Stop Chasing Grades and Likes: Raising Kids Who Feel Loved – Dr. Kathy Koch

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Stop Chasing Grades and Likes: Raising Kids Who Feel Loved

Guest:Kathy Koch

From the series:Start with the Heart (Day 2 of 3)

Air date:March 5, 2026

Kathy (00:04):

If you tell your daughter she’s pretty, tell her something else too, because otherwise she’ll think that your only belief in her is her cuteness. And now when she skins her nose she won’t want to see you. So every time you affirm, “Man, you’re looking good today,” and “I watched you be patient with grandma. You’re a good granddaughter.” Because if you don’t do that, her security will be relationally to you, her beauty.

Dave (00:33):

Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann (00:39):

And I’m Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave (00:52):

Okay, we got Kathy Koch back in the studio with us. She is the wizard of parenting, and she’s never been a parent. Isn’t that crazy?

Ann (01:00):

I wish I had read and known her back when we were raising our kids.

Dave (01:05):

Yeah, this is great, great stuff.

Ann (01:06):

It’s a wealth of information. Get ready.

Dave:

Let’s go.

Ann:

You might want to have a notepad out or just log it into your phone as we go.

Dave (01:18):

Well, I mean, you hear parents, especially Christian parents say, “Have you had the talk yet?” And the answer is, it’s not a talk. It’s a whole bunch of talks.

Kathy (01:25):

Oh, that’s so good.

Dave (01:26):

I mean, it’s not one time where I have this talk. No, it’s like we’re talking about this their whole life.

Kathy (01:29):

Oh, totally. Yeah. We start with gender and all of that early on. And I wonder, Ann and Dave, if it’s even more important now because their relationship skills are terrible. Could I just put that out there?—in general, right? Okay, you’re laughing, but it’s not funny, right?

Ann (01:44):

No. Every parent is like, “Thank you for saying it. “

Kathy (01:47):

Yeah, let’s just get that out and just say, because of texting. They think a texting relationship is good enough. Now I’m grateful for texting. You and I were texting and I appreciate texting.

Ann (01:57):

Yeah.

Kathy (01:58):

I appreciate FaceTime and Marco Polo and Facebook. I’m older, so I’m on Facebook more than Instagram and those things can be helpful, but they’re not as good as what we’re doing right here, which is this face-to-face, having lunch together, just enriched our relationship again today. So let’s model again that relationships matter. But if we’re right, that kids are struggling with finding friends and being friends and conflict management and relationships in general. And kids are struggling to find friends, so they don’t know their interest. They don’t know who they are, so they don’t know what their interests are. So they don’t know what to talk about. If somebody says, “How was your day?” They don’t know what to say because they’re not used to having conversations. And if that’s true, then when they find a relationship, they’re going to want to really hang on to that.

(02:41):

And if they think that sex is the way to do it, they’re in big trouble because that’s not the way to do it. But it might be something that they might actually think that that’s easier than having a conversation.

Dave (02:50):

Yeah.

Kathy (02:50):

Oh, that’s so disgusting to even think that. But I wonder if some of them might actually prefer physical intimacy over emotional intimacy because they haven’t experienced emotional intimacy even maybe with moms and dads. And I don’t say that to be harsh, no shame or blame here, but if we’re busy and we’ve become human doings, and please provide and protect, do the ministry to your family, but let’s be emotionally available so that our kids learn that part of life, if that makes sense.

Ann (03:21):

And Kathy, are our kids, I’m thinking even elementary school kids, are they longing for us to know them?

Kathy (03:27):

They’re longing for belonging. Okay. And one of the books that I’ve written that we’ve talked about on the show, we have a need for security and identity and belonging. Does anybody know I’m alive? Am I connected? We’re so busy. And some of them are in schools that are crowded and teams that are full and even—

Ann (03:44):

They’re never seen.

Kathy (03:45):

Yeah. Yeah. They feel like their names aren’t known. Kids will say, “My hand was up all day, and nobody chose to call on me.” And so again, and this is the kid who says to me, “I know I’m valuable. God created me and He didn’t have to, but I don’t feel valuable here.” And so I might as well run, right? I don’t feel safe in my own home. This is why they hang out in their bedroom, and they don’t maybe enjoy us in the den. They don’t want to watch a movie with the family. They’d rather binge watch their own show. So we get that some kids are not vulnerable, but you hang with them. They want to be known. They want to be celebrated.

