Engagement over Ease: How Men Avoid Passivity and Choose Presence–Dads Panel

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Engagement over Ease: How Men Avoid Passivity and Choose Presence

Guests:Daron George, Jorge Rosario, Brian Goins

From the series:Dad’s Panel: A Gritty Guide to Balancing Work and Family

(Day 2 of 3)

Air date:June 18, 2026

Brian (00:04):

We got a call from a mom basically outing one of our kids.

Jorge (00:09):

Wow.

Brian (00:10):

And man, you talk about embarrassing. And you’re starting, thinking about your perception management and you’re in ministry and all this kind of stuff, and you’re feeling all that and all you feel is anger. How could my kid do this to me? And it’s like you got to step back from that and go, “We all do that.” So now how do I move through that chaos and connect them to a Savior?

Ann (00:39):

Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave (00:45):

And I’m Dave Wilson and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

All right. We got the men’s panel back in the studio. We got Brian and Jorge and Daron and talking about marriage, talking about being dads. I just spoke at a men’s conference in New York. I said to these men, and I never said it quite like this before, I said, “I don’t think we have a toxic masculinity problem. We have a toxic passivity problem.” And they cheered.

Daron (01:24):

That’s a good word.

Dave (01:25):

I got a reaction. I’m like, something connected with that. And again, I’m not saying toxic masculinity is not a thing. It’s a thing.

Jorge (01:32):

It is a thing. Yeah.

Dave (01:32):

You power up and you control. That is ridiculous. But I think guys in the room resonated with, I am not as active in my family, my parenting, my marriage as I should be. Maybe I’ve even heard that in different ways from my wife. So answer this question. How do we step out? I always talk about four pillars of manhood. The R for real man, is a real man rejects passivity. And I try to say passivity’s in there. It was in Adam and we can rip on Adam in the garden. And then we look in the mirror and go, “I’m as bad as Adam.” So when we feel it in us, we have to reject it and push it down and act. What’s that look like for you guys?

Daron (02:12):

So I think for me it’s intentionality. And I think one of the ways I get passive is I got so many other things I could be doing right now. I’ll just let that go and then I’ll get to it when I can. Those things I’ve noticed in me that if I start doing that, they need my attention. And so I try to be intentional about those things.

Dave:

Step into it.

Daron:

Step into it.

Brian (02:32):

Daron’s really responsible. He’s like “I could be doing—so many other things I could be doing right now.” I always think there’s so many different things I could be watching right now.

Daron (02:39):

No, what else could I be doing.

Brian (02:41):

I could be thinking about all the leisure things I can be doing.

(02:44):

But I think it is intentionality. I think a lot of it is just systems too. It’s like figuring out what are those regular habits that I just keep consistently in my life. Like for me and Jen praying together. It wasn’t anything magical. It was one, just admitting, “I don’t really want to do this. I’m not really excited about this. I’m not drawn to this.” And being okay with that and just admitting it. But we bought these two new chairs, and we sat them together and we were having coffee in the morning. Jen put a list together and we just started praying through the list.

Jorge (03:15):

Wow.

Brian (03:15):

Started out maybe five minutes a day and we don’t hit every day, but it’s like most days in a week if we’re in those chairs and we’re having coffee together, one of us will say, “All right, you ready to pray?” And just that list and that system has helped us. So I think there’s got to be something in place. Otherwise, I think my tendency is just to pull back.

Daron (03:33):

Oh yeah.

Dave (03:34):

Yeah. Is there any sense that you need accountability?

Brian (03:37):

Oh yeah.

Daron (03:37):

Oh, 100%.

Dave (03:38):

Whether it’s your wife or another guy or group of guys, what’s that look like in your life? Do you have that?

Daron (03:43):

I have two guys in my life. I’m thinking about them right now that they do that. They know my life inside and out. They’re those people that can say what needs to be said and I got to swallow it. We started out meeting for coffee and all that. Now it’s just really organic. It’s a text message; it’s a phone call. And for whatever reason, man, the Holy Spirit talks to them. They’ll call me at the right time like, “Hey, what are you doing right now?” “Well, you just caught me and I’m sitting here,” and they’re like, “Why? You should be doing this. You said you’re going to do this or checking in on my family.” So it started out intentional now and became really organic that I expect a message from them at least two to three times a day.

