Old Testament Women Who Pointed to Jesus – Nana Dolce

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Old Testament Women Who Pointed to Jesus

Guest:Nana Dolce

Release Date:October 16, 2025

Nana (00:00):

I think in Abigail we see this little foreshadow, right, of the one who will turn away God’s wrath from us sinners, from us in our foolish sins. And so in these narratives of these women, when Jesus says all of it points to me, we can see it in David, we can see it in Moses, but we can see it in Abigail too.

Dave (00:24):

So today is Women’s Day at FamilyLife Today.

Ann (00:27):

Yes, it is. That’s right. I love Women’s Day.

Dave (00:30):

We’ve got Nana Dolce back in the studio with us. You’ve written a book called The Seed of the Woman. Nana, welcome back.

Nana (00:36):

Thank you for having me.

Dave (00:37):

And I know it’s not Women’s Day, but I sort of feel like I’m just sitting here teeing up a conversation between two women about the women of the Bible.

Ann (00:45):

Well, that’s what’s so interesting. Nana, you’re a mom, you’re a wife, you’re a professor, you’re an author. But you have a love for God’s Word, and you’ve been passionate about going back into the Bible and really putting a highlight on the women in the Bible that often we don’t even see. So that’s why you’re calling it, “It’s Women’s Day.”

Dave (01:07):

Oh yeah. I mean it’s 30 narratives that point to Jesus. And we’ve already talked about several different women. We can’t do all 30, but you previously said that often we hear stories of men.

Ann (01:18):

Your daughter said that. Why does the Bible just talk about men?

Dave (01:21):

Well, here’s what I thought. I preached for 30 years and that was me. I was convicted as like I can remember a few sermons, Ruth, Esther. I preached much more on the men in scripture than I did women. There should have at least been a balance.

Ann (01:37):

And you probably didn’t think what that communicates to a girl or a woman.

Dave (01:42):

What does that communicate? I’ve got two women here.

Ann (01:44):

What do you think, Nana?

Nana (01:44):

Yeah, I mean I think it’s the question that my daughter was asking is if God is using mainly the men, then can he use me?

Ann (01:53):

Me too. That’s my thought too of like, “Well, what’s my part? Can He not use me the way He could use men? Am I not as important and am I not seen?”

Dave (02:03):

Now, have you two women felt that growing up in the church or in Christianity? Have you felt like we can be used but not as much, or maybe you haven’t felt that at all?

Nana (02:13):

Yeah, I’m thankful to say that not necessarily. I shared my coming to faith story and realizing that God made me such a different creature from before I was a Christian to be becoming a Christian and gave me such an appetite for his word. I’m thankful that I joined a church that recognized that. It was an older congregation, and I was this young person who was asking all these questions, attending all the classes, raising my hand, and the pastor noticed and said, “She has a hunger for God’s Word.” And so he encouraged me to go to seminary, and they were happy to give me opportunity to teach and gave me a chance to grow as a teacher. And so perhaps my journey, I think I’ve been encouraged by God’s people to use my gifts and to teach. And so I thank God for that.

Dave (03:06):

That’s beautiful. Do you feel the same thing?

Ann (03:08):

I think there were times that I thought, “Oh, I wish I were a man because maybe my voice would be heard.” But the more I grew in my relationship with Jesus, I think there was such an awe that He loves me, that I’m in per se, how can I be used? And so there’s a submission to Him. “I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything you want. Use every single gift I have, God, but I’ll do anything you want.” So I don’t think I ever had desires to do or to be a certain person. It was like, “I want to fulfill everything You’ve called me to do.” And He has fulfilled that miraculously in some ways. “What? How do I get to do this? I’m not qualified.” And I think that’s beautiful; that maybe we feel overlooked, but can we be overlooked if we’re in total surrender and submission to the King of Kings? He always highlights us in His eyes.

Dave (04:07):

Well, let’s talk about some of the women highlighted in your book from the Old Testament. We’ve talked about many, and if you didn’t listen to previous shows, go back and listen to those. Where do we start? Abigail.

Ann (04:19):

Yeah, let’s talk about Abigail.

(04:21):

Sure; yeah, absolutely. So when we get to Abigail, we’ve already walked through Genesis a little bit. We’ve walked through Exodus with Rahab. The children of Israel we’re entering the land. So now they’ve been in the land, and there is now even the system of kings, and this is when we meet Abigail. With Abigail, there’s a king called Saul that God is going to be moving away and bringing in this younger king named David.

And so when we meet Abigail, Saul is literally chasing David around in the desert, and David is trying to hide from him. David is in the desert with about 400 men. And it says that there was a rich man named Nabal, and his shepherds were in the wilderness. And David protects these men. He’s, literally, like a defense wall, a defensive wall around them. David’s hope is that Nabal would be thankful enough to provide some things for him and his men.

