Your Marriage Needs Friends: Luke & Kristina Middendorf

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FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

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Your Marriage Needs Friends

Guests:Luke and Kristina Middendorf

From the series:More than the Two of You (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:November 6, 2026

Kristina (00:04):

We have a friend; he would often call relationships his tributaries. He said, “They’re tributaries of grace in my life.” And to me, I always thought of a stream is little until it picks up more tributaries that are coming into it. And the more that come in, the stronger the flow gets. Starts out small and the more input and avenues of grace you have coming in.

Dave (00:37):

Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann (00:43):

And I’m Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Well, we have Luke and Kristina Middendorf back with us today, the President of FamilyLife. And this is going to be a rich conversation. I just feel like this is a miss in the church so often because we, even as believers in the world, there’s a lot of loneliness, anxiety, frustration, and a feeling of I’m all alone.

Dave (01:19):

And God never calls us to do life alone, especially marriage and family. And so today is a rich day to talk about, okay, if I’m supposed to do life and community, how? How do I do it? How do I make this happen? Because when that happens in your marriage and your family, you are never the same. You’re becoming what God wants you to be. So let’s jump in with Luke and Kristina.

I remember when I was a young pastor, we just started a church and my kids were young, less than 10 years old, three boys. And I remember thinking about what is going to happen when they’re teenagers? And hearing horror stories, that’s going to be such a hard time. And so I intentionally found men in my church who had teenage boys that were walking with Jesus and I’d say, “Hey, can I buy you lunch?” So smart. And they didn’t know why. I’m like, “I just want to ask, what’d you do? What are you doing?” And they became a mentor to the pastor because it’s like, “I need to learn, you’re ahead of me by 10 years.” And again, if people are like, “Who are Paul, Timothy and Barnabas?” I mean, you go to the New Testament, you see the Apostle Paul was planting these churches.

(02:31):

He’s sort of ahead of you on the track. “I just came to Christ. I need somebody ahead of me that can teach me.” You need a Paul. That’s what it means. Somebody more mature, maybe older, maybe ahead of you, whatever way it looks, that’s a Paul. A Timothy is like, “Who’s behind me that I’m going to pour in what I’m learning? I’m going to give to somebody else.” And then a Barnabas is somebody right about the same place and we’re walking beside each other. We all need those three things in our life.

Luke (02:58):

I think the word imitate is really important that Paul, he writes about that in the epistles. He says, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ.” And you step back and you think, why didn’t he just say imitate Christ? Christ is the example. Christ is the model, but there was something unique that the people he led needed to see how does Paul navigate persecution and challenges, success and failure? So he writes, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ.” So especially for the mentor category or finding a Paul in our life, that’s a good place to start is notice the people around you who are a stage or two or more older than you and say, “Whose life do I want to imitate? Who’s intriguing to me? Who do I want to become like? Who if I had some more time in their life, in their home, would I want to emulate the way they do things?”

Dave (03:52):

And even whose marriage? I’d like a marriage like that. And again, it’s not perfect, but you see it and you’re like, “Okay, could I see the color of your dishes?” Whatever.

Kristina (04:03):

Yeah. I think you’re looking for character and integrity, right? I’m looking for women who every time she comes up, people speak well of her or she is gracious. I don’t hear her speaking ill of other people. I remember a season where our kids were still little. There was this couple we knew who had four adult children, and those adult children and their spouses loved to be together with their mom and dad. And I thought that’s the dream. I’m sure it’s not perfect, but what are they doing? How did they parent their kids, live their life in their home when their kids were our age that their kids now want to come back as adults and be together as a family? Because you don’t always see that. So I knew it was not ordinary and we wanted that. We asked them, what did you do when your kids were 10 and 13 to foster relationships so that now as adults you have what you have?

Ann (05:02):

And I think too, it doesn’t have to be one person who’s the super Christian in every area because there was a mom that I saw that like, oh yeah, she’s praying for kids. She’s doing some things that are really cool. I want to spend time with her. Maybe it was a single woman who’s a little older than I am. And man, this woman knew the Word. She was on fire for Jesus and I’m like, “I need to be around her to get that to rub off on me.” So there are a lot of different. And some people didn’t live close to me, Barbara Rainey. Don’t feel like it has to be this one superpower person. It could be a lot of different people.