Dave (04:18):

Really?

Daron (04:18):

Yeah.

Dave (04:19):

Man, you must really need help, huh?

Daron:

Oh, I do, man. I do. I’m telling you.

Dave:

We all do. That’s the truth. We really do.

Jorge (04:25):

The community aspect of living in the body is new to me because I’ve just been a loner. I’ve always just been like I know mentally I need people. It wasn’t a reality in my life. The past couple years I have a circle of men who, not two, three times a day, but yeah, regularly we check in on each other and it’s something that I’m learning not just mentally, but now it’s a part of my walk to live in community and it is. It’s been this huge benefit in my life where men can actually check me. I got some pastors that will check me and say, yeah, like you said, “Jorge, what are you doing?” And yeah, it’s been transformational. It’s been challenging because I still hate it. I don’t like it. Yeah.

Daron (05:13):

There are days I don’t want it.

Jorge (05:14):

Yeah. Yeah, man. But it’s needed. And also living life with other married couples that want the same thing for their marriages and for their parenting.

Daron (05:23):

Yeah. That is so important.

Dave (05:25):

Yeah, I know. I’m guessing you guys experienced this when you don’t want to go to the gym and then you go. Usually when you’re walking out, not every time, but nine out of ten times for me, I’m walking out going, “I’m glad I did it.”

Daron:

Oh yeah.

Dave:

I didn’t want to. I sort of walked in like—next thing you know I get into it, it’s an hour and hour and a half later and I’m walking out going, “That’s a good thing.” And that’s why we need men in our lives because a lot of times I wouldn’t go to the gym by myself, but if there’s a guy there, I’m going to do it, that type of thing. I mean, I think that passivity Is a big deal.

Brian (05:54):

I feel that way, especially about the conversations that I know I need to have with my kids that I just don’t want to have. I sat down with Gibson the other day. We were playing racquetball and there was something that just made me want to check him how he’s doing with his phone, what he’s looking at, you know the stuff. He’s a 17-year-old boy. I hadn’t asked him in a while, and I wanted to see where he’s at and it’s like I don’t want to start that conversation because I’d rather just be—I feel like we’re doing good. We played a good game. It was fun. I’d rather be fun and harmonious than intimate, especially with my kids because I want them to like me at the end of the day.

Jorge (06:33):

And it’s easier.

Brian (06:33):

It is easier. But I always feel better after.

Dave (06:37):

Yeah.

Brian (06:38):

And I think it’s like what you’re saying about working out.

Dave (06:39):

But you said the word, those conversations. I didn’t have daughters, so I don’t know if it’s different with girls.

Jorge (06:45):

I don’t have daughters either.

Brian:

I got one.

Dave (06:46):

But those conversations where you step into something that’s a little tense like the phone or whatever, those are intimate. And there’s part of me that’s like, “I don’t want that kind of intimacy. I’ll just avoid it,” and then we’re good and we’re smiling and the moment’s gone. And if I look back on regrets, it’s like those moments when you feel the nudge of the Spirit, I think it’s the Spirit of God saying, “Step in here,” and you don’t, we all know because we’re old enough to know those are gone and they’re gone forever.

Jorge (07:13):

I was just wanting to follow up on what you said about that relationship with the Holy Spirit because a lot of times I think with the accountability partners piece of it, we tend to prioritize that relationship as the only source of accountability. For me, this relationship that we have with the Holy Spirit, the conviction piece of the spirit of God literally saying to me, “Do you love your wife?” And me looking in the mirror, I’ve done this, look in the mirror, “Do I love my wife?” Then do something. It’s this conviction that the Holy Spirit just regularly does, routinely does. So that’s also part of what accountability looks like, I think.

Brian:

Yeah, it’s good.