(05:21):

And so he goes to ask for this, and this man Nabal is incredibly insulting. The Bible—his name actually means fool. It means foolish. He is harsh. He’s just—

Ann:

—arrogant.

Nana:

—arrogant, hot tempered and just very mean. And it flames Davis anger. He says, “I protected you. Now, I’m going to kill all of the men in your household.” And Abigail comes on the scene—in the book, I call her like a triage nurse, looking to, “Okay, what do I need to do to calm this down?” It’s very obvious that the salvation of Nabal’s household rests on Abigail’s shoulder. And I love this picture. David has his sword strapped, 400 men, swords strapped riding to kill Nabal’s household. And so this is the army of David coming this way. Now, picture this one woman on a donkey riding to face the anger of 400 swordsmen. This is the picture of Abigail. She takes the provisions that Nabal said he wouldn’t give, and she goes to face David, and it says that she prostrates before David and she says, “Let the blame fall on me.”

Ann (06:36):

Which is insane.

Nana (06:38):

It’s amazing to me.

Ann (06:40):

I’d be like, I know, I married an idiot.

Nana (06:42):

Yeah. She takes the blame for her unworthy husband and says, “Let the blame fall on me.” And because of her wise, gracious word—there’s a passage in Proverbs that says, “A wise word turns away anger, turns away wrath.” She models that. And David actually starts to pronounce the benediction and praise God for keeping him from blood guilt and turns away, goes back into the desert and God continues to ride on and he strikes down Nabal. But in the picture of Abigail, the book says the 30 Narratives that Point to Jesus and her picture, I think we see Jesus in an amazing way. The one who literally rode to face God’s wrath on our behalf and said, “Let the blame fall on me.”

Ann (07:30):

Oh, that’s good.

Nana (07:31):

I think in Abigail we see this little foreshadow, right, of the one who will turn away God’s wrath from us sinners, from us in our foolish sins. Jesus rise forth and the blame is put on him, and God’s wrath turns away from us. And so in these narratives of these women, when Jesus says, “All of it points to me,” we can see it in David, we can see it in Moses, but we can see it in Abigail too.

Dave (08:00):

Yeah, I mean when you tell it the way you did, I’m teary. It’s like, I mean, part of me is amazed at her courage.

Nana:

Yeah.

Ann (08:10):

Well, David ends up marrying her because he sees this woman is wise.

Nana:

Yes, he does.

Dave (08:13):

I’m just thinking when she’s walking forward, and you described it, the swords are ready to be pulled. It’s like the gun is cocked. They probably have them pointed, and she’s walking into that as a little woman. You don’t expect the warrior to be a woman, and yet—

Ann (08:31):

—she is.

Dave (08:32):

—her humility, but courage in the midst of that, changes history. And you’re right, it’s a type of Christ. That’s unbelievable.

Ann (08:41):

Let’s go back to the time of the judges because we skipped Hannah, and Hannah is a pretty remarkable story. A lot of women know that story, but let’s talk about her a little bit.

Nana (08:51):

Oh, I love the story. I mean, I love all of these stories, honestly.

Ann:

Me too.

Nana:

But I do like the story of Hannah, especially, I think I’ve mentioned on a previous day that I’ve dealt with secondary infertility and oh, there’s just so much pain that comes with that. And this was a woman who was barren, and it says that her husband had another wife who literally added insults to injury in reminding Hannah, provoking her about being a barren woman. And so here’s this other wife with all of these children, and here’s Hannah, and she’s dealing with the shame. And in those days, she would’ve literally worn her infertility as shame.

Ann (09:31):

Oh yeah. Because a woman’s worth was found in the number of children she could have.

Nana (09:36):

Yes. And so this other woman is provoking her. What we have in Hannah—because the book deals with other infertile women. What we have with Hannah is the author, the narrator, takes us close enough to hear her whispered prayers. And so it says that she goes into the temple, or where the Ark was, and she is literally weeping, praying to God, and she calls him the Lord of Hosts. That is the first time in the Bible that that title is used for God.

Ann (10:10):

Really?

Nana:

It is.

Ann:

I didn’t know that.

Nana (10:11):

Yep. And the Lord of Hosts, Yahweh Sabaoth, literally means the God who rides before legions of angelic armies. Right? It means the Lord of Armies. And so just picture God in His just/the General of Heaven who rides before armies. This is who she’s calling on. And when I think that that is the first time the Bible gives that title to God, you would’ve thought that Yahweh Sabaoth would have been by the Red Sea or would have been by, when they’re defeating Sisera or some kind of major battle. But it’s this woman dealing with infertility who is calling on Yahweh Sabaoth. God remembers Hannah, and he opens her womb and gives her a son, and she gives this son back to God, and he will be the last judge of Israel and the one who will anoint the first two kings, including King David, her son Samuel, and He’ll give her other kings as well, or rather other children as well. But Hannah’s story ends with this beautiful prayer that Mary seems to pick up in the New Testament, where she’s literally saying He lifts up the lowly and he brings the haughty and the proud He brings down.