Ann (04:18):

They want to be liked.

Kathy (04:20):

They do want to be liked.

Ann (04:21):

Yeah.

Kathy (04:21):

If your child is struggling relationally, and you know why—he’s arrogant. He always turns the conversation to himself. He shows off what he knows. He doesn’t help anybody with what they don’t know. If he’s arrogant and that’s a reason his relationships are not well, and you don’t tell him that, that’s not right.

Ann (04:43):

What’s that sound like then? Let’s do a middle schooler or high schooler.

Kathy (04:47):

So he comes home from youth group or church or school and complains, “Man, I sat alone again,” or “Nobody ate with me, ” or, “I was having this conversation with Billy, and he didn’t seem to care.” “Well, have you thought about why?” “Well, Billy just doesn’t care.” They’re almost always going to shift blame. That’s a very common problem in our culture: I can’t be responsible. I’m amazing. Have you met me yet? And I hope people know that was a total sarcasm. So I think we listened to that. “Well, Billy, Billy, Billy” “Well, so you didn’t have anything to do with that? Let me remind you that the last four guys that you’ve attempted to relate well to,”—maybe this is a true story, right? There’s four guys that he maybe thought he was going to like, that none of those relationships lasted—“which is why again, on family movie night, when everybody can invite somebody over, you had nobody to invite over.

(05:37):

So the consistency there is you.” I’m using a lot of words, Ann. You probably can’t use as many words, but I think that the point I would try to make is that you try to bring it to the child. Is there anything that you’re aware of? Oh no, no, it’s all of them. Well, are you open to me giving you some feedback?

Ann (05:55):

Oh, so you’re asking.

Kathy (05:56):

Yeah. Are you open? Because you know what, Ann, if they’re not open, don’t bother wasting your time.

Dave (06:00):

Yeah.

Kathy (06:01):

Now here’s the thing. If I say to a kid, “Hey, I’ve noticed something about the way that you relate to people. Would you be open to my observation?”

(06:09):

Some kids, some boys or girls are going to go, “Yes, please,” because they really are sick of being lonely or desperate to be seen and known. Then you sit down and you say, “Well, even at the family dinner table, we’ve noticed that when your sister Sarah’s talking, you don’t follow up. You don’t say, ‘Tell me more about what happened in school.’ You don’t say, ‘Oh, I bet you loved that.’ You never relate to her and her story. You simply say, ‘Oh yeah, today that happened to me too.’ I’ve noticed that you consistently bring it back to yourself. I wonder with your friends, if they’re not feeling heard because the evidence is that it’s always about you.” And then you watch for the child’s response to that and, “Oh, I didn’t know I was doing that. ” The thing that would be amazing would be then to say to your son, “Here’s what you can do tomorrow. When a kid shares with you in the lunchroom or you go to youth group tonight and kid shares, what are three questions you could ask or three things you could say?

(07:00):

You could say, ‘Tell me more.’”

Dave (07:02):

It’s always a good one.

Kathy (07:03):

Yeah.

Dave:

Three words.

Kathy:

Three words, so easy.

Ann (07:05):

And I like you giving him tools.

Dave:

Keeps the conversation going.

Kathy (07:07):

See, the thing is that’s correction. Correction is to put it right. Criticism is to point it out. Criticism is you don’t listen fully to the story, and you turn it back on yourself. That’s criticism what you’re doing wrong. Correction is, therefore, try this. Therefore is the instructional moment, if you will. So you could ask, “How did that make you feel?” It’s a really honoring question.

Ann (07:32):

These are marriage tools too, relationship tools.