Kristina:

Good point.

Dave (05:39):

Way back, I don’t know if you know the name Gordon McDonald. He wrote a book called Ordering Your Private World and then he wrote a second book that didn’t do as well, and it was called Restoring Your Spiritual Passion. The whole book was like; how do you keep the fire of your passion burning for Jesus? He says, “There’s five categories of people we hang out with and here’s how they affect your spiritual passion.” He said, “The first one is a VRP.” And I just remember the letters and that’s a mentor, very resourceful person. He goes, “You spend time with them, you get in your car to drive home. What do you feel? You feel your passion was ignited.” I spent an hour with them. I can’t explain it. Wow. VIP, very important person, is a peer. It’s a Barnabas. It’s somebody walking the same thing. He goes, “You get in the car after them and you’re like, Wow, they shared my passion. And again, it was a plus. He said VTP, very trainable person, is somebody you pour into. It’s your Timothy. He goes, you get in the car and your passion is ignited. Isn’t that true? Yes. You go to give away something to somebody, you think you’re going to be drained and you’re like, I am more filled up than ever.

(06:41):

You know what the other two categories were? I’ll never forget this.

Ann (06:43):

This was mind-blowing to us.

Dave (06:44):

He’s like mentor, peer, disciple. And he said, these two are the ones we spend the most time with and watch what they do to your passion. He called them VNP and VDP, very nice people, very drainable people.

Ann (07:01):

Very draining.

Dave (07:02):

And he goes, nice people are great. You love being around there so nice. But when you get in the car, you’re like, I was sort of drained.

Ann (07:08):

We didn’t talk about anything.

Dave (07:10):

Yeah, we just talked about sports. And again, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s like my passion just sort of stayed. And then he said very drainable people. You are called by God to pour into people that are going to drain you. It isn’t like you don’t help homeless people or people that are very needy. You are called to do it. But if you look at your time and you’re like, wow, most of my time is there, your passion gets sapped out of you. Now, of course we’re called to ministry. We got to do that. But he says you need to evaluate, are you spending any time with a VRP, a VIP, a VTP, which is all what we’re talking about today. And I remember when I read that book, I’m like, oh my goodness, I got to be strategic. Again, I want to pour into nice people.

(07:47):

I want to pour into draining people, but if that’s all I’m doing, no wonder I’m sapped. It’s like I’ve got to have these people in my life. And by the way, I think it’s really easy as a pastor, what I see when I look out and I preach that, I think what I see is people going, well, there’s nobody reaching out to me. You’ve become a victim rather than guess what? It’s on you. Go make this happen.

(08:10):

If somebody came up to me and say, I really would appreciate if I could spend an hour with you and your marriage, am I going to say no? Sometimes I have to, but obviously I’m going to be like, I think I’m supposed to. You reached out; I’m going to pour into you.

Luke (08:24):

I remember the couple that really held up the mirror to us years ago. One of the phrases they shared with us often is basically we need to take responsibility as believers to make sure we have a full gospel tank. Do you remember that?

Ann (08:38):

Oh, that’s good.

Luke (08:39):

So I’m not putting all the weight on my spouse to make sure I’m reminded of truths and reminding me to get in the word. And of course she’s praying for me, but I need to every day take responsibility for the things I can control to be in the word, to be prayerful, to initiate with people. And then when my gospel tank is full, when I’m rooted in who God’s called me to be, when those draining people encounter my path, I have something to offer.

Ann (09:07):

That’s good.

Luke (09:07):

And I also know I can walk away and invest in the next person. It’s not all dependent on the ministry I’m doing or just my needs, but my tank is full.

Ann (09:19):

That’s good. Yeah.

Dave (09:20):

All right. Let me ask you this. How’s that going now? You are the leader of an international ministry with incredible responsibilities.

Ann (09:31):

You’ve just moved to a new place.

Dave (09:31):

You stepped in over a year ago. You moved to Florida from Minnesota. Is it going well? I mean, are you able to keep that gospel tank full?

Ann (09:40):

How are you finding your people?

Dave (09:42):

Is it a struggle?

Luke (09:42):

It’s going great. It’s easy. Never.