Ann (11:28):

Oh, we should read that. That’s such a great prayer.

Nana (11:31):

So it’s in 1 Samuel chapter 2. It’s called Hannah’s prayer. It says, “Hannah prayed and said, “My heart exalts in the LORD; my horn is exalted in the LORD. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in your salvation. There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God. Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed. The bows of the mighty are broken, but the feeble bind on strength. Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, but those who are hungry have ceased to hunger. The barren has borne seven, but she who has many children is forlorn. The LORD kills and brings to life; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich;

(12:30):

He brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; He lifts the needy from the ash heap. He makes them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world. He will guard the feet of his faithful ones, but the wicked shall be cut off in darkness, for not by might shall a man prevail. The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; against them He will thunder in heaven. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth. He will give strength to his king and exalt the horn of his anointed.”

Ann (13:08):

When you read that, what I hear is a woman who’s been in the depths of sorrow, and there’s a depth to her faith as well. She has been in need and torment and sad, and she’s cried to the Lord, and He’s heard her. And there’s this—I don’t know, to me it’s like anyone that has been through some hard pain, there’s also, as they call on Jesus and our Father, there’s this richness and depth to them like, “Oh, you’ve known sorrow.”

Nana (13:41):

Even her calling on Yahweh Sabaoth, right, there isn’t anything I go through that is so small that I can’t call on the God who is the General of Heaven. It doesn’t have to become this big major national thing for Yahweh Sabaoth to move on my behalf. She says in this prayer that God will thunder against his enemies. The Hebrew word for the provoking that Peninnah, the other wife, was doing is literally she was “thundering” against Hannah. That’s the Hebrew word. She was thundering against Hannah. And in some ways, she’s thundered against, right?

I’m reminded, even when it says that those who are low, He raises up to sit with princes. And He lifts them up from the ash sheep. In many ways, I’m remembered of the one that Mary will sing about, Mary’s son, who it looked like it was the end for Jesus. This is a reversal in many ways. The one who had a lot is brought down. The one who seemed to have nothing is lifted up. That is the picture of the gospel. It’s the picture of the gospel. God raises up his Son that they thought they had done away with. He raises him up to sit on His right hand. He is the glorified Lord Jesus. And in the gospel, all of us who lower ourselves and humble ourselves as sinners, we are lifted up to sit with that Prince.

Ann (15:11):

When you were not able to conceive, did you feel like and go to God in that way, like Hannah did?

Nana (15:19):

I have gone to Yahweh Sabaoth and cried. I feel like there’s something about infertility. It’s just so—you can’t do anything about unless the Lord opens the womb and He does it in different ways, but it is His work to do. And there is something that really calls you to cry out to Him and to go to Him in prayer. And I’ve done that.

Ann (15:42):

And your son that you’ve adopted—

Nana:

Yes.

Ann:

—have you felt like, “Oh Lord, you have answered that prayer”?

Nana (15:48):

Absolutely. Yeah. I remember a day, actually. Infertility, I think, is so hard because it’s hope deferred. So each month brings a new hope. And hope can be painful actually. Sometimes you don’t even want to hope because if I don’t hope, then it’s not the evidence of my barren womb is not going to hit us hard.

Ann (16:10):

It’s the same with women that are miscarrying often.

Nana (16:12):

Exactly.

Ann:

Like, “I don’t want to get my hopes up.”

Nana (16:16):

Oh my goodness, yes. And so there’s a passage in Proverbs that says a “hope deferred makes the heart sick,” and so that heart sickness. I remember one month it was just so hard for me and crying, crying out to the Lord. And I remember there was a particular name that I wanted to name this third child that the Lord might give us. And I remember looking down just on a random piece of paper, and there was a magazine that had that name on it. And I remember thinking, “You see me. You see”—

Ann:

What was the name?

Nana:

It’s Ezra. The name is Ezra. And so that’s our son’s name, actually. Yeah. So his name, that’s his name. And so even on that day, in my pain, God knew him and knew the story that He was writing and that He would bring that to pass. So he’s Yahweh Sabaoth, and He hears us as we cry out to Him.

Ann:

That’s so good.

Dave (17:08):

And the son that Hannah had sort of made a difference.

Ann (17:14):

I’d say he did.

Dave (17:15):

Just a little bit. How about you look at another woman, and you think “This is only going to be negative.” You think Bathsheba.