Kathy (07:35):

They really are. And I don’t think we should assume that they wouldn’t be relevant. There’s listeners saying, “Kathy, that makes sense but my son, my son won’t want to. My son will say, ‘No, keep your ideas to yourself.’” But here’s the thing. They might say that the first time. Let them say that the first time. Walk away and pray. And I could almost guarantee you he’s going to come back in 24 hours because what you just did was plant the seed that you have a solution. And if the kid is hurting enough, he’s going to want the solution. And now he finds out you have a solution. He doesn’t have to ask Siri, and he doesn’t even have to depend upon a member of a peer group. He goes, “Wait, my dad, he does have good relationships, and I think he legitimately cares.” And now 24 hours later, you run an errand with him, or you go for a walk. He doesn’t have a clue you’re going for a walk because you know that he probably wants to talk.

So now again, you sacrifice and you go out of your way. So if they say no the first time, don’t panic and don’t be mad and don’t assume that he’s so arrogant. Just assume that he was not able to be vulnerable in the moment. You surprised him. He didn’t have the words to communicate with, especially boys, that’s a challenge. But then be available and be present over the next 48 hours.

(08:46):

And when your child comes back and says, “Hey, could we talk?” Then you don’t say, “Well, it’s about time.”

Ann (08:50):

I like how you kind of dangle it. “I have some thoughts on that. Would you like to hear them?” And they may say no and walk away, “Like you would know.” But even the fact that you would just dangle that out there and ask them kindly, I’d be willing to talk to you more about it, but you’re asking them. That’s respectful.

Kathy (09:14):

Yes.

Ann (09:15):

And I think they would come back.

Kathy (09:15):

I love that you said respectful. So that’s how you secure the heart again, right?

Ann (09:19):

Yes.

Kathy (09:19):

That’s an optimistic perspective. And you know what else is really good about that, Ann? It does give you potentially a couple of hours to think of more to say.

Ann (09:26):

Yes, exactly.

Kathy (09:27):

Because you’re having this conversation spontaneously and you maybe don’t know for sure how you would answer the question. So you’re also giving yourself a break too. Again, pray and ask the Spirit to guide the words and the emotions and then also to really do some inward thinking about what would be a good idea here.

Ann (09:42):

It gives God time to move and work too.

Kathy (09:44):

Oh I love that.

Ann (09:45):

It really does because when I force my kids like, “This is what I think, and this is what you should do.” It just allows God to drop wisdom, give us wisdom, opens hearts. I think that’s so good.

Kathy (09:57):

There was a situation where I was doing something similar talking to some parents. And so the parents, praise God, they were teachable and they tried this. And there was a daughter who came back to a mom the next day and said, “Hey mom, I was thinking about our conversation. What if I tried this?” So the girl had come up with a potential solution, verbalize it and the mom was able to say, “Great idea.”

Ann:

Oh, I love it.

Kathy:

Is that precious? So now the girl is affirmed for her own creative problem-solving thinking, and the mom was able to rest a little bit in the fact that the daughter was capable of coming up with ideas when she realized that that is a changeable situation.

Dave (10:37):

What if the questions you’re too embarrassed to ask are the ones your marriage needs answered?

Ann (10:44):

Marriage After Dark is FamilyLife’s newest podcast where a real married couple talks openly about healthy, God-honoring sex. Yes, the stuff you’d never ask your pastor or your friends.

Dave (10:57):

Yeah. So for more, go to FamilyLife.com/MarriageAfterDark because intimacy shouldn’t stay in the dark. Again, that’s FamilyLife.com/MarriageAfterDark.

All right. Walk us through the five core needs. I know you’ve done this many times and you wrote about it in this book as well. Parents I don’t think understand these are core DNA inside needs of your child.

Kathy (11:30):

I love the way you did that and said that. Yeah. They’re wired; they’re wired into us.

Dave (11:35):

They’re deep. We don’t understand that.

Ann:

It’s true for adults too. I’m looking at these core needs in there.

Dave:

We don’t grow out of these.

Kathy (11:41):

No. No, because God wires them into us so that we would know Him.

(11:45):

And make Him known. So first one is security. It needs to be the firm foundation because when we are securing people who are trustworthy, we can take risks, we can discover ourselves. We can’t ask questions that we need answers to if there’s a risk that we’re going to be rejected. So security is key. Security in people, certainly moms, dads, siblings, grandparents, teachers, coaches, et cetera. Even in appropriate security in ourselves where we discover that we can be right and do right even when no one is looking. And for the Bible believer, Christ follower, that would be trusting the Holy Spirit to guide us and we’re going to learn to be obedient to that. But most importantly, security is found in God. The fact that God is true and righteous and shows us the right way and corrects us and loves us even when we’re messing up and not following His ways.