Dave (09:45):

Piece of cake. Your wife gave us a little look over there, Luke. I don’t know if you saw Kristina’s look.

Luke (09:50):

I think maybe you were saying, Ann, earlier that these relationships don’t have to be forever and we don’t need to put all the pressure just on one super Christian. So when you live in one location for a long period of time, some of the relationships do stay the same and you’re able to go deeper with your friends or mentors. And then if you’re in a season where God uproots you and moves you to a new place, you’re confronted with the reality of, I still have these needs in all three categories, but where am I going to go?

Dave (10:21):

Yeah.

Luke (10:22):

And again, as we’ve shared before, that was one of our biggest steps of faith in the process more than the job, more than house and all of those things as people.

Ann (10:30):

Losing your people.

Luke (10:31):

We knew that God put some incredible people in our lives and our question to ourselves to check our faith was, do we trust God to do it again? So I’m guessing there’s some listeners today that are in a season of change or they may be preparing, wondering about a change in their lives and will God do it again? And there’s an opportunity to step out in faith and trust him. And it’s helpful to just look back and say, has he provided before? Yes, he has. And he’ll do it again.

Kristina (11:01):

So I had a pretty epic surprise birthday party this weekend and this, I’m going to tell you how we’re doing through this story. I am notoriously so hard to surprise. I love to figure it out. I never am surprised ever. But Luke pulled off this three layer surprise on Saturday. I don’t know how he did it. The day started with him opening the front door and in walked two of my dear, dear friends from our past season with Athletes in Action who live across the country who had shown up for my birthday weekend. They’ve known me, they’ve walked with me through life.

Dave:

Just showed up at the front door.

Kristina:

Showed up at my front door from Chicago—

Luke (11:44):

I said, “A package is here.”

Kristina (11:45):

—and D.C.

Luke (11:45):

I was tracking with them when they were coming in and there they were.

Kristina (11:48):

There they were.

Ann (11:49):

And you were totally surprised.

Kristina (11:50):

Totally surprised. I almost fell out of the chair. I kept putting the pillow in front of my face. I could not believe they were here. But it represented that people who know me, who have walked through seasons of life with me. My mom is with us right now. My parents are here. And so she said, “Let’s take your friends down to Winter Park and kind of show them the cute part of town.” And I’m like, “Great, this will be so fun.” So we’re driving, we go make a couple stops and Luke had told my mom, “Make sure she stops in this flower shop that’s owned by a friend of mine from school. I have something for her to pick up.” So I’m thinking flowers. I love flowers. It’s like my favorite thing. So I opened the door to the flower shop to go get my bouquet, I assume, and behind the counter pop up, at the same time, six heads of the sweetest friends God has given me here in Orlando in the last year.

(12:47):

And so then the tears are coming, right?

Ann (12:49):

Luke!

Kristina (12:50):

I have these—

Luke (12:50):

Don’t give me too much credit. I had a lot of help.

Kristina (12:53):

I have these two friends who have known me and then these six friends who have become so dear, but we’ve only had a year of life together. We spend the whole afternoon, we have the sweetest time and I’m like, “This is epic.” I’m so tired driving home. I’m saying out loud to my friends, “I can’t wait to put on my pajamas and just soak in today.” And what the goodness.

Luke (13:18):

Pause for a second. I’m at home for about what’s going to happen next. And I’m telling people, I bet she’s thinking, “I can’t wait to come home, put on my pajamas, hang out with my two close friends who flew in.”

Kristina (13:30):

Yes, because my other six friends left. We parted ways. I’m just with the two. I walk in my front door and I think there are probably 100 people in our house. So people are packed like sardines in my house and they scream surprise. And I immediately walk out the door. It was so overwhelming. I honestly felt like I don’t know that I can go in there. This is too much. I don’t know what I have left in the tank. And I took a step out onto the porch, took a moment and I heard the Lord say, “All these people showed up for you. You can go in there and show up.” And as I reflected later that night and the next day, I saw this, in that packed house, there were people who know me just a little bit, but they showed up for me because in some way God has woven our stories, our hearts together in just a year.