Nana (17:24):

Oh yeah. There’s a lot of negative with Bathsheba. It’s a hard story. Yeah, it’s a hard story. So this David that we meet in the story of Abigail, who turns away from blood guilt because she says, “Hey, don’t do that. Let the blame fall on me,” and he turns back, he will commit the sin of blood guilt in Bathsheba’s story. So Bathsheba was this woman who lived next to the palace. I love digging into her story because sometimes we don’t know enough about Bathsheba.

Ann (17:53):

Yeah, tell us more.

Nana (17:54):

Yeah, yeah. So she was actually politically connected. Her husband—David had these 30 warriors—

Ann (18:01):

—the mighty men.

Nana (18:01):

Yes. Yeah, so Uriah was one of them, but Bathsheba’s father was also one of the 30 men, and her grandfather was Ahithophel who was David’s counselor.

Ann (18:12):

They all knew each other.

Nana (18:13):

They all knew each other. And that’s probably why she lived so close to the palace because she was from a politically connected family. But there’s—it’s springtime and the kings are at war, but David is not at war. He’s chilling in his palace and he’s on the roof. It says he looks down and sees a woman bathing.

Now that bath was actually a ceremonial bath. It says that she had just finished her period. And the Mosaic law said after the menstrual cycle, a woman was supposed to cleanse herself by bathing. So she’s performing this really ceremonial bath. It wasn’t just a bath of luxury, like, “Oh, let me take a bath.”

Ann (18:49):

She wasn’t trying to entice him.

Nana (18:51):

Exactly. And she was cleansing herself. It was not something, it was only something. It was a ceremonial bath in obedience to God’s law. The king of Israel should not have been looking, but he looks and says, “Hey, who is this?”—brings her to him and sleeps with her.

Ann (19:09):

Do you think when she came to the palace, he knew instantly, “Oh, this is Bathsheba,” and made the connection?

Nana (19:15):

Yeah. Well, she says, she asked who she was, and they said, “This is Bathsheba.” They named her father, and they named her husband.

Ann (19:21):

They did name her father and husband.

Nana (19:22):

They did, wife of Uriah, so he knew who it was.

Dave (19:27):

I mean, in some ways, I think of that moment as 1 Corinthians 10:13, God always gives you a way out of temptation. Here it is, David. We are reminding you what you already know, but we’re just putting a pause on it. And he goes forward.

Nana (19:41):

He does; he does. Bathsheba doesn’t say anything in this narrative. The only thing we get from her are three words: “I am pregnant.”

(19:50):

And that’s the note she sends to him. And so he starts to try to clean it up by bringing Uriah, making him drink, but he never goes home to sleep with his wife. And he sends Uriah back to the battlefield with a letter that literally signs his death because they’ll put him in a place where he’ll die. The picture that I get of Bathsheba is what Nathan says to David when he comes. He says, “This rich man who has all this sheep, but he doesn’t take one of his own sheep to feed his visitors, he takes the pet lamb of his neighbor.”

Ann (20:18):

And David is enraged.

Nana (20:20):

Yeah, he’s enraged. And he says, “Death will come to this man.” And he says, “You are that man.” So he uses Bathsheba in that way. He uses her in that way. We never hear her say anything, but when Nathan comes and says, “You are the man,” he tells David, “God has taken away your sin and you will not die, but the baby that you have with Bathsheba will die.” I’m intrigued by that. Why doesn’t David die? Why doesn’t David die for his sins? The Mosaic law said that someone who rapes a woman should die or sexually violates or commits adultery, right.

Ann (21:00):

And you have this innocent baby who will die.

Nana (21:02):

Yeah. But then we read Psalm 51 where you see David crying out in repentance. And that psalm is so interesting to me in light of what he did. He watched this woman and desired this woman who was being cleansed in a ceremonial with a ceremonial bath. And in Psalm 51, he’s asking God to cleanse him and to wash him with hyssop. There will be a greater son that will die. Ultimately is Jesus. The sin that David commits—God doesn’t sweep away anything punishing your sins and then pretending that he hasn’t seen mine. Right? He is a good judge. And every sin I have committed and every sin you have committed will be accounted for. Either you will reject his offer, and you will suffer for it yourself, or he will place it on his son and Jesus will suffer for every single one of those sins. And so David’s sin against Bathsheba will ultimately fall on the head of a much greater son who will suffer, who will suffer for it. And God in his amazing mercy, it is not faithful wise Abigail that goes on to have the seed, but it’s actually Bathsheba.

Ann (22:20):

Who has Solomon.

Nana (22:21):

Yeah. Bathsheba’s son Solomon will go on to bring the Lord Jesus. And Bathsheba is named right there in that lineage that you mentioned at the beginning. She becomes the mother of the long—long ago mother of the Lord Jesus. So even in this story that’s full of so much sin, we see God’s grace. If we’re leaving it on the story of Bathsheba, there’s nothing that you have done that is too filthy for God to cleanse. There’s nothing that you have done that Jesus says, “I will not take on and suffer for it.”