(12:34):

Jesus who died on our behalf, of course, and the Holy Spirit. So raising children up to trust Christ. So do we trust God? Do we? And do we demonstrate that we do? Again, when do the kids see us open the Bible? When do they hear us pray? When we send a kid off to school and he’s worried about a biology test, do we pray and do they hear us pray for them as they’re getting their coat on? Do they come home and have we set a calendar reminder so that we ask them about their test? And maybe we don’t say, “How do you think you did?” Maybe we say, “Are you happy with how you think you did?” But we ask the question, so they know that we’re following through. “Oh, I don’t know yet. Teacher hasn’t graded it,” and we set another calendar alert, so 48 hours later we ask.

Ann (13:13):

I love this. I love setting the calendar, putting it on your calendar to ask.

Kathy (13:17):

We’re busy, right? And if you’ve got more than one kid, how do you possibly remember which kid had a test or which kid had a relationship falling out that you’re going to follow up? That’s all security. So that’s first and foremost.

Ann (13:26):

And we’re asking; we’re not saying, “How’d you do on the test?”

Kathy (13:29):

I like asking, “Are you happy with how you did on the test?”

Ann (13:32):

Okay. That’s so much better because it’s not performance.

Kathy (13:36):

Exactly. And it gives them a time to reflect and they, “Well, I don’t know yet. The teacher hasn’t graded.” “Okay, wait, you have no idea how you did?” See, I believe that they should be thoughtfully thinking about, are they satisfied? Because if they’re not satisfied, they should study more next time. And they should decide that before they earn the grade, if that makes sense. That’s a whole nother—

Ann (13:56):

Kathy, we need the Holy Spirit and you in our ear. Because we’re talking to our kids like, “Oh, I wish I’d have known this stuff before.”

Dave (14:04):

Well, I was also thinking security is safety in a sense. At least that’s one of the symptoms is I feel safe.

Kathy (14:11):

Yeah.

Dave (14:11):

Because I got a security guard around, I got a fence, I got locks, whatever it is. So with a parent, if I don’t think my parent is secure, not for me, but for them.

Kathy (14:22):

Oh, true.

Dave (14:23):

If every night, all dad does is worry about money and his job. And I really can sense he’s afraid and he’s—how do I feel secure when I’m watching that? So you said it earlier, our modeling, our walk with God is so pivotal because they’re going to copy it. It doesn’t matter what we say. They’re watching and they’re going to emulate the same thing in some place, right?

Kathy (14:48):

Very true. Yeah. So do we say we trust God, but then we worry and we ask a thousand questions and we never look at the Bible and we’re late for church. And again, no shame or blame here. This is why—

Ann (14:59):

It’s like a mirror.

Kathy (15:00):

Yeah, this is why we’re here to talk about it.

Ann (15:01):

What about security and beauty? I thought this was kind of fascinating because you talk about a daughter who is maybe placing her need for security in believing she’s the most beautiful.

Kathy (15:11):

Right, right.

Ann (15:13):

And all of our kids—

Dave:

Doesn’t every daughter do that?

Ann:

Well, we find our security in something other than who we are in Christ.

Kathy (15:20):

Right.

Ann (15:21):

So how do we address those?

Kathy (15:23):

Yeah. If we find our security in things, we’re in trouble—security in our soccer ability, security in our grade, security in our income, security in the cul-de-sac we live on, security in beauty. I am beautiful; therefore I am secure. My identity, I am beautiful. My belonging is based on how pretty I am. The guys pay attention because I’m pretty. My purpose is to be pretty and to make sure that you know that I’m pretty. And my competence is I am pretty. Those are the five core needs. But Ann, what happens when a cuter kid walks into youth group or you have a bad hair day or a zit that’s noticeable or you’re wearing something and you decide at 10 o’clock in the morning, you don’t really look very good in it. Everything crushed, right? The whole pyramid collapses and you have nothing left. And so we can affirm kids beauty.