(14:26):

And it was this moment of look at what God has done. We’ve not been here 20 years, and we have all these deep relationships, but we have 75, 100 friends who showed up on a Saturday night to wish me happy birthday. And I couldn’t believe it. It was this intersection of school and church and FamilyLife. It was so beautiful. So we’re getting there is what I’m saying. Have I walked through seasons of life with people here yet? No. But I think because we’ve come in needy, we know we need relationship, we know what we’re looking for because we’ve had it before, I think it has accelerated that process. We’re not afraid to ask and we’ve picked up some tricks along the way. As we’ve sought out mentors even in this season, we have learned one, to ask, to be intentional, but to have a timeline on it to not just say, “Ann, could we meet weekly forever?” The implication is maybe forever.

(15:37):

It’s a lot for you to say yes to. But if I came and said, “Hey, I love the way you parent your kids and your grandkids. I want to learn from you. Would you be willing to meet with me for six months every other week? Could I take you out to lunch?” That’s an easier yes for you to consider than this indefinite ask or opportunity.

Ann (15:59):

That is beautiful. Well done, Luke.

Dave (16:02):

Way to go, Luke.

Kristina (16:02):

I wasn’t planning to share that story, but when you asked, I was like, “This feels like a great illustration.”

Dave (16:07):

I’m over here tearing up because that’s the beauty of community. We’re made for that.

Ann (16:12):

And let me just add, my best friend mentor was my sister. She led me to Jesus, six years older. I talked to her every day, and she passed away at 45, and I was 39 and it was such a loss. She was gone. And here’s what I want to say. Some of you have lost, you’ve moved or you lost someone that has poured into you. That matters to God and He sees you. He loves you. He brought a friend into my life that became my sister. She’s still my best friend. And it’s made me see over the years that God sees me, you’re not alone. If you’re praying, He’s heard every single one of those prayers that you’re lonely or you’re lost or you don’t know what to do. And pray and then open your eyes because there’s someone around you. As you said, Luke, you probably know them.

(17:09):

They could be in your church, just somewhere, but pray that God opens your eyes and then be bold. Ask. And I like the specificness too, like, “Hey, I’m just struggling in whatever, and could you meet with me?” Maybe it’s just six weeks at first, and who knows what God will do? And that, I listen to you guys, it’s changed your marriage, your parenting, your life spiritually, you’re better because you’ve lived out what Jesus said. Go make disciples of all nations.

Luke (17:40):

And I think for adults after the season of college, the friendship or Barnabas category can be the most difficult. It’s sometimes a little easier to say, “Hey, I need a mentor. I need someone to coach me,” or “Hey, I could help someone else.” But to say, “Actually, I need just a friend. I need someone when it’s a really hard day and I’m driving home and I don’t want to dump everything on my spouse. Who would pick up the phone when I call and say, ‘Hey, do you got seven minutes?’”

(18:09):

They not only pick up, but they say, “Yes, share with me what’s going on.” And sometimes they’ll put up that mirror on your life as well to say, “Hey, I have a word to share with you before you walk in the door with your spouse.” So it’s those same principles. Be prayerful, look at the people who are already around you. And then sometimes it feels really awkward, but just initiate and say, “Hey, I just moved here. I’m in need of some closer, deeper friendships. Do you want to go play pickleball once a month? And then we could grab a bite to eat afterwards.”

(18:42):

We talk a lot about just drop a line in the water and see who bites. So not everyone will say yes to those initiations, but maybe after the fifth or the 10th person say, “I’ve been praying for that too. Let’s go play pickleball or let’s grab coffee or let’s play golf,” whatever, and then cultivate the relationship. And it’s okay at some point to also evaluate, is this still working? What category does this person fit into and what are my other needs as well? Doesn’t have to be forever. And your season of life will change too and relationships change with that.

Dave (19:20):

What a great word. I mean, it’s so practical. It’s interesting when we moved to Detroit with Athletes in Action at the time to work as a chaplain of the Lions, and then one of the first things I knew when I got to Detroit, I got to find my guys. I’m sitting here now, 30 some years later than that. I have five guys that I found that year. And the way we started it, it’s just what you said, Luke, let’s have dinner once a month. And I remember everybody saying, oh, you got to do weekly. I’m like, it doesn’t work for our lives.