Ann (22:55):

And there’s nothing that has been done to you that God cannot cleanse and remove.

Nana (23:01):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we will see that not only with Bathsheba, but even David’s daughter Tamar, who’s raped because of the sin that’s introduced to David’s household because of this sin. But God can take horrible things, ashes and bring beauty from them. Again, He has suffered in a way that He relates to what you’re going through, can sympathize with what you’re going through. You can sit across from a God who knows because He’s been through it.

Ann (23:33):

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Dave (23:40):

It is totally true.

Ann (23:42):

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Dave (23:51):

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Ann (24:06):

Let’s kind of backtrack about who Tamar is and let’s talk about her story.

Nana (24:11):

So Tamar is David’s daughter. So David is king of Israel at this point. And I think her story reminds us that, oh, some of these stories in the Bible, especially those pertaining to women, can be dark because the Bible isn’t a fairytale where everything is just like a Disney princess movie where it’s just, this is east of Eden. This is thorns and thistles. This is the wilderness before home. And oh, painful things happen and sometimes they happen to women. And so the Bible is not prescriptive in that sense, but descriptive describing the wilderness experience and sometimes the violence that women face as a result. And we know that even in our world today.

(25:02):

So Tamar is David’s daughter who’s actually raped, and she’s raped by her own brother. Her brother, the crown prince, the one that was supposed to succeed David desires this sister, this half-sister, and there’s a cousin that comes to him and the Scriptures describe him as crafty, and I almost imagine the serpent, right? And so he comes probing in the same way the serpent was probing, “Why are you sick? You’re the king’s son. You shouldn’t be sick.” He says, “I love my sister Tamar.” And he says, “Here’s the plan. Pretend you’re sick, and David will come see you and send Tamar to you to make you some cakes. And when she’s here, you can do with her what you want.”

Ann (25:44):

And didn’t he say, “Ask for Tamar.”

Nana (25:46):

Yes. So she comes into his home, and she will never leave the same. He rapes her. When I was in seminary, I worked at a domestic violence shelter in Philadelphia. This was a home for women and children. I was an intake counselor, and I remember days—I worked the night shift—women would come in with bruises, blue and purple faces, telling the stories of the abuse they had encountered in their homes by people who should have protected them. When I read Tamar’s story and that description of her rape, I think of those women. I think of those women. And in the story, David does not punish his son for raping Tamar.

Ann (26:36):

And it’s interesting too, Nana, because it says that son, after it occurred, hated her.

Nana (26:42):

Yes.

Ann (26:42):

Hated Tamar.

Nana (26:42):

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So the Mosaic law said that if you raped a woman, you actually had to care for her, because she had no hope of marriage after that. So you had to take responsibility for her care. And he takes her and literally pushes her out of his home. And she says, “This latter thing of pushing me away is worse than the first.” And she rips her clothes and throws ashes and lives desolate in her brother Absalom’s house. And when David heard about it, he did not do anything. Not only was he a father, but he was also the king. The king should bring justice. And we don’t see David doing any of that. I wonder if the shame of his own sin made him think, “Well, if I did that, how can I punish my son?”

Ann:

—with Bathsheba you mean.

Nana:

Exactly. Exactly. But I love that the gospel is for mothers and for their children. It’s for fathers and it’s for their children. I can say something to my children even if I have struggled with that because my hope is their hope, right? It’s the same. I need Jesus as much as they need Jesus, which encourages me to speak to my kids about their sins because I’m not hiding my sins. We’re all before the Lord but David is quiet.

Ann (27:58):

What do you wish David would have come and done?

Nana (28:00):

Oh, he should have brought justice for Tamar. Absa not Absalom. Amnon was his name should have been punished according to the law, according to the law of God. And Tamar should have been cared for in a way that we don’t see that happening.

Dave (28:17):

I just got to say, as a husband and a dad, a man, the only man in the studio right now, we can do this. We can be passive. It’s almost the sin of Adam in the garden, just being passive even with Eve when the snake came. He knew the truth, and he just watched. As a dad, as a husband, it takes courage to say, “No, I need to step in. I need to confront my son. I need to have a conversation. I need to protect the women in my home. I need to protect the women in every home in our culture.”

Again, I’m just stopping just for a second because I know men are listening, saying, “Guys, it’s up to us to step up. That should have never happened ever. And then once it did, it should have been dealt with quickly by a man who was called by God to protect that woman and discipline that son.”

Ann (29:10):

It’d be so interesting too. These are things you don’t really think about, but I mean, David married a lot of women, and he had a lot of kids from these other women. Don’t you think they all talked about it?

Nana (29:21):

Oh, I’m sure they knew.

Ann (29:23):

I’m sure they did too. And I’m sure the mothers and the moms were distraught and angry.