Jorge:

Yeah. Not just let me call a friend, which is important, but I just don’t want to minimize the Holy Spirit’s work.

Daron (07:56):

And I think it’s mainly when you’re not listening. The Holy Spirit has told you a couple of times, “Okay, you’re going to keep ignoring me? I got something for you.”

Dave (08:05):

All right. I want you to brag.

Daron:

What?

Jorge:

See, that’s my specialty.

Dave (08:08):

Yeah, go for it.

Jorge:

I’m here for it. I’m the best.

Dave (08:10):

Give me one or maybe two things you’ve done right. Let’s start with parenting. As a dad, I did this one right or I’m doing it right.

Jorge (08:23):

I just started doing it, right?

Brian:

Yesterday?

Jorge:

Again, back to what we were talking about earlier, the vulnerability piece, like confessing my sins to my children. Often, we read that passage in James, confess your sins one to another. We don’t think about the kids. You said real men. Real men confess their sins.

Dave (08:42):

And you know what it says in James 5, that you just quoted.

Jorge (08:46):

Yes.

Dave (08:46):

Confess your sins to one another so that what?

Jorge (08:48):

We pray for another and be healed.

Dave (08:51):

Yeah, I mean, it’s like you confess your sins to God for forgiveness and you receive it.

Jorge:

Exactly.

Dave:

But the healing part, isn’t that interesting that it says it’s a human being. You don’t hide that. And you’re saying doing it with your kids.

Jorge (09:02):

Doing it with your kids, which is a foreign concept to me, maybe to most believers. We think of confession toward other adult men that are in the same—

Dave (09:13):

Hey, I want to hear from you guys on this one, but before we go there, I want to ask this from all three of you guys. Hey, and Bruce, we got the young dad in there.

Brian (09:20):

Yeah, we got him. He’s got plenty of time.

Dave (09:21):

You can jump in on this too.

Brian (09:22):

He can confess a lot of sins.

Dave (09:23):

I want to know this. Is there a limit to the confession? Is there a line you shouldn’t go over? I remember when our youngest was in the house and the other two were off to college. His name’s Cody. He’s sitting there as like a junior in high school. Nobody’s at the table except Ann, me, and Cody. And he looks at us the first week and goes, “So did you guys ever have sex before marriage?”

Daron (09:49):

Oh, I’d answer that in a heartbeat.

Jorge (09:50):

I would.

Dave (09:51):

And I’m like, “Here it is.” And I mean, we looked at Ann, I looked at her like, “How honest should we be?” I don’t want him to go, “Oh, look where you are now, so no big deal.” Or do I lie? So it was like how—

Jorge (10:04):

Those are your options.

Dave (10:08):

I said, I got to go to the bathroom.

Brian (10:09):

And Ann, what did she answer?

Dave (10:11):

No, we were honest. We were honest.

Brian:

That’s good. And that aspect of our life was before we were followers of Christ.

(10:18):

And after we became followers of Christ, it really became an issue like, “This has got to stop.” And it did. And I wasn’t even dating Ann at that time, but we started dating as we’re believers. So I told him the full thing, but there was a catch in my spirit. I’ve had other mentors say, “No, you don’t need to go there. Just keep some of that—you don’t share everything,” so that’s why I asked.

Daron:

That’s a good question.

Dave:

And some of it’s you have brothers you can ask and the Holy Spirit, but you got to decide how honest you’re going to be. All right, go back. What did I say? Oh, brag. What’s something you’ve done right?

Brian (10:48):

We’re going back to bragging now. Okay. I thought we were still on, how much do I confess?

Dave (10:51):

You want to go there?

Brian (10:53):

I can go everywhere you want.

Dave (10:54):

Go there. I want to hear what you guys think about that.

Brian (10:54):

I definitely think, I think the more that you can lead with vulnerability, I don’t think you have to always give all the details, but I think I encourage a lot of dads, especially with pornography, when they start talking to their kids about it, you’ve got to lead with your story because otherwise they’ll own their own shame. And so it’s like, how do I bring the shame into the light and realize that I’m not beholden, but there is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. And so I can share my story, whatever that shame might be, and obviously at age-appropriate times, but there’s times where they need to hear it. So I think being real with, especially when you mess up with your wife or where you take her for granted or when you’re having a yelling match, I mean, to be able to apologize in that moment and come back and say, “I blew it.

