave: Why? \r\n\r\nAnn: Because he\u2019s just always been this hero to you, especially, because he writes about some of the things you have struggled with. \r\n\r\nDave: I think he\u2019s a deep well. \r\n\r\nAnn: Me, too. \r\n\r\nDave: There is so much wisdom in that man\u2019s heart. \r\n\r\nAnn: I just cry the whole time he talks, because he\u2019s talking about the amazing grace of God. \r\n\r\nDave: I never thought I\u2019d sit across the table from Philip Yancey, reading Disappointment with God thousands of years ago, it feels like. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And now, talking to him today about What\u2019s so Amazing About Grace? Both of those books and others have literally changed my life. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes, I know they have. \r\n\r\nDave: I\u2019m guessing that they\u2019ve changed your life, as well. Sitting with Philip Yancey again today reminded me of what our theme is for the year: Psalm 34. \u201cTaste and see that the Lord is good.\u201d [Verse 8] Even as you talk about disappointment with God, or you talk about how amazing His grace is, you\u2019re reminded that He is a good, good God. \r\n\r\nAnn: Yes.\r\n\r\nDave: And let me just say, \u201cthank you,\u201d to you, as well, that help us do what we do; to put FamilyLife Today on the radio and on podcasts. It\u2019s because you donate and give to FamilyLife. \r\n\r\nSome of you don\u2019t even know that that is a possibility. We can\u2019t do what we do without financial donations from partners like you. So, jump in and become a partner with us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can sign up there and help programs like this keep coming to you and to your friends. \r\n\r\nShelby: That\u2019s right. Dave\u2019s absolutely right, and the uniqueness of becoming a partner with us this month\u2014in fact, there are only a few days left in the month of May\u2014is the fact that every dollar given this month is going to be matched dollar-for-dollar up to $550,000. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nWe\u2019re a donor-supported ministry, and we rely on situations like this month in order to keep valuable programing coming to your ears all the time. We\u2019d love it if you\u2019d hop in. \r\n\r\nAgain, the website that Dave mentioned was FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can find a link to it in the show notes. Or you could just give us a call and become a partner at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nBy the way, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Philip Yancey on FamilyLife Today. Haven\u2019t the last three days been absolutely incredible? I know Dave and Ann were gushing there at the end, but it\u2019s so easy to do that with someone like Philip Yancey. He has been such an incredible gift of God\u2019s grace to us here at FamilyLife Today. He\u2019s actually written a book called What\u2019s So Amazing About Grace? Maybe he wouldn\u2019t call himself the amazing part of grace, but he has been to us. \r\n\r\nIf you\u2019d like to pick up a copy of Philip\u2019s book, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com and request your copy there. Or you can give us a call at 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \r\n\r\nNow, coming up tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about stepfamilies; specifically, stepmoms navigating Mother\u2019s Day and the challenges that happen with that when it comes to expectations for you as a mom, the kids that are involved, the husbands that are involved; and finding worth in faith amidst the complexities of being a step-parent. That\u2019s all going to be happening tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us. \r\n\r\nOn behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \r\n\r\nFamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry. \r\n\r\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.\r\n\r\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  \r\n\r\nCopyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\r\n\r\nwww.FamilyLife                                 \r\n\r\n\n","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280259","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280259"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280259"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280259"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280259"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280259"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280259"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280259"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}