Nana (29:28):

Sure. Yeah. I’m reminded of a father who never fails to do that, and thus the father that I pointed these women to in the domestic violence shelter where I worked, I had a chance help them to see a father and a protector who doesn’t fail.

It’s amazing to me that even in this kind of violation that Jesus can sympathize with us. I mean, just imagine how they stripped Him and hung Him naked on that cross. That kind of violation that God would send his son to redeem a woman like Tamar and the ones that I ministered to in this shelter, that this is the extent to which God will go in redeeming these women.

Tamar would probably never marry again because she wouldn’t be a virgin. And yet there is a King who welcomes women into His court, not because of their purity or virginity, but because of the righteous, the purity he gives them through his righteousness. That makes us beautiful. That makes us beautiful.

Ann (30:35):

So good. I remember being in downtown Detroit in a van where a friend of mine would take lunches and products and prayer into the streets of Detroit, and the entire city of prostitutes, homeless knew her van. And so she’d pull up to the curb, and she’d have all these people come to her and she would say to them, “How can I pray for you tonight?” And I remember being at the passenger window one night when a prostitute came up to me and she was crying, and I didn’t know her, but this woman knew Donna. They called her Ms. Donna. And I said, “How can we pray for you tonight?” And she said, “Oh, Ms. Donna and Ann, my sixth-grade daughter was raped today at school, and I don’t know what to do and I need you to pray for me.” And I thought, “Who knows why this woman is living on the streets doing what she’s known.” I don’t know her story or her background, but I do love that she asked for prayer, and I do love—I prayed for her—but I do love that God heard that prayer. And it’s like when we’re hurting and we’re distraught and things have been done to us, God hears us. I think sometimes in our anger, we can neglect going to God when He’s the one who can meet us right where we are.

Nana (32:00):

Yeah. The darkness of these stories in the Old Testament and these women shout for the seed of the woman. When it gets so dark, we want light.

Nana (32:10):

They shout. So in the same way that God kept that promise to Eve in the garden in bringing Jesus that first time, his first advent, the darkness of these stories of a sixth-grade girl being raped, they shout for God to keep his promise, for Him to come again and to make all things new. And for us to see the foretaste of that coming through stories of redemption, through her healing, right, through the compassion that Christians show, that church would be a light that says “Yes, He keeps His Word.” And there is another second. There is a coming when there will be no more death and pain and violation of children. We want to see that day.

Ann (32:52):

For sure. Let’s go now to a woman that had a negative impact. So let’s talk about Jezebel.

Nana (33:02):

Jezebel—in my book, I actually have Jezebel with Athaliah. I think Jezebel’s name is known. A lot of people know Jezebel, but I don’t know—I don’t know that we know the details of her or her life.

Ann (33:14):

I don’t think we do either.

Nana (33:16):

So she was married to King Ahab, and so she was actually a queen in Israel. By the time we get to Jezebel in the book, we know that Israel is two nations. There’s a Northern Kingdom and then there’s a Southern Kingdom. The Northern Kingdom was just random kings, right? The Southern Kingdom was the line of David, but in the north, it was just random kings, one after the other. And all of them were wicked. And Ahab was one of the worst.

Ann:

Horrible.

Nana:

Horrible. And he had his wife to help him in that.

Ann (33:50):

When I read this story of Jezebel, she must’ve been powerful.

Nana (33:54):

Oh yeah.

Ann (33:54):

Because she’s influencing Ahab and all kinds of people in such a negative way. And I usually will say that as women, we can carry a lot of power and influence, and we need to be careful how we wield it. Because this girl, she was negative.

Nana (34:12):

And she really was the one who was behind the scenes in a lot of ways. So she was the daughter of the king of Phoenicia. Her father worshiped Ba’al or Baa;. He must have been a good discipler of his daughter because she took her father’s god into Israel and would kill the prophets of the Lord and would really—but the one story of Jezebel that we don’t often know is this story of Naboth. He had this vineyard that Ahab wanted. He did not want to give it to the king because the law said that you should not sell your land.

When Jezebel heard that she wasn’t going to applaud him for keeping the law but came up with this whole scheme to kill him and to take his vineyard, and she does that.

The story of Naboth really reminds us of the same kind of betrayal of an innocent man and killing him that we even see with the story of Jesus. But one of the things I wanted to point out with Jezebel is she had a daughter and her daughter’s name was Athaliah. And if her father trained her well, she must have trained her daughter well. Because Athaliah, in a lot of ways, was even worse than her mother Jezebel. She married into the Southern Kingdom, King Jehoshaphat, who actually is one of the good kings—

Ann (35:26):

He’s a good guy.