(11:40):

I blew it.”

Daron (11:42):

So I have the same answer for both those questions. I am extremely open with my kids, so they know this. There are certain questions they won’t ask me because they don’t want the answer to and I’m okay with that because I told them and if they are too young to hear it, I’ll tell them, I said, “You too young to hear it right now, but I will let you know one day.” And I think that leads to the one thing that I think I’ve done really well, that’s something that I’ve never had modeled, but I really wanted modeled in my own life is that I apologize to my kids when I’m wrong.

Jorge (12:06):

Yeah, that’s really good.

Daron (12:08):

I do. And that is the hardest apology that I ever have to give because number one, they’re my kids. Number two, I don’t want to apologize to them. Why am I telling you sorry? I don’t want to say sorry to you.

Jorge:

Right. You don’t pay no rent.

Daron:

You should be listening to me. But no, but so if I feel like I’ve done them wrong, I will immediately apologize.

Dave (12:23):

How about—

Brian:

I got one.

Daron (12:25):

That hurts.

Brian (12:26):

We hear enough about you, Dave.

Dave (12:28):

No, I wasn’t going to tell mine.

Brian (12:29):

That’s right. You ready to brag again? I get it.

Dave:

I like bragging. Ann’s not here.

Brian:

I was going to brag on my wife for a second. I think that we’ve done mundane well and so much of life is just mundane. I was about to say, “Oh, we’ve done vacations well,” and it’s like that. But I think the reality of just having dinner around the table five nights a week.

Daron (12:50):

I’m learning that right there. My wife loves that and I’m an extremely spontaneous person. I’ll wake up in the morning like, “Okay, let’s go on a trip.” She’ll have fun with that, but she does not enjoy that. What brings her comfort and peace is the mundane.

Dave (13:02):

You guys do five nights a week?

Brian (13:04):

When our kids weren’t off doing a ton of activity, like athletics and stuff like that, but in general, I would say four nights a week, I’d say pretty confidently four nights a week we’re having dinner together.

Jorge (13:15):

That’s good.

Dave (13:16):

Way to go.

Jorge (13:17):

Yeah, way to go.

Brian (13:17):

No, but I think that’s not everybody but is there anything that’s in your life that’s like that consistent? And those dinners aren’t magical. I mean, we’re still washing dishes, but that’s the other thing I’d say is just, are you washing dishes? Are you doing chores together? So much of life is mundane. So if you can do the mundane well and I think your kids get into this— Now, we have my daughter who’s calling and she’s telling Jen, she’s like, “I’m going to surprise Connor. They’re newlyweds, so everything’s a surprise. I’m going to surprise him tonight by showing a new candle and whatever.” It’s like, I don’t want to hear all that right now, but she’s like, “Yeah, I’m going to surprise him with this meal tonight.” And so you just go, “That’s life is around this table.”

Dave (13:55):

There was a study, I don’t know if you ever saw it years ago, University of Michigan study that said, “What are the commonalities in families that raise adult kids that turn out very, very healthy?” You know what it was? Their conclusion was one thing, four nights a week at the dinner table—

Brian (14:13):

There we go.

Jorge (14:14):

Well, good. Man, I’m going to add that to my list.

Daron (14:15):

I’m doing something else well. We can go with it.

Brian (14:19):

I wish I could say I read the study. I just listened to my wife.

Dave (14:24):

That’s a fascinating—you think about it. It’s a fascinating answer. Like, wait, I thought it would be they taught this, they did this. No, they sat around a table, they looked in each other’s eyes and they did—and I tell you what, this world we’re living in, most families don’t. Sports, different activities, which are all important. I remember when our three boys were playing high school football, Ann said, “Okay, you’re not home at six o’clock. We’re waiting until 8:00 PM and we’re having dinner together as a family.”