Ann (19:49):

All our kids were little. We’re exhausted.

Dave (19:50):

Let’s just do dinner once a month and then we’ll go in the family room and we’ll talk. We were there till midnight once a month.

Ann:

Six to midnight sometimes.

Dave:

And those guys, I could tear up right now thinking how important they are in my life. They have been there every second, and I’ve been there for them. And one of them just battled through cancer. It’s just—that’s community and you’ve built it. It’s hard work, but it’s worth it.

Luke (20:12):

It’s an investment that pays off in the long run that when you move and you transition and the relationship changes, there’s going to be a couple people, if you’ve invested well, that fly down and come see you. There’s a couple people that flew down to see me when I took this new role. A couple people that flew for her birthday and the investment was worth it. And those times when you’re tired, you don’t want to go do the thing and say it’s worth it. It’s worth it for me. And I also have something to give to this person, and God wants to use me in their life too.

Kristina (20:45):

Yeah. We have a friend; he would often call relationships his tributaries. He said, “They’re tributaries of grace in my life.” And I’m not a geologist, but that picture to me, I always thought of a stream is little until it picks up more tributaries that are coming into it. And the more that come in, the stronger the flow gets. Starts out small and the more input and avenues of grace you have coming in. And so that came back to me this weekend with all of those people. And I was like, look at all these tributaries of people who show up and care when you need them. And that is what’s strengthening us and upholding us in this season of things being new.

Ann (21:29):

Let’s give a couple action points. If you’re listening, you’re like, “Okay, what’s my first thing?” I would say pray. Start praying because as we said earlier, this matters to God too.

Dave (21:38):

Yes, ask God.

Luke (21:39):

Yep. I think step two is talk with your spouse if you’re married or a good friend and say, “Hey, help me think about in this season of life, what are the top needs that I have? What are areas that I need to grow in? What’s something that I haven’t learned about yet?” And just decide, “Hey, in this next season, I really need some input on parenting or finances or learning how to disciple someone, reading the Word, could be anything.” And just make a decision and then initiate with someone. Take the initiative, make that phone call, walk up to someone at church. It can feel so awkward. We’ve done it many times. But when you said this, when you’re on the receiving end and someone approaches you and says, “Hey, do you want to go out to coffee as a friend?” Or “I’m looking for a mentor, and I see something in you that I want to learn about,” that makes you feel like a million bucks.

(22:34):

But it starts with you initiating. So push through the awkwardness and share with the person, “This is what I need to grow in this next season. Can you help me?”

Ann (22:44):

For the person that says, “I can just watch something on YouTube,” what would you guys say to that? Because you can. There’s some good stuff on YouTube, but.

Luke (22:51):

I’ll come back to the word I used earlier, imitate. You can’t imitate someone’s life on TV or YouTube or a podcast. You can learn a million things and there’s wonderful channels to learn, listen to sermons, all of those things, but will you know the color of their dishes? You got to get in someone’s home, in someone’s life and allow them access to see. And as we talked about holding up the mirror but doing it with your arm around the person and say, “Hey, there’s something that you need to hear, but I’m going to walk with you as you grow in that area.”

Dave (23:25):

Yeah, I need flesh on flesh. Yep. No question.

Ann (23:28):

Guys.

Dave (23:28):

Guys, thank you. Wow.

Ann (23:29):

This has been so rich.

Kristina:

So good. Thank you, guys.

Dave (23:31):

Yeah. I want to say to our listeners, watchers, send us emails when you start taking some steps. I want to hear the stories like I never asked anybody till I heard this broadcast and I realized I’ve been sitting waiting for somebody to approach me. I need to take the initiative. I’d love to hear—

Ann (23:49):

Me too.

Dave (23:49):

—from you what happened.

Luke (23:51):

Tell us the awkward stories too of when you went for it and it just didn’t go well. Right. And be willing to hear no. We heard years ago from a business leader, when someone tells you no and you step out of faith, they say no. What that really means is next opportunity. Yeah. So that might be someone that’s on your mind, but the Lord may have the next person that’s really right for you.

Ann (24:17):

Before we’re done today, I just want to remind our listeners that families today need biblical truth more than ever. And as a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.

Dave (24:33):

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Ann (24:45):

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