Nana (35:27):

He made this wrong move of marrying his son to Jezebel’s daughter. He married his son to Athaliah, and she became queen mother in Judah. When her husband died, and then her son died, she saw it as a chance to take over. So she killed her own grandchildren. She murdered the entire line of David except for one little boy, Joash, who was hidden in the temple. She didn’t know Joash was alive. And so she reigned in Judah until Joash was six years old, and they brought him out and they killed Athaliah.

When I think of Athaliah’s story, it reminds me how all throughout the Bible, it’s like the serpent, the seed of the serpent is rising up to try to swallow God’s people. We see that with Pharaoh. We’ll see that even later on in the story of Esther. But it never works. We talked about the remnant. God always preserves someone. The enemy might think that he has, that he has it under control, that he’s kind of covered the bases, but God always, always keeps a remnant. You can’t overcome God’s purposes. You can’t overcome God’s purposes.

And so Joash comes and Athaliah is killed. Jezebel is thrown out of a window, and it encourages me to know no matter how bad it gets, this story reminds me actually of the church, places where Christians are persecuted. And it can be very hard to be a believer in some places right now.

Ann (37:06):

It’s hard to understand “Why God?” and “Where are you, God?”

Nana (37:10):

Yeah, yeah. Our family, actually my little family of five, we pray for the persecuted church every night. We have a calendar that kind of tells us who we can pray for from a different part of the world. And some of those stories are so hard. But God preserves a remnant. His power shows up strong when the enemy thinks that he has it, that he has God’s people. And so may he prove that, even today, in places where Christians are persecuted. We see that in the story of Jezebel and Athaliah and may we see that even today.

Ann (37:42):

I remember watching, I forget where that was, but it was about the church in Iraq and the persecution of the people. And one woman was being interviewed, and she said, “Every day I would go outside knowing that I could be killed today because I’m trying to spread the gospel of hope. I’m trying to lead a Bible study in the underground church, and I know every day that I could be killed for my faith. And I willingly will do that because I know this life is not for long.” And they ended up moving to the United States, and after a while she was interviewed again and she said, “I told my husband I feel like I need to go back.” And the interview got the person interviewing her asked, “Why would you want to go back?” And she said, “Because my faith was so alive. It feels like the church here has fallen asleep.” And I remember thinking like, “Oh, it is easy in the United States to feel like we’re not as persecuted. And so we don’t have this need in the way maybe other people do.” I love that you’re praying for the persecuted church.

Dave (38:47):

Well, we have to get to—The Seed—

Ann:

Welcome to the table of women.

Dave:

—of the woman is Elizabeth and Mary—

Nana (38:58):

Yes.

Dave (38:58):

—the last two. So yeah, take us there.

Nana (39:03):

So we come into the New Testament with the last few chapters of this book. And when we come, there is darkness and there is silence. There’s been 400 years of prophetic silence, no new revelation from God. Israel, because of her idolatry, went into exile and a remnant came back into the land, and they are praying to God and there is silence.

And God answers in a remarkable way. And so this promised Savior all the way in Eve, all the way in Genesis that he makes to Eve, there’s a day when He comes to an old woman named Elizabeth, right? It says that her and her husband, they were Levites, they were righteous. And you would think that being righteous means God answers all your prayers and there’s no issue in your life. But they are barren. They’ve prayed for years and no children.

Ann (39:59):

How old was Elizabeth?

Nana (40:00):

Oh, it says they were old. It doesn’t give an age, but it says that they were an old couple, and they were righteous, and they were faithful. It reminds me, even when I’m hoping for something and that prayer hasn’t come, may God help me to persevere in living right before him and not charging Him of wrongdoing but living right before Him.

But there’s a day when her husband goes into the temple and there’s an angel. He says, “Not only am I sending you a son, but this is the son that will prepare the way for ‘The Son.’” I mean, no wonder; we could have blamed Zachariah for not believing it, but it was big news. He can’t speak. He’s made mute because he doesn’t believe. He doubts it. And he goes home, and Elizabeth conceives, and she goes into hiding for the first two trimesters of her pregnancy, for those first six months. She, to me, is a little picture of Israel. She literally sits in silence. Her husband isn’t speaking, remember. Her husband is completely silent. She’s in hiding. And so it’s just silence. This was Israel 400 years of silence.

(41:11):

But then one day—

Ann (41:12):

It’s like COVID when your spouse can’t even speak and you’re pregnant.

Nana (41:16):

Absolutely. So one day in the courtyard of her husband walks in Mary and the prophetic silence breaks with singing. Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit starts to prophesy and says, “Blessed are you among women.” And Mary picks up this Magnificat. Just imagine that scene of these two pregnant women.

(41:40):

An old woman six months along and this young girl who probably just has an embryo developing in her womb. And the prophetic silence breaks with singing of these two women. Mary singing a song that sounds like Hannah’s that says, “The lowly, the despised, God lifts up,” because you’ll remember, Mary was a nobody. She was from Nazareth. Nazareth was a nobody town. Nobody was thinking anything of Nazareth, but this is where God chose to send his Son. He uses the despised, the ones we don’t think of, and He shows that He’s the One that’s the Glorious One ultimately. And so these two women sing, and within months the seed of the woman, Jesus Christ, who will crush the head of the serpent and reverse the curse will be born because God keeps his promise no matter how long it takes.