Ann (14:54):

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Dave (15:05):

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Ann (15:22):

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Dave (15:41):

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Ann (15:50):

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Dave (16:01):

So let us help you take that step.

All right, Bruce, we’re throwing it into the sound—

Control Room – Bruce (16:09):

Control room.

Dave (16:10):

Control room. Yeah, we’re throwing it into the control room. What do you got?

Jorge (16:13):

He’s good at control.

Control Room – Bruce (16:13):

I’m just thinking about the confession and the bragging and what Brian said reminded me that it’s kind of you can get both. When we confess to our kids, we have no need to fear, oh no, this sin I’m about to confess is too big. You know what I mean? Like you’re saying, we don’t need to go into all the details, but there is no sin too big because you get to brag on Jesus. It’s like, “Yeah, kids, look how bad this sin was,” whatever it was. There is no need to fear because you can brag on Jesus and say, “Yeah, that sin was bad, but look at the Savior we’ve got.” Shame is gone. Sin is gone. We confess to that and we’re free and what a model that is to our kids. Who should bring a charge against God’s elect? Nobody. So we can say that freely.

(17:01):

Pretty awesome. My oldest is 10, so far, the questions haven’t been too hard. I can say that easily but check back in another six years.

Daron:

That’s good.

Brian (17:10):

Well, you got your age group, Bruce, all 10 and younger. Brag on something that you guys, any habits that you guys have that you—

Dave (17:19):

They do so many things.

Brian (17:20):

I know they do. I know they do great stuff. Come on.

Control Room – Bruce (17:22):

Mostly my wife. I mean, she’s amazing.

Dave (17:24):

Brag on her.

Control Room – Bruce (17:25):

She homeschools. So I’m getting ready in the morning and I’m overhearing, they’re going through the new city catechism: “Why did God create us?” and all this stuff. And the girls are sitting there singing. It’s incredible to see their mom just bringing them up and Proverbs 31 talks about her husband, this virtuous woman, her husband trusts in her. And man, what a beautiful thing to see her raising them up in the faith.

Daron (17:51):

I realized during the COVID time that I cannot homeschool my kids. It is something I wanted to do. And then I almost killed—

Dave:

Did you try?

Daron:

Oh, I tried.

Dave (18:01):

So what would you guys say to a guy like Bruce and I’m talking season of life. They’ve got young kids.

Jorge:

A lot of things I want to say to Bruce.

Dave:

You all have older kids. They want to do fathering well. They want to be the husband. If you had 30 minutes with him at lunch, what would you say?

Daron (18:20):

One of the biggest lessons that I wish I would have learned earlier is that achievement is not everything. That was really, really hard for me to learn. As someone who is driven and who likes to accomplish things and knock things off of a list, achievement is not everything because once you achieve it, sometimes I feel empty. I’m like, “Man, I did all this work to get here and what for? ”

Dave (18:38):

If achievement isn’t everything, what is?

Daron (18:41):

There we go. So I think it is learning about the journey and the process of bringing my family with me is what is actually helped me want to achieve more, but this time it’s different. It’s not me achieving for the sake of achievement. It’s I want my family along with me. I want my kids to see the things that I’m doing. Why? Because I want them to know that you can do these things. I want to do these things with my wife. Why? So that when she looks back, she’s like, “Man, you know what? We did these things together.” We did the same thing with school. My first degree, she’s like, “Man, we did this together.” “Yeah, we sure did do this together. I couldn’t do it without you.” Raising the kids, we do those things together. And it brings this cohesiveness to our family that they’re like, “Man, if my dad can do this,” because they know where I come from.

(19:19):

They know my history and they’re like, “Man, Dad.” And their favorite thing is to make fun of me. They love it. They’re like, “Dad, I was never as bad as you. ” And I said, “You’re right and don’t try it. Don’t try it.” But achievement by itself is not—it’s not everything. It’s not everything because you can get there and still be lonely. And the thing is just bringing my family with me and that’s changed the whole game for me. It’s fun now.

Dave (19:41):

Jorge, what about you? What would you say to a young dad?