(16:07):

Now, God would teach us to look at the heart.

Dave (16:10):

Yeah, 1 Samuel 16.

Kathy (16:10):

—1 Samuel 16.

Dave (16:11):

Yeah.

Kathy (16:12):

So God would say, look at the heart, so I think we should as well. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t affirm a kid’s beauty. What I would like us to do though is to affirm what they do with their beauty, not that they are beautiful.

(16:22):

Because how beautiful or handsome they are, is God’s choice. They don’t really control that, but they control the way they fix their hair. They control the choice of their clothes. They control whether or not they wear jewelry or whatever. So one of my nieces was a flute player and she had a flute solo. I remember this like it was yesterday, long, beautiful blonde hair. And for the night of the band concert, she chose a sophisticated updo so that her hair was never in her eyes. She never had to worry about her hair during the entire concert and especially when she stood to play her solo. So at the end of the night, I affirmed her artistic beauty. She’s an excellent flute player. And I also said, you were so smart to do the sophisticated updo because your hair was never a distraction. So I affirmed what she did with her beauty.

Ann (17:04):

I like that.

Kathy (17:05):

And we can do that on a regular basis. But here’s the thing I tell dads all the time, if you tell your daughter she’s pretty, tell her something else too. Because otherwise she’ll think that your only belief in her is her cuteness and now when she skins her nose she won’t want to see you. So every time you affirm, “Man, you’re looking good today,” and “I also love how creative you are.” “Man, you’re looking good today,” and “I watched you be patient with grandma. You’re a good granddaughter.” Because if you don’t do that, her security will be relationally to you, her beauty.

Ann (17:34):

Wow.

Kathy (17:34):

And she won’t want to see you the day that she’s grown too fast or she fell down and skinned her nose.

Dave (17:39):

Every one of these applies to marriage too.

Ann:

It does. They’re all so good.

Dave:

I mean, you do that with your wife or you’re doing that with your spouse, that’s—

Ann (17:46):

Even the competence and perfectionism, if you find your worth through that, so many of these are security through that. So I feel like this is a self-analysis for all of us as parents, but also how we’re talking about this to our kids really matters.

Kathy (18:02):

So it is, what do we believe about the core needs and does God fulfill them for us?

Dave (18:06):

Well, you’ve only done one.

Ann (18:07):

I know.

Kathy:

So I better keep going. I don’t know how many minutes we have left. So then we get to identity, who am I? So we have security. Who can I trust? Identity, who am I? And I think every listener would realize we do have an identity crisis going on in our culture. We have an identity crisis because we have a security crisis. Because if we don’t know who to listen to, we will not know who we are. We’ll listen to this coach and then this billboard and this lyricist and this TV sitcom dialogue and then this member of the peer group. We got to be listening to God because He will faithfully tell us who we are. It’ll always be true and real. And then our identity is in Christ. The most important identity that we can have is in Christ. I’m a Christ follower.

(18:44):

I’m a conqueror. I’m a warrior. I’m complete in Christ. I am dead to sin and alive to Christ Jesus. I am walking the narrow road. I’m a follower. I’m a friend of God. We have got to teach our children who God says they are because that is true forevermore into adulthood, into the despair of older age, if that would be a hard time for us to have.

Ann (19:05):

Any coaching on how to help us do that as parents, like that list that you just went through?

Kathy (19:10):

Yeah.

Ann (19:11):

As I’m saying again, you just need to get the book and all of her books, but I think parents are like, “Oh yeah, that’s true. You’re a warrior.” All of the identity words in Christ.

Dave (19:21):

By the way, if you’re sitting there going, “I got to get the book right now,” FamilyLife.com. There’s a link in the show notes. Go get it right now.

Kathy (19:28):

That’s so kind. Yeah, I think know the Word of God, know what He says about us. We read the Word primarily to get to know Him, obviously, and we’re created in His image. So when we get to know Him, we’re actually getting to know ourselves. And there are about 50 what we call “I have” and “I am” statements in the scripture about us. I am chosen. I am a royal priesthood. I have eternal life. And when we see those as we’re reading scripture, we highlight those and we say those things to our children. Another way that we affect identity is to be very specific in our affirmations. Don’t assume you can’t tell them that they’re good at something for fear they’ll get prideful. They need to know their strengths or they can’t overcome weakness.