Ann (42:38):

And let’s just talk about for a second. This was no easy thing for Mary.

Nana:

Oh no.

Ann:

First of all, I mean she conceives through the power of the Holy Spirit, but she’s living in a little village. Can you imagine—

Nana (42:51):

—the scandal.

Ann (42:52):

—the scandal that would just go along with her name forever? I mean, it’s not like, “Oh, look, there’s Mary who’s the mother of the Messiah.” What do you think they would’ve said?

Nana (43:03):

Yeah. And even the threat of death, not even just scandal. The scandal followed her but there was even the threat of she could have been killed for this. God comes to Joseph, her betrothed, and says, “This is of me. I’ve done this.” And he decides to marry her because God speaks to her. But her life really could have been in danger. Which reminds me that sometimes the things God is asking us to do isn’t always easy.

Ann:

No.

Nana:

It’s not always easy. Even the story you told of the woman living in Iraq, I think you said, it can be life threatening, but we live not for the dot of today, but for the line of eternity. Right?

Dave (43:43):

Again, it takes me back to, I’ve said it a couple times, the courage of women. I have to admit you gals are so much more courageous than us men.

Ann (43:53):

But it’s more than courage, Dave. It’s the faith.

Dave (43:56):

Well, it’s faith—no question. It’s belief. But for her to step forward—all these women you’ve talked about, every single one of them, there’s an amount of courage that a lot of us men do not have. I marvel at it because it’s inspiring to me. And I just want to say, “Way to go!” again to the women. And we just talked about a few in the Bible, but wow, I want to have the courage of my wife. I want to have the belief of my wife.

Ann (44:26):

You totally do. You’re amazing.

Dave (44:27):

It’s been inspiring to listen and hear, Nana, the way you talk about these women. I’m inspired. I want to go back and read every passage again. And you mentioned earlier that you have women in your life that you, as you think through, have inspired you.

Nana (44:46):

Yeah.

Dave (44:47):

Can you end with one?

Nana (44:47):

Absolutely. I want to talk about my great grandmother. Her name was Nana, as well. Her name was Nana Akoto was her name. And so this was a woman who lived in Ghana, a poor woman. She married a man who unfortunately was not faithful to her. He had other wives and had children with her that he did not care for. And so I think they had 11 children. She had a lot of children and some of them went hungry because she just didn’t have the means to care for, to care for all of them. But she lived in a place at a time where she did not know about Jesus. And so her trust was in these idols, these ancestral idols is who she was looking to. And she suffered so much. Her daughters—I want to say she had about six daughters, and most of them, five of them, died giving birth to children.

(45:40):

So one after another, her children would die in childbirth. A neighbor started to kind of gossip and say, “Well, what are you doing for your children to be dying in childbirth?” And there was a day when a neighbor came to her, a neighbor came to her and said, “These idols are not helping you.” And they told her about Jesus. They told her about a God who was able to help.

And my mother tells me this story that my great grandmother went and just put herself before—there was a church that she eventually found. And she went and she lay at the altar and said, “Jesus, if You’ll have me, then take me. I’m yours.” And she never turned back. So as a very little girl in Ghana, I have a memory of my great-grandmother. I remember she was really wrinkled. I would be looking at her hands, and they were so wrinkled. I was like, “Oh, I don’t want my hands to look like that.” But she always had her Bible.

(46:35):

And she would sit in this little chair, and she would rock reading her Bible. Her Bible was in Twi, which is the dialect of the Ashanti people. And she had her little Bible in Twi, and she would always read her Bible. And that’s the image I have of my great grandmother. Her children, my mother’s generation and my generation, everybody stopped dying in childbirth when she came to Jesus. And so the ones that had their children in Africa, no one died of childbirth. We that have had children here, we can thank the medical system but ultimately God heard her and helped her. And no one has ever died of childbirth after that day when she committed herself to the Lord. And so I thank God for the faith of my great-grandmother. When I think about women whose narratives point to Jesus, I think of Nana Akoto whose story, when she tells it, points to Jesus. And I pray that my children can say the same of me and that we would have many generations of women whose stories point to Jesus.

Ann:

You will.

Dave (47:36):

That’s beautiful.

Ann:

Thank you.

Dave:

I mean, the seed of the woman is still going.

Ann (47:39):

Hey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode—

Dave (47:45):

You better like it.

Ann (47:45):

—just hit that like button.

Dave (47:47):

And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe—I can’t say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.

Ann:

Like and subscribe.

Dave:

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

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