Jorge (19:43):

There’s a lot of pressure to get this thing done right, right? Parenting. Just trust God with your kids. So yeah, be intentional about teaching your children. You’re going to fail from time to time. Don’t be so hard on yourself and learn from other good dads—

Daron (20:01):

Failure’s baked in.

Jorge (20:02):

—not me, Bruce.

Daron (20:05):

For sure. Well, you’re baked in. You’re going to fail. Get ready for that. It’s okay.

Jorge (20:06):

Yeah, not to minimize sin.

Control room – Bruce:

Oh, for sure.

Jorge:

Because that’s not okay. But the kids need to know, deal aggressively with your sin. Confession is a part of that, but also just get up. Righteous man falls seven times but gets back up and just keep running this race. It’s a daily grind and we have a hope. I think that’s like the beautiful gospel demonstration. I demonstrate the gospel to my kids now when before they thought I was perfect.

Brian (20:40):

Yeah.

Dave (20:40):

Brian, you got one?

Brian (20:41):

I think we’re all hitting it in the same sense. There is no perfect parent. You think about, who is the most perfect father in all of eternity—is Father God and look how his kids turned out. And I think for me, I would probably say, we already said a lot of good stuff about being intentional and confessing and really getting in a few good habits. But I think some for me is just the perspective of my goal isn’t just for my kids to make my life easier. That my life will be better. And there is some great wisdom to—Proverb talks about when you discipline your children, it will give their parents rest. There is a lot of truth to that, and you want to be a good, disciplined parent, but recognizing that they are working out their own sin. And so to not be surprised when they break your heart, because they will break your heart; and they will break it in ways that allow you to connect with the heart of the Father because you think, how often does God feel this?

(21:42):

If He truly loves us the way He says He does. And that He’s a personal God. And to see, how many times have I been wayward today in my thoughts? So you multiply that by billions.

(21:53):

And for God to be broken. I would just say it’s like; it’s going to happen. Feel the brokenness. It hurts. In your own heart, feel the hurt, feel the pain, and then go, okay, then how do we move forward and go, how do I love them in such a way that God loves me?

Dave (22:10):

So something happened in you when you said that.

Brian (22:12):

You just replay, you pray the conversations where my daughter in college just working on her own sinful nature and you get shocked and you go, “That’s not how we raised you. And that’s not how you’ve presented yourself to us.” And then you find out the real story. My son in high school and catching him with weed again and how do you deal with in that moment, how do you bring him back to God? The goal isn’t to make my life better in this moment or to be embarrassed because of how he—we got a call from a mom, basically, outing one of our kids and man, you talk about embarrassing. And you’re starting, thinking about your perception management and you’re in ministry and all this kind of stuff and you’re feeling all that and all you feel is anger. Like, “How could my kid do this to me?”

(23:05):

And it’s like you got to step back from that and go, “We all do that. So now how do I draw them back to God in this moment?” Still give them discipline. They got to have consequences, right?

Dave (23:15):

Yep.

Brian (23:16):

But my goal isn’t to make my life better now and more orderly from what the chaos that they just brought in. My goal now is to move through that chaos and connect them to a Savior and leave that impression.

Dave (23:42):

All right. Another great day with these three guys. Man, I think this is some stuff that literally can change your legacy and we’re going to be back tomorrow. We’re going to do one more day with these guys, but if we can help you, just go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp and we will give you resources that’ll help you be the dad and mom you want to be.

Ann (24:02):

Our vision at FamilyLife is every home, a godly home, and we need your help to get there. And when you become a FamilyLife Partner, your monthly support makes that vision actually possible.

Dave (24:15):

Yeah, you’ll get access to exclusive updates and events and the chance to join our partner’s only online community. But more than that, you’re helping change the future of families. So the question is, will you come alongside us and alongside families in need?

Ann (24:31):

And you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and read more about it and become a partner. Just click the donate button at the top and again, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave (24:45):

FamilyLife Today is a donor supported production of FamilyLife®, a Cru® ministry, 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

If you’ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?

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