(20:06):

But be specific. Don’t say, “Oh, that was really good,” because what’s that? Good means I’ve judged you. I’m happy, but it doesn’t allow you to do it again. Were you accurate? Was it creative? Was it thoughtful? Was it unique? Was it well organized? Was it timely? Was it passionate? So again, in this book, there’s a whole appendix of complimenting words because the tendency is to just simply say good or bad and that’s not going to work. So identity is who am I? And it’s huge and it needs to be primarily found in Christ. I would also say to our listeners here FamilyLife Today that part of security and part of identity is those are my parents.

(20:39):

I’m in this family. My last name is Koch. This is my family. It’s very important. That’s part of security, part of identity. And then we get to belonging, who wants me? Well, my family wants me. If they’re secure in you because you tell the truth and you instruct and you don’t tell and yell, and their identity is in Christ and in you, “My dad’s a great dad. I like being his son,” then belonging, again “My dad’s a great dad. I like being his son.” and now we have a multi-generational biblical worldview family that actually might be healthy. Like go figure because we’re so concerned at Celebrate Kids about what you’re concerned about, which would be the decay of the family and the dysfunction within the family. Belonging again in God. If my security is Christ and my identity is Christ, my belonging is Christ. And now when they leave that church and they leave that school and they move out and move on, they have Christ with them.

Ann (21:26):

That’s good.

Kathy (21:27):

That’s what we have to have in this cultural moment. So belonging is who wants me, not who needs me. It’s, who wants me? Does anybody know I’m alive? Who do I hang with? And again, we are chosen and we are adopted and we are deeply loved. And Christ died for us and God made us in his image that we would worship Him, which is belonging.

(21:45):

And again, do our kids want to be with us? Do they want to go to the movies with you? Do they like you? Do you like them? Are they willing to have a friend over? Are they willing to be seen with you? If not, that’s risky. And I’ll say one other really quick thing. I can teach friendship skills. We actually, in the book that I’ve written about this topic, we do have a six-page spread of friendship skills, but if my identity is, I am a jerk, my belonging will be at risk even if I teach you friendship skills. If my security is, I know more than you know, my identity is I know more than you know. My belonging will be at risk because are you going to want to hang out with me? If I always know more than you and I put you down and make you feel bad?

(22:24):

No. So identity leads to belonging. So when we look at isolation in our culture, we look at loneliness, we look at some of the data about suicidal thought lives, much of this is rooted in the fact that their identity is not healthy, therefore their belonging cannot be.

(22:39):

And then we get to purpose, why am I alive? Why did God bother making me for such a time as this, to quote from Esther? Well, we’re alive to put God on display. You do this so well here at FamilyLife. We’re alive to glorify God. We’re alive to bring people into a relationship with Jesus Christ. We’re alive to fulfill the great commandment and the great commission and that’s purpose, which is why belonging is first because our purpose is to serve people. If I have no belonging, I have no relationships, I have no family, I’m isolated, no youth group, no children’s church, I’m just alone, then I don’t need purpose because purpose is to leave the world a better place and we do that by relating well to people. So when I meet people who are apathetic, who are choosing to not engage with much of life and they’re just plateauing, that’s a lack of relationship.

(23:27):

So if you’re parenting a kid who won’t serve, who won’t get out of the house, who won’t engage, give them purpose of service because we’ll find skills when we serve. We’ll find passion when we serve. We’ll find people when we serve. It’ll happen.

Dave (23:45):

Another great day with Kathy, great wisdom, great practical truths, applications all of the above.

Ann (23:51):

There’s a lot of conviction of things that we aren’t doing that we should do and maybe you’re feeling a little overwhelmed like, “How am I going to put this into our family schedule?”

Dave (24:01):

How am I going to even remember? Here’s how you remember. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the link in the show notes to get her book and that will help you remember not only what to do, but how to do it. So do that right now and come back tomorrow because we’re going to have another day with Kathy.

Ann (24:17):

We know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. And as a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.

Dave (24:32):

So let’s make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the donate button.

Ann (24:45):

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